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Gun Control
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Post by
gamerunknown
I think there are four reasons to want to own a gun. Two have serious problems, one is flimsy and the other has some justification.
The first is that one wants to own a gun in order to protect their family (I saw in a thread on mmo-champion where someone said that they'd been to shooting ranged and would purchase a gun as soon as first priority as soon as their child was born). This doesn't correspond to reality:
According to the "National Safety Council", there were 489 children between the ages of 0 and 14 killed by guns in 1999 in the US. Of the 3385 gun deaths in 1999 between 0-19 over 200 were unintentional and over 1000 were suicides. I do not see how having a gun in the home effectively protects children.
The second is that one wants to own a gun in order to defend against a tyrannical government: this doesn't bear scrutiny, since the government can produce a propaganda campaign against the populace and presidential pardons can protect lying criminals. The only way citizens could be on a par with their government is if every town hall had a nuclear weapon pointing at capitol hill with a simple majority needed to launch it.
The third is that one uses a gun for sport: that's all very well and good, but shouldn't take precedence over the health of the nation. One isn't permitted to use grenades or mines to hunt as far as I'm aware.
The fourth is that it hampers the ability of an infantry to invade the country. However having a military budget that accounts for almost half of the world's entire military spending may be a contributory factor as well. I'm sure if it came down to it the military could distribute weapons among the populace if there were a threat of invasion... but then there'd be no self-vetting or training.
Edit: I think one is more at risk of their children being killed *due* to having a gun at home than due to home invasion. While knife crime is higher than gun crime in the UK, I think both numbers are lower than the US per capita... Homicides in general are at any rate. Japan has very strict gun control, with shotguns being the only weapon permitted for private ownership (clay pigeon shooting) and has among the lowest homicide rates in the world.
Post by
Alkony
One thing about gun control in the US is the the
default
in this country is that citizens have the freedom to do ANYthing unless it is determined that there is a greater need for society that you not do/have that thing. Laws are passed to make things illegal, not to make them legal.
Take cars for example. They are much harder to maintain and control correctly than your average handgun, and yet literally ANYONE can buy one, assuming they have sufficient funds. To use it on public roads, you have to meet certain licensing criteria established by the government, but if you only ever use it on your own private property then there are no restrictions. This is how 10 year olds are able to drive trucks on their family's farm.
Because of this default, no American citizen has to demonstrate a
need
to own a gun. Merely a desire and sufficient funds. Many states have enacted laws that restrict the ability of people to use/carry them in public, but again, on private property those restrictions are not enforced/enforceable (barring the minimum distance between residences for discharging).
If we start restricting this freedom, it really does become a paradigm shift for the country as a whole. Who determines what we "need"? Do we really need that 64" plasma TV that guzzles electricity? What about a car if we live within 5 miles of work/school and are able-bodied? Designer jeans? It could be a slippery sloe, but it's not a fallacy because the underlying attitude is what keeps us from starting down that slope. Remove that attitude, and there is little to prevent a decent into true totalitarianism, even if it is a totalitarianism of good intentions.
Post by
xlanadenx
I can't help but wonder how you're so sure about how certain people act in a country you don't live in. You do realize that not everybody here owns a gun, right? Hell, I live in Texas and there aren't very many who own a gun and use it outside of hunting. Granted there are gun nuts out there and they go to conventions but there's a convention for everything out there. Anime, furries, video games, Star Trek, Star Wars. There's even a convention for Modern Warfare 3 and only Modern Warfare 3! How much entertainment could you get out of that?
I seriously hope you aren't basing this entire post and your views off of a
film
by
Michael Moore
.
Nope. I've seen plenty more. I've been there (granted, I was only 2 years old, but my parents have told me a lot, we have friends over there). So you're basing a lot of your views on hear-say and on the memories of toddler. Very reliable.
I live in Texas and there aren't very many who own a gun and use it outside of hunting. See, this is what I'm talking about. They aren't made for killing people in any way, but it's still guns. I'll never be able to understand the American gun mentality heh.
I have no idea what you're trying to get at. You don't like that people use them to hunt? Do you think that people go around waving them in each other's faces and shoot each other? Listen, if guns didn't exist, people would find some other way to do harm. But that's the fault of the person, not the gun
I'm not saying that gun control is just a small issue but I think you have your facts wrong.
