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10.2.7
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10.2.6
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Bear tank LF help
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Post by
344435
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Raleandris
You're overgeared for the encounter, so there's only a couple of things that are making you almost die. One, your raid sucks at interrupting worshipers, and he's getting a huge stacking damage buff. Don't let that happen. Or two, your healers suck and you think you're taking more damage than you actually are.
Post by
344435
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
well that could b the case he reach a max of 3-4 stacks when i tanked him
Ouch.
Post by
Uiselveti
I would also add that you are taking more damage than a bear should.
You have forsaken your mitigation stats for stam, which has the affect of making you soft. To put that in perspective, the lesser geared of my bears is the same equipped ilvl as you (
Aithriocht
), but has nearly 600 more agility and nearly 5% more mastery. My absorbs and self heals (1.1M on my last Cho kill on this toon) on Cho are on par with the healing I receive from our healers. Obviously, the bulk of that (922k) is from SD. This is why it is generally considered better to gem & enchant for agility whenever possible; it is simply more valuable a survivability stat than stam.
Most importantly; however, your raid needs to learn to interrupt worshipping b/c allowing that buff to stack like that is simply unacceptable.
Post by
Cant
Agreed with stacking stamina. Before tanking heroic bosses that deal insane damage and your healers are geared out, I would gem for mitigation.
Post by
135040
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Uiselveti
TL; DR: Yes, I do not build my bear precisely to mitigate as much incoming damage as possible, and there are reasons for that.
While I agree with the sentiment, it seems by your posted armory link, that you have yourself forsaken mitigation stats for threat stats. Expertise is not primarily a mitigation stat, you have repeatedly reforged crit to expertise which is reducing the mitigation on your gear, to max mitigation reforge every item to dodge.
This may be a bit of a derailment, but I want to address the points you bring up. Some of this may differ from the tanking philosophy of others & that is fine. I am not trying to tell anyone what I do is right for them, but that this is right for me & my raid groups in the content that we are currently working through.
While you may be academically correct, you are trying to correct a problem that I do not have. My goals can be, and in fact are, slightly different from the OP. The OP is struggling with survivability, while I am not. As tanks, our priorities are:
Survive
Cause as much of the incoming directed damage in an encounter as possible to be targeted on ourselves, rather than other raid members filling different roles; and do so in a controlled manner.
Cause as much damage as possible to our targets based on kill priority & raid event / mechanic timing.
As I see it, there are 2 primary bear builds (itemization-wise, not spec, obviously). The dodge bear & the mastery/crit bear. By the numbers, the dodge bear does take slightly less damage than the mastery/crit bear build. When I say slightly, I mean very slightly. We are talking <5% over a 5M incoming damage fight.This does play out this way in my experience and is not a point of contention.
However, in my view this additional mitigation is not worth sacrificing the the additional raid utility offered by the mastery/crit build over the dodge build provided that tank survivability is not the limiting factor. The dodge build does make more sense to me when you spend all of your time in bear & never switch to cat. However, I can't for the life of me imagine never popping to cat. The increase in DPS output of a mastery/crit bear hopping to cat after all the drakes are down on heroic Halfus, or the Elementium Monstrosity, or Al'Akir phases 1 & 3, or....you get the idea, versus a Pally, Warrior or DK tank simply relegates us to that position. We are simply the better choice, and by miles.
Now, the reason for the expertise in my build is due to testing I did comparing both of my bears (
Tritonis
&
Aithriocht
). Through lots of time and effort (an uninspiring amount of which was trial & error), I modified stat weights to find what I considered to be a good balance of survivability/threat/damage/utility. I should point out that this is my thoughts, and not necessarily something I would recomend for everyone. If you don't feel confident that you can assess the relative value of your stat weights in practice, you are much better off using "off the shelf" weights from EJ or Mr.Robot.
