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Does the Internet Create Lynch Mobs?
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
@ Sold- I understand the difference between you saying that they deserve it, and you saying that it should happen.
Deserve- morally, you feel the response is justified.
Should not happen- Despite being justified, you don't think that it would be effective, and you don't feel that an adult should mete out such a punishment.
Based on your statements, I have questions:
1) Do you not believe that a child has diminished decision making capacity, when compared to an adult? Morally, I mean- do you think that a child should know how to make the best decisions the same way an adult does, and be held to the same standard when they don't? If a 5 year old takes a piece of candy from the store, should they go to jail? If a 10 year old spray paints a car, should they be charged as an adult, and sent to an adult correctional facility?
2) Why do you feel that morally, people deserve to have punishments significantly worse than their transgression? How do you decide a scale. If they are verbally abusive, they deserve to be hit? If they, as 13-year olds, hit someone do they deserve to die? What is the scale of escalation? Is it based on how much damage they do to the person? Because she feels that their punishment should be to be kicked off the bus and kept out of sports for the year.
3) Why do you feel that it's wrong for an adult to hit a kid, but ok for one kid to hit another kid? Is it the size difference? Is it because an adult should be old enough to know better? If it's the second one, doesn't that mean that an adult should be old enough to know better than to think that they deserve it, as well as knowing better than actually doing it.
4) In other threads, when I have advocated doing things for the greater good, like protecting freedom of speech and the like, by allowing people to speak even though I don't think their particular message deserves to be said, you have attacked my argument by saying that if I was morally objective, I would never advocate doing or allowing something I find morally objectionable, and would never refuse to act in the way I though might be morally justified for other practical reasons.
Yet in this thread, you think they morally deserve to be hit, but don't think it should be done because it won't have an effect. Why is that kind of argument acceptable here, but not when it applies to other laws like freedom of speech?
Post by
Adamsm
As an adult, let's say, I'm riding on the bus with my kids, I'd tell the bus driver to stop the bus so that I could throw them off. I'm not gonna tolerate that kind of behavior.
But you don't have the right to do that; only the bus driver does and if you attempted that, the parents of the kids could easily charge you for doing that.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
As an adult, let's say, I'm riding on the bus with my kids, I'd tell the bus driver to stop the bus so that I could throw them off. I'm not gonna tolerate that kind of behavior.
But you don't have the right to do that; only the bus driver does and if you attempted that, the parents of the kids could easily charge you for doing that.
They're also children whose supervision has been remanded to the school system until they are returned home. They're not allowed to make them "get out and walk" in a random location, because that's endangering the welfare of a minor- they could be kidnapped, or at the very least left with no way to contact their parents or find their way home.
Post by
Rankkor
I know those questions weren't for me ,but I feel like I should answer them anyways, since my stance in this isn't as similar to Sold's as it appears.
Sold, don't get this as an attack against you, you have your right to take your stance, I'm simply clarifying mine.
1) Do you not believe that a child has diminished decision making capacity, when compared to an adult? Morally, I mean- do you think that a child should know how to make the best decisions the same way an adult does, and be held to the same standard when they don't? If a 5 year old takes a piece of candy from the store, should they go to jail? If a 10 year old spray paints a car, should they be charged as an adult, and sent to an adult correctional facility?
Children by default don't know right from wrong, they just act. And its our responsibility to teach them what's wrong and what isn't. Its also our responsibility to ENFORCE those lessons as harsh as required to ensure they don't ignore them or replace them.
Thus, if a child commits a crime such as stealing a candy bar, in stern voice tell them that's wrong and not to be done again. If he ignores the first warning, the second time, its not just a warning, its also a punishment of some sort. Not necessarily physical (those should be reserved for the most extreme cases) but yes a punishment like being grounded, or no allowance, or no TV/music/videogames/sports ect. In other words, deprive them of something they crave, to show them that wrong actions carry consequences.
If after this they continue ignoring the lesson, harsher responses must be implemented. Again, physical and corporeal punishment should be reserved AS A LAST RESORT ONLY. I don't really think beating some sense into them will work. And more often than not it creates more damage than it fixes.
2) Why do you feel that morally, people deserve to have punishments significantly worse than their transgression?
Absolutely not.
In my book, Disproportionate Retributions border on tyranny and oppression. People need to be held accountable for their actions, but the reprisal has to fit the severity of the fault NEVER exceed it. Its "Eye for an Eye" not "Face for an Eye".
3) Why do you feel that it's wrong for an adult to hit a kid, but ok for one kid to hit another kid? Is it the size difference? Is it because an adult should be old enough to know better?
Because I don't believe in oppressing someone weaker than you. For the record, I don't exactly believe "its ok" for a kid to hit another kid. I believe its ok for people to fight back. To exercise their right of self-defense.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I have NEVER said it was as valid. I said it needed to be protected legally for a long list of reasons having to do with the protection of other people's viewpoints. Never did I justify, or say it was ok. I think that the reason you and I have such problems debating is that often you don't understand what I am saying, and I can't even debate the point because you're missing it. If you read these things carefully, you'll get a better idea of what I mean, and then the conversation will be much more civil.
In terms of children bearing no responsibility, I agree that that's not entirely accurate. But at the age of 13 a child is not as aware of the possible consequences of his actions as an adult, and isn't taking them into account. They deserve to be held accountable, and punished, so they can feel the consequences of their actions, but not harmed for being obnoxious.