Post by
Azazel
I can't help but wonder how you're so sure about how certain people act in a country you don't live in. You do realize that not everybody here owns a gun, right? Hell, I live in Texas and there aren't very many who own a gun and use it outside of hunting. Granted there are gun nuts out there and they go to conventions but there's a convention for everything out there. Anime, furries, video games, Star Trek, Star Wars. There's even a convention for Modern Warfare 3 and only Modern Warfare 3! How much entertainment could you get out of that?
I seriously hope you aren't basing this entire post and your views off of a
film
by
Michael Moore
.
Nope. I've seen plenty more. I've been there (granted, I was only 2 years old, but my parents have told me a lot, we have friends over there). So you're basing a lot of your views on hear-say and on the memories of toddler. Very reliable.
I live in Texas and there aren't very many who own a gun and use it outside of hunting. See, this is what I'm talking about. They aren't made for killing people in any way, but it's still guns. I'll never be able to understand the American gun mentality heh.
I have no idea what you're trying to get at. You don't like that people use them to hunt? Do you think that people go around waving them in each other's faces and shoot each other? Listen, if guns didn't exist, people would find some other way to do harm. But that's the fault of the person, not the gun
I'm not saying that gun control is just a small issue but I think you have your facts wrong.
gamerunkown made an awesome post above. Go read/and or respond to it! :D
Post by
xlanadenx
gamerunkown made an awesome post above. Go read/and or respond to it! :D
That great and all but I'm talking about
your
points. Most, if not all, of your assumptions about America and guns are poorly informed.
Don't use his post as a cop-out.
Edit: I did read his post and I agree with them.
Post by
Gone
Are people now actualy admiting that their perception of America comes from the *!@#ing movies? Dude you dont live here, and based on your posts you clearly dont know what your talking about, just quit while your ahead. Nobody thinks your crazy in the US for not owning a gun (outside of perhaps Texas), and Michael Moore is full of #$%^. Like I said its a big country, dont judge all Americans based on a small group of gun nuts.
EDIT:
Hehe
Post by
Azazel
gamerunkown made an awesome post above. Go read/and or respond to it! :D
That great and all but I'm talking about
your
points. Most, if not all, of your assumptions about America and guns are poorly informed.
Don't use his post as a cop-out.
Edit: I did read his post and I agree with them.
Well, I'm a !@#$ty debater/writer + this is not my first language. I barely put 10 seconds of thought into my posts :P
So yeah, I'm gonna retract (that's the word I'm looking for, right?) my previous statements and just go with the aforementioned post by gamerunkown. Because I'm just that much of a $%^&*! :P
Post by
Patty
I've always thought that America's gun laws were too relaxed. I also don't think that people should feel the need to carry a gun in their home to feel safe, which I know is the case for quite a few people, including in the US. Nowhere is ever completely safe, including where I live, but that doesn't mean that I don't feel secure without a weapon on my persons or where I know would be easily accessible to me. Sure, if someone tried to rob us I'm sure there would be makeshift weapons lying around (as almost anything can be used as a weapon if you improvise enough!), but thinking about that doesn't reassure me at all. In fact, that frightens me a little.
In the UK as a whole, knife crime is a generally larger problem than gun crime, and what I've seen consistently reported by police is that if you carry a weapon, you're more likely to be doing yourself harm than good, even if its only there to be used if you need to defend yourself. By carrying the weapon, you carry the statement that you're willing to use it, even if when it comes down to it you may not be, or not be quick/strong enough to strike first. I'm sure that would apply in quite a few instances with gun crime, too.
AK-47 > Knife
That's why I feel safe at home.
Okay? That wasn't really my point at all. I used knife crime because I'm more used to discussing it, but I wasn't making a comparison in terms of guns vs. knives. It was more, guns and knives are both weapons. The point about carrying a weapon applies just as much to strolling through town with a gun in your pocket or a knife there. Again, if you and a robber have a gun and the robber shoots first, you've probably lost. Furthermore, don't you agree that it's at least a
little
paranoid that you feel safe because of the presence of a weapon in your own home?
Post by
Levarus
No. I feel safe, not paranoid.
