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Live
PTR
10.2.7
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10.2.6
Beta
For those concerned about the new Specs:
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Post by
Azrile
I think you miss the entire point of some of the opposition. The problem isn´t that we won´t be able to do our job, the problem is that we will do it exactly the same as everyone else with our spec.
You use the term ´baked-in´.. what that really means is ´no choices´. Right now, EVERYTHING is baked into each spec. they have baked in, and remove any meaningful choice we used to have in talent trees.
The real problem is that the choices we do have, are either very very obvious depending on if you are raiding or pvping, or else they are meaningless to the role you are currently in.. One of the Moonkin levels has abilities that all turn you into cat form. One of the hunters levels all relate to a skill you rarely use in pve.
Stop with the hypotheticals. Build a moonkin, or a arms warrior.. pretend you are going raiding for the night. Now have a friend do the same thing.. and pretend he is going raiding.. Your characters are going to be IDENTICAL except for maybe 1 or 2 things which are not going to matter at all while you are raiding. Yes, he may take a heal that heals him automatically when he takes damage, you may take a ´click to heal´ ... those are very very tiny portions of your actual gameplay. The majority of the things you will be doing in the raid will be using exactly the same abilities with exactly the same talents.
This is just the the devs being exceedingly lazy at balancing the game. The more identical they make each spec, the easier it is to balance. There are no meaningful choices in the talents because that would require them to balance them. So they give us choices in things that don´t matter at all.
Post by
508201
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ordayc
Stop with the hypotheticals. Build a moonkin, or a arms warrior.. pretend you are going raiding for the night. Now have a friend do the same thing.. and pretend he is going raiding.. Your characters are going to be IDENTICAL except for maybe 1 or 2 things which are not going to matter at all while you are raiding. Yes, he may take a heal that heals him automatically when he takes damage, you may take a ´click to heal´ ... those are very very tiny portions of your actual gameplay. The majority of the things you will be doing in the raid will be using exactly the same abilities with exactly the same talents.
Now do the exact same thing with the current talent trees, and you'll probably end up with almost identical trees as well. Even if you wanted to make an entirely different spec, you'd end up with a fairly similar one. The difference is that MoP talent trees at least differ in utility, while the current talent trees are identical in even that regard.
This is just the the devs being exceedingly lazy at balancing the game. The more identical they make each spec, the easier it is to balance. There are no meaningful choices in the talents because that would require them to balance them. So they give us choices in things that don´t matter at all.
This is something I do not understand... why do you, just because you dislike Blizzard's design decisions, insinuate they are too "lazy"? First of all, if they achieve a system that is easier to balance, that should actually be something to be happy about, because that means less frustration with FOTM specs beating you. Second, I doubt that this system will make specs more identical. And third, why would they want to be lazy? I'm positive that most of them want to deliver a convincing game, even if that means hard work.
The question is: What kind of choices do you want? The pre-Cataclysm version where all talents, irrespective of their purpose, are put together and you can cherry-pick whatever you need, essentially removing all variety in raid specs ("pick all damage talents and the remaining talent points can be put anywhere")? Or the Cataclysm version, which still works in a similar way, just that there aren't any flat bonuses anymore?
I'm certain that with the current system, there can be more variety than ever before. I admit that there are many talents that are not very compelling from a raider's perspective and a limitation of six tiers is pretty harsh; however, the basic system is far better than the previous approach.
Post by
870547
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Post by
Jontie
Thank you, thanks you, thank you! You have successfully articulated what I have been trying to tell a couple of my friends. Hopefully I can get them to read this.
I am bookmarking this thread! Good work.
Thanks! I didn't intend for this thread to become a hot debate on whether the new talent system is good/bad and it seems that tempers are still flaring.
Of course there will be cookie cutter specs still but chances are they'll change from fight to fight (instead of very rarely) for the min/maxers out there... Surely that accounts for something right?
I for one appreciate the ability to flesh out my character a little more than i can do right now, "make him my own" so to speak.
However I can understand why people don't like the sound of this new system as it could possibly mean LESS differences between classes, but i
hope
that if that is the case then it makes PvP easier to balance and PvE a little less "for this fight bring 1 tank and 24 moonkins!".
EDIT: for those of you saying that you miss fury tanking, Fury
never tanked
in the true sense of the word. It just crushed mobs before they had a chance to really do anything. It was fun though for the whole tier that it lasted!
Post by
161859
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Post by
535530
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Post by
229054
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Post by
OverZealous
If Blizzard changes nothing, people complain because the system does not work.
If they
do
change it, people complain because they didn't change it like they wanted them to.
Funny how that works.
I'm not saying all of the arguments against the talent tree revamps are invalid, though.
Post by
Interest
If Blizzard changes nothing, people complain because the system does not work.
