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SOPA... Looks Like It May Be A Scandal.
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Post by
MyTie
The practical application of SOPA is going to be wildly different to what people are afraid of.
For now.
Post by
Squishalot
For now.
Doesn't excuse the irrationality with which people are taking to the topic.
Anyone who tried to contact their parliamentary representative with a demand for them to reject the SOPA bill is, in fact, simply supporting piracy and not dealing with the issue of web censorship. They should be encouraging their representatives to amend the SOPA bill into something that meets all of the needs of the community - something that fairly punishes and discourages pirates and protects online content at the same time.
Post by
Fulgorater
I'm curious why people think this only impacts non-commercial websites. Have you ever stopped to consider that having websites shut down sets a precedent for companies like Apple to shut down Samsung's website for IP issues?
For that precise reason, just like the PATRIOT Act when it passed, it's not going to be the collapse of the internet / society as you know it. The practical application of SOPA is going to be wildly different to what people are afraid of.
...
You just used the Patriot Act to justify something....
ಠ_ಠ
...
At anyrate, GB.tv just posted a nifty video about it all,
over here
Post by
MyTie
Anyone who tried to contact their parliamentary representative with a demand for them to reject the SOPA bill is, in fact, simply supporting piracy and not dealing with the issue of web censorship. They should be encouraging their representatives to amend the SOPA bill into something that meets all of the needs of the community - something that fairly punishes and discourages pirates and protects online content at the same time.
Piracy is like a thief in a market. SOPA is like a nuclear weapon set to detonate in the market. I say we not detonate... that doesn't mean I support the thief. I think you covered every fallacy in the book with that argument.
Post by
Squishalot
Piracy is like a thief in a market. SOPA is like a nuclear weapon set to detonate in the market. I say we not detonate... that doesn't mean I support the thief. I think you covered every fallacy in the book with that argument.
Poor analogy. SOPA is more like the thought police. It's not beyond the realms of belief that the appropriate action might be to place restrictions on the use of said thought police to require warrants and approvals, rather than simply can the bill altogether.
Post by
MyTie
Piracy is like a thief in a market. SOPA is like a nuclear weapon set to detonate in the market. I say we not detonate... that doesn't mean I support the thief. I think you covered every fallacy in the book with that argument.
Poor analogy. SOPA is more like the thought police. It's not beyond the realms of belief that the appropriate action might be to place restrictions on the use of said thought police to require warrants and approvals, rather than simply can the bill altogether.
I'm willing to look into ways to restrict piracy, HOWEVER, if the option is to either allow piracy and stop this bill, or allow this bill and stop piracy, I would take the former in less than a heartbeat. Further, I think a complete and colorful demise of THIS bill would resound loudly in the halls of US Congress and other governments, that the internet should not be regulated in that fashion. That, in itself, may be valuable enough to risk the continued existence of piracy. Further, a completely different bill could be drafted to stop piracy, so the end of this bill is not necessarily the last hope to stop piracy. EVEN FURTHER, this bill, if passed in its strongest words possible, could not end piracy. For all of these reasons, your continued fist in hand pounding make me roll my eyes.
This bill was rushed. It is sloppy. It is dangerous. Make an example of it.
Post by
Squishalot
HOWEVER, if the option is to either allow piracy and stop this bill, or allow this bill and stop piracy, I would take the former in less than a heartbeat.
So if your options are to let the thief continue, or nuke the marketplace, you won't open your eyes to any other option?
I'd rather let the thief continue than nuke the marketplace, but my first and overriding preference is to make something workable, not to choose one extreme over the other.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
gamerunknown
Oh, this is a sort of
rejoinder
to the Daily Mash article.
Post by
MyTie
I'd rather let the thief continue than nuke the marketplace, but my first and overriding preference is to make something workable, not to choose one extreme over the other.
You have no idea what you are up against. You have no idea.
If you were eating dinner on that sinking cruise ship, would you lecture everyone that was trying to evacuate about not wasting food, and tell them to take their dinner with them? Of course you wouldn't, because your overwhelming desire would be to preserve your life. It's not that you enjoy wasting food, it's just in that particular situation, wasting food is such a small issue, it isn't even on your mind anymore. It isn't worthy of your attention.
That's the issue with SOPA. It needs to be made an example of. The danger it poses to the internet's awesome free exchange of information is so phenomenal that it is probably the most dangerous bill to be proposed this year. I feel that internet freedom is even more important than balancing the budget. The internet is the greatest invention of mankind. It is the culmination of all of our efforts to better society. It is, for the first time, a joint effort of all of humanity to put our heads together. The advancement of technology is more important than the US government, more important than the economy, more important than some stolen movies, more important than anything I can think of except human life itself. The fact that you are still worried about piracy in the middle of this let's me know that you don't understand that you are on a sinking ship. You don't understand what is at stake here. The threat we face is so grave, so terrible, that every single other issue on the table needs to be ignored until this threat is killed so completely and so swiftly, that no democratic government on the face of the planet would ever consider something like this again. You are right that piracy needs to be stopped, but you are astoundingly wrong to worry about it now.
