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Default sort order is counter-productive.
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Post by
Seegtease
You chose to keep dying rather than look further down the comments to find alternatives. If you had you might have found other ideas which, had they worked, you would surely have uprated. You did so because you assumed there would be no better ideas below there.
The solution to the situation you were in isn't to bring random low rated comments to the top on the off-chance that they're good, you should'a just kept looking ^_^
A rare pet is up! I don't have time to sift through 4-5 pages of garbage for one insightful post. I'm suggesting a way to fix that (by encouraging voting on new posts by putting a few at the front temporarily). That way, I could find one that worked for me faster. That's what we want, right? Faster results?
And no, before you say it, having a few new posts at the top doesn't slow my search down. If I'm really in a hurry, all I have to do is skip those. If I have time, I'll vote on them. Simple. It's
hardly
intrusive and the post I needed would likely have made it to the front page to be found when I really needed it most.
really think that your reaction is WAY disproportionate to the issue and I also think your assumption that a comment made later is destined to remain low on the page despite high quality is incorrect and presumably based on your own anecdotal experience.
Well, you tell me if I'm really wrong. You have access to some information I don't, do you not? Look at a few places where comments exceed 4 pages and tell me how many of the comments have received no votes at all. Also, look at the date of them. If you can tell me that all the 1s I see are because they have an equal amount of ups and downs and not because they're still sitting at default, and I'll concede.
Post by
asakawa
A rare pet is up! I don't have time to sift through 4-5 pages of garbage for one insightful post. I'm suggesting a way to fix that (by encouraging voting on new posts by putting a few at the front temporarily). That way, I could find one that worked for me faster. That's what we want, right? Faster results?
And no, before you say it, having a few new posts at the top doesn't slow my search down. If I'm really in a hurry, all I have to do is skip those. If I have time, I'll vote on them. Simple. It's
hardly
intrusive and the post I needed would likely have made it to the front page to be found when I really needed it most.
If you're in a rush you'll skip them but if you have time you'll look at them. Currently if you're in a rush you don't have to skip anything and if you have time you can read as many comments as you like. How would a change from the current state help?
I promise you it
is
intrusive. People would go bananas about it. I speak from experience.
Well, you tell me if I'm really wrong. You have access to some information I don't, do you not? Look at a few places where comments exceed 4 pages and tell me how many of the comments have received no votes at all. Also, look at the date of them. If you can tell me that all the 1s I see are because they have an equal amount of ups and downs and not because they're still sitting at default, and I'll concede.
The trouble is that things are WAY more complicated.
I
might judge a comment to be good but that doesn't mean that the comment
is
good and should be higher it means that one person (me) thinks that it's a good comment. So how do you find a good comment that should have more votes? How do you know nobody else liked it?
All I can say is what I said earlier in the thread that people
do
read comments right down to the depths and people
do
rate comments right down below zero. I do see that every day.
Post by
Seegtease
All I can say is what I said earlier in the thread that people
do
read comments right down to the depths and people
do
rate comments right down below zero. I do see that every day.
The question is, do you see them more often in short, one-pagers where someone is likely to just read all the comments, or do you see them in long ones, so you know a person really did some digging to help rate comments?
Post by
asakawa
Well a page with few comments has few comments because it's not a page many people visit. Pages with lots of comments are getting way higher traffic and that greater number is likely to increase the number of ratings made on the page, even all the way down to low rated comments.
Post by
Seegtease
Also, I was wondering about this.
I promise you it
is
intrusive. People would go bananas about it. I speak from experience.
Might I ask what it is you speak of that caused this outrage that you experienced before? Because I just can't imagine people really getting up in arms about it.
Also, if you get so many people who do a bunch of negative ratings just so they can get some kind of site achievement, why don't you just ban those people from rating? Or ban their accounts entirely after a warning or two? Seems like people would eventually get the hint, so people would eventually only start rating seriously.
Post by
Ashelia
Also, I was wondering about this.
I promise you it
is
intrusive. People would go bananas about it. I speak from experience.
Might I ask what it is you speak of that caused this outrage that you experienced before? Because I just can't imagine people really getting up in arms about it.
Also, if you get so many people who do a bunch of negative ratings just so they can get some kind of site achievement, why don't you just ban those people from rating? Or ban their accounts entirely after a warning or two? Seems like people would eventually get the hint, so people would eventually only start rating seriously.
People sadly do not get the hint. In a DB with thousands of active users (let alone millions of people who browse), it was getting to a point where--even considering bans--about 10-15 poeple a day would troll someone. Then we'd warn them or engage with them, they'd try to cover it up, then explode and admit yes they trolled X user because of Y. Another 20-25 would do something similar, like vote negatively on someone a lot, but unintentionally. It was a disaster and took up way too much of the staff and volunteers' time; it's not a path we're ever going down again.
These are rough numbers, but it was easily 10-15 a day of actual warnings and bans; it was horrible.