Post by
Patty
No. I feel safe, not paranoid.
And when you're not near a gun, how do you feel? Particularly unsafe or vulnerable?
Post by
Levarus
No. I feel safe, not paranoid.
And when you're not near a gun, how do you feel? Particularly unsafe or vulnerable?
I feel invulnerable, because I'm always near a gun.
Post by
OverZealous
Are people now actualy admiting that their perception of America comes from the *!@#ing movies? Dude you dont live here, and based on your posts you clearly dont know what your talking about, just quit while your ahead. Nobody thinks your crazy in the US for not owning a gun (outside of perhaps Texas), and Michael Moore is full of #$%^. Like I said its a big country, dont judge all Americans based on a small group of gun nuts.
EDIT:
Hehe
Are you saying that, in the U.S, "gun nuts" are uncommon? If you are,
a
few
sources
say
otherwise
. Now, I wouldn't argue that the average American has a thing for guns and owns several, but the fact remains that the U.S is the most heavily armed nation in the world. There is a lot of "anti"-U.S misinformation spread in European countries (TV-shows and, for example, Michael Moore's "documentary", are to blame here), and I think that's what you're seeing from Azazel. He has a point, though it isn't very well constructed, since there
are
a lot of guns in the U.S, but I feel he should've left out the part with "if you don't own one, people think you're crazy", because that didn't feel like it had any factual base whatsoever
^^
Post by
Gone
Are people now actualy admiting that their perception of America comes from the *!@#ing movies? Dude you dont live here, and based on your posts you clearly dont know what your talking about, just quit while your ahead. Nobody thinks your crazy in the US for not owning a gun (outside of perhaps Texas), and Michael Moore is full of #$%^. Like I said its a big country, dont judge all Americans based on a small group of gun nuts.
EDIT:
Hehe
Are you saying that, in the U.S, "gun nuts" are uncommon? If you are,
a
few
sources
say
otherwise
. Now, I wouldn't argue that the average American has a thing for guns and owns several, but the fact remains that the U.S is the most heavily armed nation in the world. There is a lot of "anti"-U.S misinformation spread in European countries (TV-shows and, for example, Michael Moore's "documentary", are to blame here), and I think that's what you're seeing from Azazel. He has a point, though it isn't very well constructed, since there
are
a lot of guns in the U.S, but I feel he should've left out the part with "if you don't own one, people think you're crazy", because that didn't feel like it had any factual base whatsoever
^^
First off define "Gun nut". Because I don't consider a person who hunts a gun nut, nor do I consider someone who owns a single fire arm for protection, and keeps it locked up the rest of the time, a gun nut.
Second of all define "uncommon" or for the sake of this argument common. Does common mean the majority? 1 out of every 3? 1 out of every 10?
Taking it all into consideration I would say yes, gun nuts in this country are uncommon. They certainly do not represent the majority of the population. And the majority of people who own firearms I wouldn't classify as "gun nuts".
And believe me I am well aware of the misinformation spread about Americans, Im engaged to a girl who was born in the Czech Republic, and I've spent a painful amount of time with her xenophobic family.
I also wanna point out that while we may be one of the most heavily armed countries in the world, if you take proportionate numbers of population into account it's not as bad as some people make it seem.
Post by
Firallon
Someone above made the comparison between cars and guns. Lets take that and run with it. In 2005 there where a total of
43,000
vehicle related fatalities. During the same year there where around 31000 firearms related fatalities, 55% of which where suicides
(Source pg 10)
. Assuming these statistics to be true, lets outlaw cars. Or severely enforce regulations on them. Best yet, lets make it mandatory that you obtain a license before you can operate a motor vehicle to ensure you won't kill or injure somebody accidentally. Oh, wait...
My point is that children who grow up around firearms and have a healthy respect for them usually end up not accidentally hurting themselves. In America, gun safety falls to the hands of the parents, and that's just not good enough anymore.
Education = Safety.
Also, I'd've thought MyTie would be all over this... how bizarre.
Post by
MyTie
Also, I'd've thought MyTie would be all over this... how bizarre.
I'm paying close attention to the debate. I'm more of just reading and learning what people have to say about it, than I am rendering my own opinion.
