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4.3 or 4.3.2 Any DK Spec Discussion Thread.
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Post by
baradiel
Hello! This is a Thread that you can talk about the things that you dont agree that blizzard changed for Death Knight or anything of Death Knight.
I dont like The Death Knight changes cuz they only buffed Blood... They didn't buff frost or unholy.. they only maded a change to blood and they got buffed... omg, more buff for blood....
You can talk anything about DKS here... you can talk here if they need buff or they dont need buff or bloods needs to get nerfed... anything about dks..
Post by
Orranis
Unholy got very significant buffs through fixing Ghoul's crit scaling and and extra 5% strength on Unholy Might. And Frost isn't really in need of any buffs outside of survivability in arena.
Post by
Problimatic
Technically they also buffed all melee passively with the changes to raid buffs llike Blessing of Might where you get 20% attack power instead of 10%. DK dps is in a good spot atm imo.
Post by
CalaelenDT
Not sure why you seem to have such hate for Blood, but the buffs were definitely not unwaranted with Blood DK's being the weakest of the tanks in general. In additional, I can't recall when they buffed Blood before?
Post by
AnrDaemon
It surprising me when you say "they only buffed blood".
From all I've read in patchnotes, they (indirectly) buffed all melee classes, and specifically DPS specs. I hardly noticed any changes in my DK Blood spec, or in my palad Prot spec.
DK Blood would turn out more solid now, though, but it is not like Frost is not viable. It was always squishy on my memory. Quite powerful, but survivability isn't it's strongest side. But I could say the same about most of other classes I play.
Druid cat/bear, bear wins in tough situations, otherwise, Cat is pretty much everything you'd want.
DK Blood/Frost - if anything, I roll as Blood, unless I sure know Frost will be enough for the day.
Would like a prot/ret comparison here, as I only have Prot.
Ench shammy is only exception I can think about. But it's location is in moderate land between tank survivability and DPS raw power. Maelstrom weapons helps alot, but not to the point of winning the day.
Post by
JASP01
1. Unholy got buffed like crazy. Already said, but it needs to be restated.
2. Restating, but... Frost is already a-ok.
3. Blood wasn't really "buffed" too much. It was fixed. They didn't boost our numbers, save for Bone Shield charges (to make it more viable). They just made it so that Death Strike would always heal, and Blade Barrier was a passive. Which is vital. Having to manage Blood Runes -and- hope that you'd always hit -and- getting unlucky at times -and- having to be the only tanks who stacked Expertise... Yeah, we were at a -severe- disadvantage. They just changed mechanics; they didn't really add much. They fixed us, they didn't buff us. Oh, save for Blood Presence. And that was just brought up to scale with the other classes, not to surpass.
4. "Or blood needs to be nerfed..." Um, that is NOT going to happen. Guess which tanking class is and was the hardest? DK. -That- is why we got "buffs". Just to be decent tanks. Before, we were subpar. The -only- thing special about us is that we were crazy-good about solo'ing old content. Big deal. If you managed CD's right (most DK's don't), you were still not as viable as the other tanks. So... Nerfed? We -were- nerfed. That is why they fixed us.
5. "Omg more buff for blood".... More? What? Since when have we been buffed?
Please, please, please, learn what you are talking about before you spew this crap. If you have an opinion, great. But, when everything else points against it... Maybe learn a bit about it first?
Post by
baradiel
3. Blood wasn't really "buffed" too much. It was fixed. They didn't boost our numbers, save for Bone Shield charges (to make it more viable). They just made it so that Death Strike would always heal, and Blade Barrier was a passive. Which is vital. Having to manage Blood Runes -and- hope that you'd always hit -and- getting unlucky at times -and- having to be the only tanks who stacked Expertise... Yeah, we were at a -severe- disadvantage. They just changed mechanics; they didn't really add much. They fixed us, they didn't buff us. Oh, save for Blood Presence. And that was just brought up to scale with the other classes, not to surpass.