Post by
gamerunknown
Pretty much completely agree with MyTie. I don't say half, or even a third of the things in real life as I do online. I'm pretty innocuous IRL. Minor quibble would be that I think NDAA is more important than SOPA/PIPA and that SOPA will push NDAA to the sidelines because it's unlikely any corporations will come out against legislation that won't likely effect them.
Great video
here
though.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
I don't understand why you would voluntarily enter into that risk, when it would be much easier to close the loopholes and propose a bill that just focused on the piracy.
I wouldn't, which is why I'm advocating the significant watering down of SOPA (as opposed to the complete scrapping of it).
That's the issue with SOPA. It needs to be made an example of.
That's the issue with the US. It can't ever find a compromise.
In politics, if someone proposes a new piece of legislation, you have three options:
1) Agree and support the legislation.
2) Disagree and reject the legislation.
3) Disagree and propose changes to the legislation that would result in you supporting it.
There is no point in having a parliamentary system which encourages discussion and sharing of ideas if you're going to simply reject legislation without attempting to come to a compromise. The only time when it's appropriate to reject legislation outright is if you disagree with the fundamental core purpose of the legislation. If you agree with the underlying purpose and disagree with the way it's been implemented, you propose changes to cut out the bits you don't like.
What you and the rest of the internet world seem to be doing is going for (2). Implicitly, that means you disagree with the fundamental core purpose of the legislation, since you're unwilling to come to the table to discuss changes to it.
The idea that SOPA is so bad that it needs to be 'dealt with' is illogical and doesn't fit within a productive parliament. I know you're generally anti-establishment insofar as the Government shouldn't be regulating a lot of things, but from a theoretical and practical point of view, if we were to throw out bad legislation without trying to turn it into good legislation, Parliament would do nothing but chuck bills out all year round, without ever turning out any 'good' legislation, because there isn't the productive discussion to refine and adapt something rough into something good.
That's why I disagree with the stance you and others are taking. If you don't like the fact that a website can be taken down, lobby to have that function of SOPA watered down or removed, or for additional restrictions to be placed on it (e.g. court rulings, as opposed to warrants).
The rest of your post is rhetoric, so there isn't really anything I can reply to there. I would actually think that the control of electricity, perhaps, would be a better invention than the internet. Or domestication and selective breeding of livestock. But, you know, we're getting off-topic there.
Additionally, can anyone read this article, then explain why existing legislation isn't working?
Oh come on - we all know that the majority of downloads from Megaupload are pirated. The actual specific arguments may not be logically well thought through (e.g. not including pirated material in the top downloads = must be pirating), but the facts can't be disguised. It appears that since they were notified 2 weeks ago about something, it's probably in relation to a notice to take down a download or video, where they haven't acted within the last 2 weeks.
Edit: Sorry, just realised what you meant. The reason it's not working is that Megaupload has lasted for years and years being a source of pirated material. It's only now that they've missed a deadline on this particular request that they can be shut down in accordance with existing laws, despite the fact that new pirated material is being uploaded every day. The burden of proof is on authorities to identify and issue cease and desist notices, as opposed to being on Megaupload to offer a non-pirated service. That's the issue.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Squishalot##DELIM##
Post by
ChairmanKaga
SOPA is more like the thought police. It's not beyond the realms of belief that the appropriate action might be to place restrictions on the use of said thought police to require warrants and approvals, rather than simply can the bill altogether.
We had restrictions on the wiretapping provisions of the PATRIOT Act, and today they are gleefully ignored, and those same provisions are now used to justify illegal monitoring in the most trivial of police investigations, or in some cases with no police investigation at all.
We allowed them to infect the system with the tools for this abuse of power, and it can't be taken back. We cannot allow it to happen again with the Internet.
You cannot trust government with any sort of power of this magnitude. Go back and read the writings of the founders of this nation. They firmly believed that government was inherently the enemy of the people and their freedom, a necessary evil that had to be kept in check at all times. The Constitution was written to ensure exactly that. But our lawmakers today completely ignore it. We have given the foxes the keys to the hen house.
So if your options are to let the thief continue, or nuke the marketplace, you won't open your eyes to any other option?
I'd rather let the thief continue than nuke the marketplace, but my first and overriding preference is to make something workable, not to choose one extreme over the other.
You can't make this bill workable. Its entire premise is fundamentally flawed. It violates, at a
minimum
, the First Amendment. When the supposed bastion of freedom and democracy, the United States, considers joining the ranks of China, North Korea, Iran, and Syria in dictatorial control of the Internet,
that is a terrible sign
.
The fact that our lawmakers are even considering it is treason upon this nation.
That's the issue with SOPA. It needs to be made an example of. The danger it poses to the internet's awesome free exchange of information is so phenomenal that it is probably the most dangerous bill to be proposed this year. I feel that internet freedom is even more important than balancing the budget. The internet is the greatest invention of mankind. It is the culmination of all of our efforts to better society. It is, for the first time, a joint effort of all of humanity to put our heads together. The advancement of technology is more important than the US government, more important than the economy, more important than some stolen movies, more important than anything I can think of except human life itself. The fact that you are still worried about piracy in the middle of this let's me know that you don't understand that you are on a sinking ship. You don't understand what is at stake here. The threat we face is so grave, so terrible, that every single other issue on the table needs to be ignored until this threat is killed so completely and so swiftly, that no democratic government on the face of the planet would ever consider something like this again. You are right that piracy needs to be stopped, but you are astoundingly wrong to worry about it now.
