This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Bear Nerf
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
@ thor..
The only time I have seen swipe hit for 600 was when it was blocked.
Mine average from 1.3 to 4k outsude of icc.
Guess what, foley? Incorrect statement is incorrect. See below.
QQ.. they removed the faceroll ascpet of bear tanking......GOOD!
And one note. There is a tiny little difference between people who
only
have experience with feral tanks, and people who have lots of tanking experience with
all the tanks
. Can you tell the difference? Are you accusing me of being used to a one-button tanking style? Get real, man.
Today, i went to heroic Gundrak four times, with each one of my tanking classes, just to be able to show you how their AoE skills fare in recount.
This is my DK.
Holy crap, is that Blood Boil critting for an average of 3k? Yes it is! Also, dayum, that is some sweet 15% damage done with Death and Decay, which has a built-in threat modifier for each tick, isn't it? Oh man, the DoTs over there sure have ticked a lot of times, maybe its because they were usually spread over all the targets. 4k DPS overall? Whoopsies.
This is my Paladin.
Oh god where do we start? Avenger Shield, Hammer of the Righteous with a 6 sec CD critting for some sweet, sweet 4k, and we can also see Holy Wrath, my favorite snap aggro tool for entering combat and chaining pulls. Oh man, consecration is in there too. See the DK with 8559 DPS in recount? He was Frost. He spammed Howling Blast as if there was no tommorow. He did only make me lose aggro
twice
. Read as
on two monsters in the instance
. The golem before the second boss, and one of the rhino riders before the last boss.
This is my Warrior.
Oh crap, only 2600 dps. I am not very good at Cleave. I highlighted Thunderclap on the recount, because it is a 6 sec CD ability which has a built in threat modifier. You can also see Shockwave, Cleave and Revenge dealing some sweet, sweet damage. Revenge hits two targets, the second one for 50% damage, and usually crits around the 8k mark. Cleave crits upwards to 6k damage. An additional note, my warrior has probably the weakest gear of all my tanks.
And last,
and
the least, comes
My Glorious Druid
!
With an average item level of 270, clearly the best geared of all my characters, doing... wait... 334-1146 damage with swipe non-crit, and 2372 damage max with Swipe? Check out how single target abilities dominate the chart.
Look foley, i do not care about how much your Swipe does in cat form, so your 4k example can go die in a dark corner.
You know why you are fine? Because when you are an exceptionally skilled tank, you theoretically can tank AoE with
single target abilities only
, merely with target switching.
You think you are fine? You are lying yourself. Look, foley, if you and i went ICC, or any other raid, and tanked trash, things would
stick to ME
. @#$%ING
PERIOD
. Having leet target switching skills AND convenient AoE tools > Having leet target switching skills and NO AoE tools.
Post by
LookOut
Foley, seriously. No Swipe until 36, and it only hits for 26. Really? You're ok with that?
Let's pull some facts, I just tanked 2 heroics, one in
tanking gear
(Gun'Drak), one in
dps gear except for the weapon
(Drak'Tharon):
DPS gear numbers (can't quote the tanking ones, since I cleared my skada for the second run):
Mangle: 3279 minimum, 14900 maximum
Auto-Attack: 905 min, 3832 max
Maul: 980 min, 6971 max
Swipe: 506 min, 3418 max
Lacerate: 81 min (ticks obviously), 2765 max
Fury Swipes: 4266 min, 10216 max
FFF: 1043 min, 2239 max
Pulverize: 1361 min, 4667 max
There you go, Swipe hits less than an auto-attack. How fun.
I constantly lost aggro on both runs (second run seemed to go a bit smoother, but then I started to lag :-/). The group was like this:
- warrior guildy, ICC25 geared
- feral guildy, ICC25 geared
- shammy healer guildy alt, ICC10 geared I think
- arcane mage who was a total &*!@#$% and kept ninjapulling and single target dpsing my off-targets, which didn't help much.
If we didn't overgear the place by $%^&loads, it would have been a disaster. But stuff died so fast, it just didn't matter. The only time someone died was when the shammy alt was looting a boss.
Oh, and the warrior pulled aggro off me on Tharon'ja. Yeah ...
Also:
Sounds to me like we need a full 5man druid team on Lightbringer ;)
I bring teh kitteh!
What's this now? :p Wowhead druids invading my realm?
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
Have you tanked that in tanking gear? This is weird. The "count" on your abilities used is pretty similar to mine, but the overall damage you have done with those abilities is like, 30-50% higher than mine.
And what is "max" on my swipe is your "average".
If my Swipe was critting 4k, i would not be complaining. That is an amount i can definitely work with. Why the inconsistency? Why are my Swipes so much weaker? The highest crit with Swipe i have, 2372, was even with Enrage (KotJ) on.
The numbers Lookout reports.. he says his Swipe crit for 3418 max, with full dps gear.
Post by
LookOut
The numbers Lookout reports.. he says his Swipe crit for 3418 max, with full dps gear.
Small correction: my weapon was from my tanking gear, but I reckon a 277 Bloodfall does more deeps than a 264 Shaft of Glacial Ice, even if it's gemmed with stam.