Using SimCraft, Rawr, Mr.Robot, target dummies, endless heroics & in raid testing I tweaked stat weights and regemmed, reforged, re-enchanted as necessary to test the results. Some were better, some were worse. Some just felt out of balance. For anyone that cares, the stat weights that I currently use are:
Stam = 0.4
Agi = 1.0
Mst = 0.53
Exp = 0.53 to 5% (this weight feels right, though I am not certain that the cap I have set is ideal balance yet)
Hit = 0.36 to 4%
Crit = 0.36
Hst = 0.04
Dod = 0.46
Having 2 raiding bears has helped greatly in the testing. Am I aware that the sample size is small & my results are skewed? Absolutely, but then that is why nothing is concrete & adjustments can be made, and frequently are. Both bears' raids are regularly logged & compared against each other as a way to ballpark weights of given changes.
What you see with these two bears is the best I have to date. Ideal for your raid? Probably not, but then these each work well with the raid groups these toons are tanking.
Edit: spelling is hard
Post by
curlymon
What are the post cap values you are using for Hit and Exper?
Post by
344435
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
135040
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Uiselveti
What are the post cap values you are using for Hit and Exper?
I have been treating each as a hardcap. This should work fine for hit until we find ourselves crit capped. I have not calculated at what crit% this would happen yet, though I don't feel like this is right around the corner yet. My educated guess would be that this will occur around 60%-ish crit using these stat values.
Expertise is a difficult value to pin down since its weight is dependent on factors that really have little to do with you as the tank. Threat shouldn't be much of an issue other than to compensate for positioning or or unlucky streaks after tricks/md has expired. Who hasn't had to taunt off a trigger happy dps on Atramedes' or Onyxia's pull?
You are, however, sacrificing a little mitigation, and I do mean
very little
. The amount of crit you lose (which is really the only
useful
green stat you should consider sacrificing, which should be obvious by the stat weights I have listed) relative to expertise gained is quite low. 1135 critical strike rating only yields me 6.33% crit%. By comparison, 629 expertise rating yields me 5.24% expertise. This means that the 451 crit reforged as expertise increased my expertise roughly ~350% (expertise prior to reforge 1.48% after reforge = 5.24%), while resulting in a reduction of my critical strike chance of 8.4% (crit chance prior to reforge = 30.07% & after reforge = 27.55). Like expertise rating, critical strike rating is not affected by buffs so these are real realized values in raid. The effect of this is that there is a large jump in the damage you are dealing with a minimal impact of overall survivability.
As a result of all of this, there really isn't a need to set soft caps like DPS would. This is due to us having different goals. We are not pushing events off of the combat table, while DPS are. The factors that change the values of our stats weights are dictated by our raid group composition, throughput and skill balanced against encounter mechanics, not pushing off misses/dodges/parries.
@ Uselveti, to make it clear my post was intended in the context of giving advice to the OP to maximise mitigation, followed by a link to a character which did not entirely follow that gearing model. No offense intended.
No offense taken at all. I took it as an opportunity to give other bears that may be wondering what to do now that their survival is no longer the limiting factor in their progression an idea what is under the hood and how they can use that information to continue to help push their progression rather than just be the meat sack standing in front of the boss for the rest of the xpac.
I also want to make it clear that this is really something that the tank has to work out with their raid group. Anyone blindly plugging in my values rather than the "off the shelf" stat weights will likely suffer poor results unless the have a pretty solid understanding of the knobs they are turning & what the actual effects are.
Edit:
You are correct in that linking to my toons may be misleading if someone was to look at the whole rather than just the point I was trying to highlight. I should have been more clear about differing priorities based content and play progression. You point is well taken, thank you.
Post by
Uiselveti
the only reason i did that was because idk i felt like i just didnt have enough stamina 2 live anything compare 2 other thanks (dks) solo buff im at 151k-153k
My bears are 152-155k fully buffed in raid. Bears don't need 200k hp to survive b/c we are designed differently. In fact, we are considerably tougher to kill and easier to heal with much less priority placed on increasing stam. I would suggest you follow the stat weights from EJ or Mr. Robot to get an idea of what you can do to increase your hardiness as a tank.
At your gear level, you should not have serious survivability issues in any non-heroic raid content as long as the rest of your raid is properly geared, knows their class/spec and is reacting properly to encounter mechanics. From your previous post, we know that this is not the case since, at minimum, they are obviously not interrupting worshipping quickly & consistently.
Post by
344435
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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