I dont know but my friends r saying that DS hits harder, and i agree cuz my friend almost die vs a blood dk really fast...like 2DS and he got to 30%
Post by
Dazzitron
That's been happening in pvp for a while, pve is a different story due to the nature of DK tanking.
Post by
Orranis
3. Blood wasn't really "buffed" too much. It was fixed. They didn't boost our numbers, save for Bone Shield charges (to make it more viable). They just made it so that Death Strike would always heal, and Blade Barrier was a passive. Which is vital. Having to manage Blood Runes -and- hope that you'd always hit -and- getting unlucky at times -and- having to be the only tanks who stacked Expertise... Yeah, we were at a -severe- disadvantage. They just changed mechanics; they didn't really add much. They fixed us, they didn't buff us. Oh, save for Blood Presence. And that was just brought up to scale with the other classes, not to surpass.
Buffs are buffs no matter which way you cut it. More armor and Bone Shield are definitely buffs. Expertise thing is a trade-off, guaranteed heals for a damage loss.
The real problem with Blood isn't actually any change made directly to Blood, but the Vengeance change, which allows them to now hit insanely hard in PvP even with only very minor damage taken. Couple that with being the only tank able to tank while using a two-hand, DPS originally balanced around gemming for Mastery/Avoidance/Stamina rather than Strength (this makes up for Bear DPS, as it's balanced around having high agility), and already having pretty high tank DPS to begin with, it's kind of ridiculous. It's not going to be seen a lot in top-rated threes, but that's due to a lack of mobility and control, it'll be much more powerful at lower brackets.
Post by
503411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
I think this is based on what they bring to the table in raid utility. The one time I can remember DK mechanics being essential to the fight would be on Sinestra for interrupting a certain add through Death Grip, and perhaps Death Gripping a Son of Flame on Ragnaros, though to be honest it's not as effective as any decently long stun. I would actually argue that Hunters had a lot of usefulness in Tier 11, with their AoE slow, but not so much in Firelands or Dragon Soul. Furthermore, and this would effect a ten man group more than a 25 man, they have the ability to choose whatever debuff they want to bring to the raid.
Shamans are... Meh. I'd say the best thing they could do would buff Spirit Link Totem to 20% increased healing and nerf the health redistribution, even if only delaying it, as it's insanely powerful in PvP especially for something that can be cast while silenced.
One way I could see DK utility buffed is change the way Anti-Magic Zone works, either make it 75% but for a very short duration and remove the damage cap or 30% for 10 seconds and remove damage cap, preferably the latter, as right now it's mechanics make it absurdly overpowered at absorbing a single huge hit, but completely pathetic at any sustaiend AoE damage (which we see a lot more of). Making it more like Power Word Barrier might suit it better. Or perhaps instead of 30% for 10 seconds 40-60% for five seconds. Blood could use something similar to it's current four-piece except base-line and not requiring a tank cooldown, but honestly I think Raid-Cooldowns should just be removed from tanks altogether.
Overall, it's not such a big deal. I've seen very few fights where dropping someone for someone with more utility has made a difference.
Post by
AnrDaemon
When you say "buffs r buffs", please do remember that nothing is done in void. And when you point in one direction and say "they were buffed", take a note of the context as well.
Changes don't made out of the blue. (Well, in a sense, they do happen... but still.)
If something was changed, there likely been the cause. Find it and judge from it, not make your conclusions in vacuum.
Post by
Orranis
I said they were also slightly nerfed by the expertise change, but it's just as much a buff as it is a nerf. Buffs, though much needed in this case, are still buffs. We got buffed. We desperately needed it in PvE, but just because that's true doesn't change the fact
we
are performing better than
we
used to. Unless everyone else got a simultaneous buff, I'd say that's a buff.