...and finnaly.
Since gundrak was your dungeon of choice.
I went there
too
!
Just to point out, GD wasn't my choice, the dungeon finder put me there :/
Also note that my GD run was in TANKING gear, and my DTK run was in DPS gear! And the numbers I posted earlier are from the SECOND run.
Edit: and your group's deepsers sucked, mine were high geared fellas
@ thor..
The only time I have seen swipe hit for 600 was when it was blocked.
Your recount says your minimum non-blocked swipe hit was 800. In DPS gear.
I heard what you are saying.. our aoe doesnt compare to other tanks, who argualy have much, much more options. The only difference was ours didnt have a cd. But how was that any different from before? We only had swipe in 1.0(luls), 2.0, and 3.0. Its now 4.0 and we are getting 2, yes!, TWO aoe attacks. (3 if you consider throns).
They are playing around with swipe trying to balance it.
Is it anoying? Yes.
But like honestly...?
Its 2 weeks before cata.. chill the @#$% out.
The only flaw blizzard made is making thrash a lvl 81 skill.
Give it to low lvl druid and maybe, just maybe, you will all shut the !@#$ up and learn to play.
This is the part where you finally made a bit of sense, you finally admitted that Swipe is underbalanced right now.
I don't care about my aoe right now, since I'm not doing heroics anyways, but I'm not the only feral in the game. There's people who just dinged and want to farm T10 or w/e before Cata hits (as useless as it may be).
This has to be fixed BEFORE those "2 weeks before Cata" are gone, because then there's no more overgearing, stuff will hit like crazy, and you'll want to have that aggro. But then again, Cata dungeons will have far less aoe in them and more CC (normally), so meh, maybe just MAYBE I'll be able to tank 5mans during that 1 level before I get Thrash.
Post by
299735
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
I, for one, am sick of
NORMAL
endgame content being faceroll easy. Seriously my friends and I have been 7 manning LK kills for months to carry personal friends to Kingslayer titles... 3 at a time!
/fixed
Post by
Thror
You don't understand... if this Swipe damage i am seeing was intended, i would not post all of these. The only thing that drives me mad is, that there is nothing that would indicate this change. At least blizzard has been kind enough up to now to always mention in patch notes that they are changing something.
Swipe, for me, went down from 6k damage in 4.0.3, to 700 damage in 4.0.3a. The patch notes to 4.0.3a do not say that the damage is gonna be reduced that much. Nothing says so. They said 20% reduction, and then they said 17% reduction. If you reduce 6k by 20% and by 17% in any possible way, you do not get 700. If there was a blue post saying "we know how much damage swipe does, and it is working as intended", i would know that this is something i have to adapt to.
Yes, they said they intend to change tanking for Cataclysm, so that you will not AoE everything. But seriously guys, think about it... it is only Swipe that is broken. Not Thunderclap. Not Blood Boil. Not Hammer of the Righteous. There is no logical way that would lead me to believing that the current damage of swipe is intended, and done to make preparation for some Cataclysm tanking model.
Actually, there has never been any mention of nerfing tank AoE into the ground. Nothing they have done with the talents has indicated that. They want to make huge AoE tanking not desirable, and CCing more desirable, not because tanks would not
be able to hold the threat
, but because tanks
would die
.
Also, yeah, spending 17 global cooldowns to kill four level 80 Rhinos while being geared in full T10 is hell of a lot of fun. Wait no, it is not. I'd prefer my class to be fun.
I can't believe how many people can't stop cringing to their elitist sunglasses, and their angst from Wrath.
"Raising the skill cap is also for the better enjoyment of seasoned raiders." ... yeah. Lets make the casuals suffer. The game should only be catered to us, who have <0,2 sec reaction time, spend over 3 hours a day on theorycrafting forums, and have experienced all the content in this game. The others do not deserve it.
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Thror
The gear might not be all that rare now, that is true. But skill is. When there are two bears in T10 gear, but one is not skilled, and one is, you can tell the difference right away, with a good eye. I think the current system gives more importance to skill than gear, makes the skilled people shine over the unskilled. Sure, they might be wearing clothes that look the same as yours, but thats just aesthetics. Let them have the pretty things. Your skill still differentiates you, and it should matter more than the clothes.
Another good thing about easily acquirable good gear is that people that are skilled, but just were not here when Tier 7 was actual content, can still catch up to the people that are doing T10 content. Thanks to this, skilled people are not stopped by any gear barriers, and with effort, can bite their way from the bottom to top. Not saying this was not possible in Burning Crusade, it probably was, but this way is definitely more user friendly. And if i was pro enough for ICC heroic, i would be kinda annoyed that i have to go through something as elementary as Naxxramas.
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
299735
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
132589
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Binjo
When they gave swipe a c/d I immediately had a negative reaction, mainly because to me that flexibility differentiated druid tanks from the others, the ability to hold aoe in a more mobile fashion than the others. Then I saw how much threat/damage it did and grew in to it, I just got in to warrior mode and placed my self properly and all was well.