Very few people are going to agree that someone who is verbally abusive, especially a child, deserves to be physically harmed. Our moral code would say that this is wrong, because it steps over the line. Yours may not, and that's something that we can disagree with as a matter of opinion. I would like to point out that, of all the posters in this thread, though, you seem to have a more prominent history of aggressive and vulgar (censored though it may be) language than the rest of them. Do you think that, if you curse people out on the internet, that you deserve to be physically harmed as a repercussion? Not that we should do it, but that you deserve it?
EDIT: Also, I feel like some of the questions weren't quite answered:
3) But why would it not be fair for an adult to? Is it because of the size difference, or because adults should know better?
4) So then do you agree that there are some things that might be justified, but shouldn't be done because they would either have negative consequences, or do no good?
Post by
Adamsm
All I'm saying is that if you treat another human being like that you deserve to have your teeth kicked down your throat, I am not speaking about anything but this type of wrong doing, so any worse actions and my punishments for those actions are irrelevant.Then you should accept that the laws will be brought against you for doing so.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Not like I actually meant any of the crap I said to people back then, 90% of the time I was angry when I was posting.Being angry is not an excuse.
Post by
MyTie
Why do you feel as if you are a good judge as to who does or does not deserve physical violence? What are your qualifications for that position?
Post by
ElhonnaDS
But that's just it, Sold. Kids don't think about things very deeply- they get angry, they get angsty, they say mean, dumb things. And then they grow up and a lot of them realize it was wrong. And as adults, our job is to show them as early as possible that it's wrong. If someone had, hypothetically, come and hit you for saying what you did, do you think that would have made you realize you were wrong, or would it have enraged you even further, past the point of caring whether or not you were wrong? Wouldn't you have been so focused on the injustice of them hitting you over some stupid words, that you wouldn't even be thinking about how they felt about what you said?
If we were talking about adults, I would think people would have a much stronger argument. I don't think someone who is 20, or 25 is anywhere near as moldable or able to gain new perspective on something like bullying as a child is. But these were kids.
And, in answer to your question, I have both been verbally harassed, and seen it happen. When it happened to me, I was a child, and I'll agree it made me pretty miserable. But as an adult, I don't think it justifies physical violence or threats of physical violence- especially against children. The one time I remember seeing someone else getting harassed on the bus, in Middle School, I stood up and told them to "Shut the F up and sit the F down." And they did. Because it doesn't take a beating to take kids to task for mouthing off. It sure as heck doesn't take death threats.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
I was bullied a lot in school; I didn't hit back because it wouldn't have made a difference. Being hit doesn't work; it just makes things worse.
My town is near one of the worst Indian reserves in Ontario, and if you ever made the mistake of trying to stand up to a group of Natives who were bullies, you'd get a beat down at school and anywhere else they'd find you.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Ok- So you're making the judgement that the yelling, screaming, put-downs, etc. that I experienced isn't the same as the verbal abuse you suffered, based on....what, exactly? You really don't know anything about me, about the incidents I am talking about, etc. You have no information with which to make that assertion.
Other than the fact that what I am talking about with regards to the other person happened on a bus. So if you're judging that it isn't that serious because it was on a bus...and these kids did what they did on a bus...
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
And hitting them won't help either; if anything, that would make them hit you even more.
Edit: Hell, for that type of person, hitting them just makes them feel justified in what they are doing.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Then tell me Sold; how is it that random strangers threatening to kill them, mutilate them, and beat them to death is suppose to be a 'good' thing for these children? Since having something like that happen would just screw them up that much more.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Ya, I don't think you guys understand what I mean. I'm not talking schoolyard bullying here. Like, have you ever been in your own home and been the target of, or at least witnessed physical or verbal attacks? I honestly don't think you have, or else you wouldn't be saying that words are always the solution. You're not going to tell such people to be nice and magically make everything better.
Well physical violence in response to physical violence is an entirely different situation. That's apples & oranges. If someone is physically attacking someone, they deserve a physical reprisal. I agree with that. If a child is being verbally abused by an adult, that's a much more serious matter than schoolyard bullying.
But the case we're discussing IS schoolyard bullying. That woman wasn't physically assaulted. She wasn't being abused by someone whose care she was in, or in her own home. Three punk kids mouthed off at her at school. When she reported it, they would have been punished, and she would have been content with typical school punishments- that's what she said- she wanted them off the buss and excluded from sports.
What you have been advocating, is that physically harming someone and making them feel threatened in their own home is JUSTIFIED. That an adult verbally abusing a child is JUSTIFIED. If the child has engaged in schoolyard bullying. All of this history that you claim we can't understand, and was so much more horrible than schoolyard bullying- you think children DESERVE to be treated that way for mouthing off at school. Those were your words. You are agreeing with everything that happened to you as being a morally acceptable way to treat a child (even if they shouldn't do it because it won't do any good), if they are verbally nasty to people outside the home.
So think about that. Do you think you have a right to be angry about all the abuse you're describing? Do you think you deserved it morally, since you did engage in some "schoolyard bullying" on the internet? Or are you outraged that someone would physically abuse you, would threaten you in your home, and that an adult would verbally abuse a kid? In this thread, you're the person justifying the actions of the person who hurt you, and I'm the one saying that as a child there was nothing you could have done to deserve that.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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