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10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
Determinism
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Post by
451639
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Anything that is not "material" (in the metaphysical sense, not the physics sense) is spiritual. All motion (again in the metaphysical sense, not physics) originates from some non-material (spiritual source) and can then react and spread out according to the laws and nature of the material things affected. These can come back and affect the non-material, but only indirectly. For instance, take drugs (yay!) as an example (aww...). They effect the body and the chemical processes therein, and thus indirectly affect the person's spiritual dimension by interfering with it's attempts to act in and receive from the material world.
Now, our will is bounded by a nature. I cannot will myself to fly (in a strict sense, but I can build machines that fly me). But this is not seen as as a problem with free will. Just because we don't have infinite possibilities, doesn't mean we aren't free within the confines of what we are essentially.
Post by
451639
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The will is informed by the intellect (the reason why you do it) and makes decisions based on data from the senses (what you're doing), and it is always ordered towards the apparent good (by nature). I see a child reaching for the hot stove and my intellect tells me hot stoves cause burning, so I look at the situation and try to find the apparent good. For me, the child not getting burned > the child getting burned, so then I will myself to prevent that from happening. This process can take place nearly instantly like in the example above, or it can be long and deliberate.
Post by
451639
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
But then again, if will is influenced by intellect and senses, it is actually determined by them. Which is determinism. Unless, you say that will can decide something completely different, regardless of input. But then again, why did it decide so?
A) Determinism = cause and effect =/= informing
B) The intellect is another power of the soul
But, you also mentioned good. We can take that as the free part of will. Apparent good by nature specifically, what does that mean? How is it apparent? What makes it good (I guess there's also bad)?
Apparent means "as appearing to one." The apparent good is determined by the sense information and knowledge you have, and by that you determine what is best for you. Then you will yourself to achieve that end. In the case of the kid and the stove you could will yourself to tackle him, to shout at him, to do any number of things.
Post by
Skreeran
See, if I had known that this was a "spiritual" or religious discussion, I wouldn't even have stepped in..
I'm talking physics, and you're talking mysticism. Give me an observable, empirical, scientific explanation for how you think free will can transcend the physical reactions taking place inside our bodies, and I'll happily discuss it with you.
I'm not about to argue about how souls work, though. I'm absolutely sick and tired of arguing about that.
Post by
451639
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
See, if I had known that this was a "spiritual" or religious discussion, I wouldn't even have stepped in..
I'm talking physics, and you're talking mysticism. Give me an observable, empirical, scientific explanation for how you think free will can transcend the physical reactions taking place inside our bodies, and I'll happily discuss it with you.
I'm not about to argue about how souls work, though. I'm absolutely sick and tired of arguing about that.
You're talking about material determinism:
The physical world is deterministic by nature
So what are you demanding? I'm quite fine with material determinism. Will isn't material.
Post by
451639
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Post by
Skreeran
It is relevant, I think.
To approach the topic from a scientific perspective, you have to observe a process (although some exceptions can be made when an established fact demands it, in the same way black holes were mandated by the theory of relativity before we ever observed one).
We can observe chemical reactions taking place inside our brains. Potassium and sodium ions are passed from nerve cells causing nigh instantaneous (at least from our perspective) impulse chains to send signals to other cells. We know that our brain is a tight and well-organized collection of neurons and that damage to the brain can cause changes in personality and mental ability. We also have observed various hormones that are produced by different glands in our bodies, which cause other changes in our mental states.
All evidence would point to our minds being a complex product of the physical processes taking place inside our bodies. And while some people hypothesize that it is more than that, they cannot offer any direct proof, and instead rely on vague feelings and philosophical ambiguities to support their argument.
I came into this thread under the assumption that we would be talking science, not mysticism. If you want to argue that we have free will because "God/Xenu/alchemy imbued us with free spirits/thetans/homunculi," then I expect you to offer solid evidence to back up that claim, rather than just tell us what you believe to be the case.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The material or not, it's not important. All is. In what ever form it might be. We're debating is it all connected in a mutually dependent way or not. making it determinism. Do we perceive will as spiritual or material is irrelevant.
It is important if you believe in material determinism. A material will (an non-nonsensical phrase in my opinion), must necessarily not be free if it exists in a realm of material determinism.
How do you come about discovering will? The mechanism behind it? Why do you even determine what's best for you?
Discovering will is just a matter of looking at our actions, and seeing us as agents, and trying to explain how that can be. I'm not sure what you mean by mechanism. And we always go for the good because it's our nature to do that. Even a man who kills himself thinks that it is the best thing for him to do.
@Skreeran
And if you're going to claim that material is all that exists, then I expect you to back up that claim. Guess what, neither of us can. This is an
a posteriori
issue, and as such revolves around fitting explanations, not proofs.
Post by
184848
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Why is the physical world deterministic? That goes, in a sense, against the principles of quantum mechanics and abiogenesis which are currently largely accepted understandings of how the physical world functions and of how life begins.
I mean, you're stating that as though it were a given. That's the only reason I'm asking.
My experience of a logical and ordered world. At least that's me. I don't know why Skreeran hold it, but I assume it's for a similar reason.
Post by
184848
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Post by
451639
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
My experience of a logical and ordered world.
That was a pretty large claim for experience. How haughty.
To experience consistency instead of randomness and then to conclude to randomness seems a much more haughty (or just down right idiotic, depending on the reasons for doing so) claim.
But, all knowledge comes from experience, so either you think nothing can be claimed, or you're being hypocritical.
@Hyper
Mechanism? The workings of decision making process. Why is ti our nature to do that?
I explained the process already:
Object -> senses -> intellect -> will -> the apparent good.
Why is it our nature? Because that's how we're built.
Post by
Skreeran
@Skreeran
And if you're going to claim that material is all that exists, then I expect you to back up that claim. Guess what, neither of us can. This is an
a posteriori
issue, and as such revolves around fitting explanations, not proofs.I can demonstrate that the physical world exists (at least for all practical purposes; no need to discuss solipsism at this point).
Can you demonstrate that anything else exists?
Why is the physical world deterministic? That goes, in a sense, against the principles of quantum mechanics and abiogenesis which are currently largely accepted understandings of how the physical world functions and of how life begins.Well, I suppose you got me there. I don't have a very good understanding of quantum mechanics, but from what I understand, free particles can move and behave in certain ways without be acted upon by an outside force, which would throw a wrench in the idea of determinism on a quantum scale.
Still though, when I said that the universe is deterministic, I meant that on a macroscopic scale the universe is
mostly
deterministic, thanks to the far less "random" laws of gravity and electromagnetism that order the large scale universe.
Post by
451639
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I can demonstrate that the physical world exists (at least for all practical purposes; no need to discuss solipsism at this point).
Yes, and so can I. But that's not the issue. You claim that the material world is
all that exists
. That's a different claim. Demonstrate that.
If you can't (and I know you can't), then employing consistent explanations that involve the non-material is completely valid.
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