But most of what I'm talking about is the tank-wide changes to vengeance. With the change to threat they were completely unnecessary and are now making Tank DPS in both PvE and PvP situations brokenly powerful. Outside of situations like Facerage kiting on Heroic Shannox, or weird mechanics like Alysrazor, the tanks should come behind the DPS. At any level of gameplay. And right now I can not only beat certain DPS in my raid group on a boss like Zon'ozz, but if I give up Death Strikes for Heart Strikes and expect healers to carry me a bit more, I could probably take first. It's not going to happen in cutting-edge progression guilds, but it shouldn't be happening ever. Tanks really shouldn't have to contribute that scale of damage to the groups total.
Post by
JASP01
I said they were also slightly nerfed by the expertise change, but it's just as much a buff as it is a nerf. Buffs, though much needed in this case, are still buffs. We got buffed. We desperately needed it in PvE, but just because that's true doesn't change the fact
we
are performing better than
we
used to. Unless everyone else got a simultaneous buff, I'd say that's a buff.
But most of what I'm talking about is the tank-wide changes to vengeance. With the change to threat they were completely unnecessary and are now making Tank DPS in both PvE and PvP situations brokenly powerful. Outside of situations like Facerage kiting on Heroic Shannox, or weird mechanics like Alysrazor, the tanks should come behind the DPS. At any level of gameplay. And right now I can not only beat certain DPS in my raid group on a boss like Zon'ozz, but if I give up Death Strikes for Heart Strikes and expect healers to carry me a bit more, I could probably take first. It's not going to happen in cutting-edge progression guilds, but it shouldn't be happening ever. Tanks really shouldn't have to contribute that scale of damage to the groups total.
We were buffed, but because it was vital. So, were were more or less scaled, save for a few things.
As for Vengeance, they're purposefully trying to make Tank DPS more viable, from what I've heard. Obviously we aren't supposed to be on top (though what you said about Heart Striking is, sadly, true), but tanks are supposed to function as a partial DPS now.
One way they could fix this (I only truly see a problem in PvP) is to make Vengeance more easily dispellable-- let attacks like Purge remove it. Then in PvP, when facing a Tank, a well-timed removal would eliminate the problem. Rogues can already deal with Vengeance, but obviously it isn't enough (and Hunters with Tranquilizing Shot)
The buffs were needed in PVE, but I agree in PVP something needs to be done. If Purge could get rid of Enrage effects (maybe or maybe not only against other players), and we could have other classes do the same (maybe Faerie Fire could inhibit enrage like it does Stealth... might be a bit too OP though; maybe other classes could do the same. I can see Monks in MoP getting another ability).
TL;DR/Summary:
PvE seems to be fine, but in PvP, more Enrage dispells could work.
Post by
baradiel
My question is, why they buffed blood dks if they know that they need nerf on PvP?
Post by
503411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
baradiel
double blood dk's will have trouble wining any comp that has a healer.
^ Thats true lol..
Post by
Problimatic
My question is, why they buffed blood dks if they know that they need nerf on PvP?
Because blood isn't a viable pvp spec? 3s and 5s are the only arenas that matter. Try and find a dk breaking 2200 as blood. Can't find one? Theres a reason for that. They aren't OP at all, the average player is just a mindless idiot who thinks he can stand in front of the dk and melee him and somehow he will die. Trying that strat on a blood dk is a good way to get your ass handed to you. And RBGs? Granted they are better than prot pallys as flag carriers, but they still don't have the mobility of druids or warriors. Which is what makes them shine as flag carriers. I can't possibly see why they would need a nerf for pvp reasons. The only thing I can think of to help people kill blood dks is buff IQ of the average player, unfortunately thats not something Blizzard can help with.
Post by
503411
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Problimatic
I dont agree though that 3s and 5s are the only arenas that matter, you can argue and I will agree that 2s are broken, tbh, they will always be, hard as hell to balance PvP around 2s, but saying they dont matter is not really fair to those that enjoy it.
They don't take 2s into consideration when they balance classes, which is why I said they didn't matter. I enjoy a 2s match every now and then..... Even though they are broken beyond belief.
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