Post by
hatman555
Also, I was wondering about this.
I promise you it
is
intrusive. People would go bananas about it. I speak from experience.
Might I ask what it is you speak of that caused this outrage that you experienced before? Because I just can't imagine people really getting up in arms about it.
We removed comments being green once. That lasted all of 30 seconds. People like green comments.
Also, if you get so many people who do a bunch of negative ratings just so they can get some kind of site achievement, why don't you just ban those people from rating? Or ban their accounts entirely after a warning or two? Seems like people would eventually get the hint, so people would eventually only start rating seriously.
Oh we do. We have the options to do a lot with the account, and many accounts already can not vote on comments. I even have a couple of accounts that have lost their right, gotten it back through pleading with us that they wouldn't abused the system again, and then gone right back and voted 50 times down on one page in about 90 seconds.
New people join the site every day, and while its getting better, and we find people and control them every day, there are always new accounts. There are always people that come back to the site, see that we added achievements and go for the gold any way they can.
Back on topic.
I posted
this comment
on the
Lovely Charm
page this year. It ended up somewhere in the middle of the 3rd page. I spent a lot of time on it, so I asked my friends on Wowhead, to give it a
little push
. It got 4 votes from my paladin buddies. 24 hours later it was the 4th on the page. Today its #2 following a joke comment. Why did it go up so fast? Cause there were hundreds of people looking for useful information on that page. With some formatting my comment stands out from the rest, and it got votes.
It started on the 3rd page.
It takes time for comments to rise, but if they are good, people will up vote them.
Cheers,
Hat(##RESPBREAK##)136##DELIM##hatman555##DELIM##
Post by
Seegtease
It's pretty sad that people just can't act responsibly with the system... I mean, is there anything special about getting those achievements? Or just personal pride? And how can it be worth it to them knowing they'll be banned for it...? I don't get people.
On Topic:
We removed comments being green once. That lasted all of 30 seconds. People like green comments.
I don't even expect you to remove green posts (though I might advise it, it's another topic), but I'd be satisfied if only ONE new post appeared at the top just for voting's sake. Maybe just as an experiment to see if people really do get outraged over that. It's a little less intense than removing the green. I could see why people would flip out over the green, even if I consider that to be kind of petty of them.
posted
this comment
on the
Lovely Charm
page this year. It ended up somewhere in the middle of the 3rd page. I spent a lot of time on it, so I asked my friends on Wowhead, to give it a
little push
. It got 4 votes from my paladin buddies. 24 hours later it was the 4th on the page. Today its #2 following a joke comment. Why did it go up so fast? Cause there were hundreds of people looking for useful information on that page. With some formatting my comment stands out from the rest, and it got votes.
It started on the 3rd page.
It takes time for comments to rise, but if they are good, people will up vote them.
Cheers,
Hat
Well, you got an upvote from me by linking it. I haven't even tried it, but I assume it works (or I doubt you'd be telling me about it) and I can already imagine how efficient it would be. Though it's only marginally less important than the funny comment above XD
Thing is, I don't feel like I want to "shout out" my comment every time I post one. I'd like the natural process to take place, and the typical (registered) user be able to see my comment (without digging) and rate it up or down to put it in a proper place amongst the rest (be it high or low). Like I said before, due to this thread, I know mine got some attention and it's sitting kind of nicely at 6, and will probably get seen now and more attention. I'll probably do some formatting.
But it's not about my post in particular (just an example), in the future, if I make a post, I shouldn't really have to generate hype at the boards here to get it voted up. It should happen naturally if it's actually good. I know you say it will happen eventually, but the best example you've provided had a little boost (which I don't condemn doing, but it shouldn't be necessary).
Post by
yukonjack
There is one other option I noticed missing from this discussion for the OP to consider, you could have simply posted your comments as a reply to one of the existing green posts which would have effectively put it at the top of page one.
Post by
Seegtease
There is one other option I noticed missing from this discussion for the OP to consider, you could have simply posted your comments as a reply to one of the existing green posts which would have effectively put it at the top of page one.
Yeah, that's kind of a design flaw. Want to be immortalized? Hang on to the leg of a god! I'm pretty sure they don't want you doing it that way, plus I'm pretty sure too many replies get buried.
Post by
asakawa
Have a correction or amendment to a post? Add a reply.
Off topic replies can be reported and removed as well as rated up and down.
Post by
yukonjack
There is one other option I noticed missing from this discussion for the OP to consider, you could have simply posted your comments as a reply to one of the existing green posts which would have effectively put it at the top of page one.
Yeah, that's kind of a design flaw. Want to be immortalized? Hang on to the leg of a god! I'm pretty sure they don't want you doing it that way, plus I'm pretty sure too many replies get buried.
No that really isn't what I meant, in the case of the OP's post about his taming of Ban'thalos I dont see why he couldnt have added a reply something along the lines of "I tried landing on the tree and found it impossible but I did have success..... read his post for the rest.