^ QFT.
Post by
Asylu
@MyTie
Though I have at times disagreed with you on certain subjects, on this we are total understanding.
The fact of the matter is that the government has in the past and is right now strangling the freedoms we as a country have always had. It started with the Patriot Act, that bill that took away so many for the civil liberties we have had since becoming a sovereign nation, including the right to a fair and expedient trial of your peers.
SOPA will be far worse than the Patriot Act in impacting the average American's life. Heck, not even Americans, but the world's e-commerce. As it is the Patriot Act just puts more hoops for businesses to jump through when shipping into/out of the States. SOPA will make ordering online impossible.
Here is an example.
A Wal-Mart executive is browsing the web when he notices that Amazon.com has several products that are cheaper, even with shipping. He sends a single complaint from his corporate email account to the Attorney General. The intern in charge of reading the complaints yawns then sends out the take down order. Amazon.com is gone. No appeal, no trial, no court date, not even the need for evidence.
If this starts, it is just a short and slippery slope til we find ourselves facing the men with the black bags who drag you out of your bed at night because you have illegal material like Thomas Paine's 'Common Sense'.
And my fear is that there is no stopping it. That this country is so full of sheep that believe the crap being fed to them by pundits on both sides of the political scale that SOPA passes and the Internet grinds to a halt. There will be no more parodies, remixes, or lolcats.
And a world with out cat pictures is not a world I want to live in.
Post by
MyTie
What the heck. I'm on the side of the majority of wowhead offtopic? Wierd.
Anyway:That's the issue with the US. It can't ever find a compromise.This is just not true. The US compromises on nearly all of its legislation. It has to. The only time when it's appropriate to reject legislation outright is if you disagree with the fundamental core purpose of the legislation. If you agree with the underlying purpose and disagree with the way it's been implemented, you propose changes to cut out the bits you don't like.
I can give you three reasons why I reject this entire piece of legislation while still disagreeing with piracy:
1) The US government cannot stop online piracy. It lacks the resources. Any power given to the US government to put limits to what can be done on the internet will not result in an end to piracy. Therefore, why give any sort of that power to the US government? No rewording of this bill will result in an effective anti-piracy law. It isn't as if I'm pro-piracy, I'm just pro-reality.
2) The US government has been flippant in the case of SOPA. It has put something dangerous on the table without really weighing the consequences. In regards to future laws concerning the internet, I want some serious thought put into those bills. SOPA is the perfect opportunity to tar and feather a lousy job by the government and send it all the way back to the brainstorming process. Next time I want them to think before they leap.
3) The US government needs to focus on more important things right now than movie piracy.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
That's the issue with SOPA. It needs to be made an example of. The danger it poses to the internet's awesome free exchange of information is so phenomenal that it is probably the most dangerous bill to be proposed this year. I feel that internet freedom is even more important than balancing the budget. The internet is the greatest invention of mankind. It is the culmination of all of our efforts to better society. It is, for the first time, a joint effort of all of humanity to put our heads together. The advancement of technology is more important than the US government, more important than the economy, more important than some stolen movies, more important than anything I can think of except human life itself. The fact that you are still worried about piracy in the middle of this let's me know that you don't understand that you are on a sinking ship. You don't understand what is at stake here. The threat we face is so grave, so terrible, that every single other issue on the table needs to be ignored until this threat is killed so completely and so swiftly, that no democratic government on the face of the planet would ever consider something like this again. You are right that piracy needs to be stopped, but you are astoundingly wrong to worry about it now.
I feel like you just took every issue I have with this bill and why it should be opposed and then made it sound 10x better. Very well put and I can't agree with it enough.
That's the issue with the US. It can't ever find a compromise.
Can't ever find a compromise? America was b
uilt
on compromises, and if anything we make more these days with a bipartisan system than ever before.
The only time when it's appropriate to reject legislation outright is if you disagree with the fundamental core purpose of the legislation
That's just it, though. I would say the majority of people
do
disagree with the fundamental core purpose of the legislation. This legislation isn't about pirating, it's about censorship. If the bill was just treating pirating you wouldn't have so many powerful websites opposing it.
Post by
432158
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ChairmanKaga
Today's takedown of Megaupload is perhaps the best thing SOPA opponents could have asked for.
Clearly, the media companies can get pirate web sites (even foreign ones) taken down when they
really
want to.
So, why is SOPA necessary? It should be evident now that the only thing SOPA does is allow the media companies to bypass the justice system and due process in the name of their profits. Just point at a web site and send it down the
memory hole
. Considering they can't even get takedowns on YouTube right, the mere thought of handing them SOPA's level of power over our Internet experience is both frightening and comical.
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