Post by
Firallon
You just articulate so much better then I do most of the time. Also, your experiences as an older gentleman in the Midwest (assuming, you have some very midwestern views) would add depth to this debate.
Heres an anecdote that scares me:
I'm shipping out for basic training in 2 weeks, and part of the delayed entry program for the Army is doing some physical training with the recruiting sergeants. One of my sergeants has several children between ages 10 and 2 and hasn't began firearm safety with them yet. All of his training is military, and I guess he's nervous about how his kids would react to that type of education. This makes me really nervous, because we have a situation where there are multiple firearms in the house, and the only education is "just don't touch".
Contrast to my uncle, who lives in a backwoods hick town about 100 miles from the nearest Walmart: his younger daughter got her first deer this year, they rarely lock the gun cabinet because from a very young age, the girls learned that firearms are a tool to be used for a purpose, not toys to be played with when the desire hits.
This
is what proper firearm education is capable of. There is no fear, just respect.
Post by
MyTie
You just articulate so much better then I do most of the time. Also, your experiences as an older gentleman in the Midwest (assuming, you have some very midwestern views) would add depth to this debate.
Heres an anecdote that scares me:
I'm shipping out for basic training in 2 weeks, and part of the delayed entry program for the Army is doing some physical training with the recruiting sergeants. One of my sergeants has several children between ages 10 and 2 and hasn't began firearm safety with them yet. All of his training is military, and I guess he's nervous about how his kids would react to that type of education. This makes me really nervous, because we have a situation where there are multiple firearms in the house, and the only education is "just don't touch".
Contrast to my uncle, who lives in a backwoods hick town about 100 miles from the nearest Walmart: his younger daughter got her first deer this year, they rarely lock the gun cabinet because from a very young age, the girls learned that firearms are a tool to be used for a purpose, not toys to be played with when the desire hits.
This
is what proper firearm education is capable of. There is no fear, just respect.
I agree and disagree with you. I have firearms in my house. My kids are taught not to touch them. They are tools to be used, but there is no job I send my kids on that require the use of firearms. The guns have trigger locks, the bolts removed, the bolts disassembled, a locked cable through the slide, the ammunition stored separately, and the keys stored separately from the ammunition and eachother. If a kid finds one of my guns, that kid will have to also find the bolt, and then assemble the bolt, and then find the key for the cable, then find the key for the trigger lock, then find the ammunition. Them finding guns is just not going to happen. I know where all that stuff is and can have a bullet leaving the muzzle in less than 20 seconds, but I am thoroughly trained and knowledgeable. When the kids get older, like adults, and they need to know how to use them, I'll teach them. In the meantime, it isn't necessary. In the meantime, not only do I teach them not to touch my guns, but I make it pretty friggin difficult for them to touch them, and bordering on impossible to use one. I've heard of too many gun related accidents to afford my kids the opportunity to have an accident.
At the same time, I am against government gun regulation, based on pointlessness, and the tendancy for crime to increase in areas with increased gun regulation. Besides, owning a gun is not morally wrong. Shooting someone out of anything but defense is. Make stricter laws for person on person crimes, and more lenient laws for gun ownership itself.
Post by
Levarus
Why do you think the government constantly tries to enforce stricter gun laws? Power. If civilians have no guns, and the only guns are controlled by the government, who benefits from this situation? Bingo. You probably guessed it, the government! Now imagine there were no gun rules & regulations...and
every
civilian controlled a machine gun. Who benefits from this? Nobody. But who loses? The government. Yipppyyyyyy It's like that movie V for Vendetta, the government should fear the people, and not vice-versa.
Post by
Gone
Why do you think the government constantly tries to enforce stricter gun laws? Power. If civilians have no guns, and the only guns are controlled by the government, who benefits from this situation? Bingo. You probably guessed it, the government! Now imagine there were no gun rules & regulations...and
every
civilian controlled a machine gun. Who benefits from this? Nobody. But who loses? The government. Yipppyyyyyy It's like that movie V for Vendetta, the government should fear the people, and not vice-versa.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wAxDMfEGhoY/TI6y4IuY8aI/AAAAAAAAAS8/NCjMIHtSW0E/s1600/Not+Sure+if+serious.jpg
(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##Please don't reply to people's posts with just a meme
Post by
207044
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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