Also since replies can be voted upon they will either remain there or disapear.
I in no way meant reply to a post on the first page with a completly unrelated comment.
Post by
Seegtease
There is one other option I noticed missing from this discussion for the OP to consider, you could have simply posted your comments as a reply to one of the existing green posts which would have effectively put it at the top of page one.
Yeah, that's kind of a design flaw. Want to be immortalized? Hang on to the leg of a god! I'm pretty sure they don't want you doing it that way, plus I'm pretty sure too many replies get buried.
No that really isn't what I meant, in the case of the OP's post about his taming of Ban'thalos I dont see why he couldnt have added a reply something along the lines of "I tried landing on the tree and found it impossible but I did have success..... read his post for the rest.
Also since replies can be voted upon they will either remain there or disapear.
I in no way meant reply to a post on the first page with a completly unrelated comment.
So you mean link to my comment using a reply to another comment? Might be in bad taste, even if it isn't violating anything. I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing that.
Post by
yukonjack
There is one other option I noticed missing from this discussion for the OP to consider, you could have simply posted your comments as a reply to one of the existing green posts which would have effectively put it at the top of page one.
Yeah, that's kind of a design flaw. Want to be immortalized? Hang on to the leg of a god! I'm pretty sure they don't want you doing it that way, plus I'm pretty sure too many replies get buried.
No that really isn't what I meant, in the case of the OP's post about his taming of Ban'thalos I dont see why he couldnt have added a reply something along the lines of "I tried landing on the tree and found it impossible but I did have success..... read his post for the rest.
Also since replies can be voted upon they will either remain there or disapear.
I in no way meant reply to a post on the first page with a completly unrelated comment.
So you mean link to my comment using a reply to another comment? Might be in bad taste, even if it isn't violating anything. I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing that.
Not link it, actually reply to the comment on your successful method, due to the fact you accomplished it in a different fashion then other posters but still recieved the same result I dont see how that would be in bad taste.
Post by
Seegtease
Not link it, actually reply to the comment on your successful method, due to the fact you accomplished it in a different fashion then other posters but still recieved the same result I dont see how that would be in bad taste.
I'm pretty sure there's a pretty strict character limit to replies.
Post by
yukonjack
Not link it, actually reply to the comment on your successful method, due to the fact you accomplished it in a different fashion then other posters but still recieved the same result I dont see how that would be in bad taste.
I'm pretty sure there's a pretty strict character limit to replies.
As I am also sure your post could have easily been edited to fit within the character limit to comment replies.
Example: I tamed Ban the same way everyone else did except I engaged him here and did this.
Post by
Cordana
I've watched this thread not wanting to get involved, but thought I'd put in my two cents (not deviating from the topic at hand).
The problem with the comment system is that it's treated like a popularity contest. Green isn't necessarily the answer unfortunately... in fact more than likely it's a smartass comment that many people think is funny, which I too find annoying, but tolerate... this is a
community
afterall.
The system in its current state is already at its best to remain a popularity contest... and it should stay that way.
I believe what should be implemented is an additional system. A checkmark system like the Microsoft and Adobe forum support. I'm not saying repeat the post 10 friggin times like Microsoft's forums do, but simply put a checkmark that indicates "this is the answer to completing this". Obviously, in many cases there can be more than one answer.
So essentially there are two ways to vote for comments... one is the "like" system, similar to FaceBook which is voting on the comment itself (already in place), and the other vote is for "this comment helped me complete this".
I would go back to letting the popularity contest downvote away. Then your default sort order is by comments with checkmarks (the answers) and then all the fluff. There are rules though; you can change your vote and rate up/down whatever with the current popularity contest, but you are only allowed to mark ONE post as the answer (yes you can change your mind later to a different comment). After a comment receives X amount of votes as an answer... it gets listed at the top by default with all the other answers. Also bear in mind answers are only for primary comments, not sub comments. Answers DO NOT add reputation since people can change their answers and since in World of Warcraft, indeed that answer can change.
If I may:
http://www.glowchart.com/img/answers.jpg
Doesn't have to be exactly that, but you get the general idea. Maybe put the patch number in there too to indicate when the comment was made the answer. Dunno, just trying to push this forward.
Post by
hatman555
If I may:
http://www.glowchart.com/img/answers.jpg
I'm going to take a bit of time and think this over to give you an answer on how I feel about this idea.
Just wanted to say right off the bat though; I really like the picture ^_^
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
baradiel
.If I may:
http://www.glowchart.com/img/answers.jpg
Doesn't have to be exactly that, but you get the general idea. Maybe put the patch number in there too to indicate when the comment was made the answer. Dunno, just trying to push this forward.
This is a good idea. I was also thinking about getting avatars back but in a different place like the forums.
Post by
Seegtease
One joke per page (if that) isn't really that invasive to me. I don't see the fuss here, personally.
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