If they
do
change it, people complain because they didn't change it like they wanted them to.
Funny how that works.
I'm not saying all of the arguments against the talent tree revamps are invalid, though.
It's sort of like a necessary evil! *gasp*
Post by
103233
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Interest
B ut I still can't tank while dual wielding.
And you never could.
Begging to differ. I've never
personally
DW tanked, but I've healed plenty of TG fury tanks, especially at the end of Wrath.
.
DPS tanks are not true tanks.
At the end of wraith, at least for me as heals, I didn't need a tank in five man heroic dungeons. It just went faster with four dps.
I remember my friend used to tank naked near the end of Wrath.
Post by
Carukia
You couldn't be more correct than you are right now. All of this nonsense blizzard is vomiting out about the specs right now is on par in terms of bull scat with something the Ministry of Truth would put out in 1984.
This game has always had one best spec for each class. Sure, you could claim they are dumbing the game down because those handful of math lovers don't have to crunch the numbers to find that spec anymore. But the other 99.99% of us no longer have to waste our time finding the right spec on Elitist Jerks and most of us will appreciate that. The way I see it, we actually have
more
choices with this new talent system. A combat rogue with deadly brew? A fire mage with ice barrier and slow? A frost DK with runic corruption? An elemental shaman with nature's swiftness? I could keep going all day with this.
If you want to purposely play sub-optimally, you will have to change up your rotation in MoP or bar yourself from using certain skills. But to be completely honest, it looks like we will have more choice in MoP than we do now, more than in vanilla, bc or wotlk. The more I think about it, the more excited I am about the new talents. I can't wait to see what the end product will look like, but I can already tell it will be a lot more interesting than anything we've seen so far.
Post by
Atik
B ut I still can't tank while dual wielding.
And you never could.
Begging to differ. I've never
personally
DW tanked, but I've healed plenty of TG fury tanks, especially at the end of Wrath.
.
DPS tanks are not true tanks.
At the end of wraith, at least for me as heals, I didn't need a tank in five man heroic dungeons. It just went faster with four dps.
That isn't what I did at all.
I had a hybrid spec, part prot and part Fury, that was a literal tank. Meant to hold aggro, keep aggro, take damage, and kick ass.
I can no longer do that or Fury DPS.
Post by
Magician22773
I think a part of the issue is that while most of us actually "understand" the reasoning behind the removal of talent "tree's" it takes away a part of the game that has been with us since the start. And, it takes away a "perception" that we were actually involved in our character development.
The first point...talent trees and trainers have always been there. A portion of the player base have been here a long, long time. I personally am pushing 6 years with no lapse in subscription, and have been a part of WoW since the open Vanilla beta. The incremental (sic?) build up of our character via talents and ranks has been a part of the game since the start. It has had its bad times, its better times, and its best times. But even with all the changes (that have all met with some degree of resistance), the core idea hasn't changed.
Now, it has. Nor more training. No more "tree". No more climbing ranks. I for one actually liked combing sites like Wowhead for spec ideas. Many times that research lead to more information about my new toon. I for one, actually enjoyed the huge talent trees of old. I enjoyed being able to toy around with hybrid specs. I enjoyed actually helping guildies, and even strangers with speccing their toon, and explaining why this talent may help them, and why this talent wasn't as good as it appeared.
The second point, is the loss of growing our charcter in small steps, rather than large leaps. Again, it lead to a little reward every couple of levels. It offered our character a bit more realism, in a very unrealistic world. Now, we will be only gaining thar "flavor" talents every 15 levels. And in the end, their will be a theroycrafted "best" spec for each class, spec, and now, fight.
For me, talents and specs were an interesting part of the game. They were something that required a little extra effort to research. They nudged many, many players to seek outside resources such as Wowhead to get them right. The new system is going to be more of an extention of how the glyph system works. 3 or 4 of the new talents are going to be "must have", and the rest are going to be "meh" fillers.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Atik
Sure, you could claim they are dumbing the game down because those handful of math lovers don't have to crunch the numbers to find that spec anymore. But the other 99.99% of us no longer have to waste our time finding the right spec on Elitist Jerks and most of us will appreciate that.
In my experience, most of the people who complain about 'dumbing downs' not aren't theorycrafters but, for some reason, believe that looking at Elitist Jerks for the right spec is some sort of meaningful intellectual exercise.
I'm not a theorycrafter, and avoid EJ at all costs.
I simply enjoy messing around and building my own specs.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lankybrit
I'm at peace with the new Talents.
Basically ignore them and concentrate on waiting for the Class Abilities and Spec Abilities to be announced that will be so much more important.
Heck, I can imagine actually leveling a new toon, and only looking at the talents when I get to level 15 and picking then. I guess that's really the point of them. No having to go to EJ to research first.
Really nice explanation OP.
Cheers.
Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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