I'm not growing in to this. Even with tab lacerating/maul/mangle procs + swipe I can't reliably keep a pack of three on me. One chain lightning ruins me. This notion that CCing is the answer is ridiculous, even in vanilla I don't recall having to cc a mob in a pack of three in a regular freaking instance.
I'm with the majority of others in this thread, this change reminds me of pre 50 druid tanking. It's just painful.
Post by
389643
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
In a way, I think we all need to think back to TBC, think CC, think smart and stop thinking Wrath.
In my honest opinion, Wrath ruined good tanks, and those of you who started tanking in Wrath have "never had it so easy". Go back 10 levels where CC and good tanking knowledge was required I think some of you would die of heart failure keeping up ;)
Im sure Aadra wherever he maybe will agree with Foley on this point, and for the most part, so do I.
Well, wherever I may be... Yesterday I just reactivated my account with a gift from Blizzard, a 7 days exempt to "motivate me to come back to WoW" (hahahahaaaa, damn, what a joke ಠ_ಠ ). I proceeded to dig in my ~2500 justice points to get a full T10 set (had only 2 pieces), slap some proper gems in there, spec, glyphs and stuff. For my cat DPS set. Then I proceeded to mash buttons behind a lvl 80 training dummy. with small variations, my DPS hovered around 9500. I was absolutely amazed. Bleed effects (especially Rip) are totally beastial.
Kitty is FUN!
After that I proceeded to properly spec / glyph for bear tanking. Instead of my standard strength pieces I used agility based rings, amulet and cloak (gemmed / enchanted for DPS as they were). And I proceeded to mash some buttons, facing a lvl 80 target dummy. Mangle was hits big time. Lacerate hits pretty nice on the front end, the bleed damage feels ok. Maul hits pretty hard with Mangle and Lacerate on target, pretty nice stuff. But when I saw Swipe... Hitting for ~500 and critting for a tad over 1000. And with a 6 second CD.
I
strongly
disagree with the position adopted by
parrazell
and
foleynuts
, quoted above my post:
The only thing that stands out strongly is this entire thread is.. "waaaaaaaaa i cant spam swipe anymore"
QQ.. they removed the faceroll ascpet of bear tanking......GOOD!
/clap
thank you foley
As
Harolld
mentioned, this is EXACTLY the problem with Swipe.
It can't be spammed anymore.
And even if it were spammable, such a low damage would still not be able to hold threat against some powerful AoE classes. For now, Swipe is broken. WotLK has changed the trash killing style compared to Burning Crusade. There is no more CC. Just AoE fest As such, Swipe can't hold a candle to even moderate area damage.
I have seen both here and on many other forums many replies along the lines of "welcome back to the good old Burning Crusade days".
WHAT A LOAD OF SH*T!
My bear has tanked Burning Crusade trash mobs and many bosses, starting with the famous Clefthoof set, going through Karazhan, Tempest Keep, Serpentshrine Cavern, Zul'aman, Mount Hyjal and Black Temple, and also the first three bosses in Sunwell Plateau. Well before the infamous 'EZmode' 3.0 patch (the pre-WotLK patch). Let me tell you these MAJOR differences between the current Swipe and the BC version of it:
1) Swipe was spammable.
2) Swipe was hitting for excellent damage.
3) Swipe only used to hit three targets
, but usually the fact that people really took CC seriously made things go smooth, because 5 mobs was the most one would meet in a trash pack in any lvl 70 heroic, with very very few exceptions. 2 were usually CCed, the other three stuck to my bear like glue. And even in AoE fest scenarios like the scourge waves in Mount Hyjal, the high damage and spamability of Tab-Swiping made it more than enough to hold threat along with Mauls and Mangles left and right.
Now everyone says that Cataclysm will bring back the
Shattered Halls
heroic dungeon style, where many packs were 5 (sometimes 6) mobs strong, requiring CC on 2-3 of them. And who went through that heroic dungeon at level 70 and doesn't remember the nightmarish gauntlet? The fact that
Swipe was hitting fairly hard and was spammable
made it possible to get through with little trouble. Mobs were pouring all the time and movement out of the fire laid down by flaming arrows was a constant requirement. The gauntlet in the Pit of Saron (going up the ramp and into the tunnel in the mountain if I remember correctly) probably gives some terrible headaches to many druid tanks today as well because Swipe hits like cr*p and has a 6 seconds CD.
In Cataclysm, if 2 mobs from any group of 5 (as an example) will be CCed, Tab tanking the three remaining mobs will be fairly smooth relying on Mangle, Maul and Lacerate. Strict killing order must be maintained. Thrash and Swipe will probably generate enough threat to keep secondary targets from going for the healers. But any kind of AoE (and man, I've seen some nasty stuff yesterday evening, when I went through 3 random heroics) will peel those mobs off the tank in an instant. Not to mention that the fact that both Thrash and Swipe have 6 seconds CD makes them susceptible to failure if the tank is not hit / expertise capped. A missed Swipe / Thrash combo in the beginning of a pull means that those mobs will run off straight into the healer (assuming the DPS is smart and doesn't go AoE fest mode, only damaging the primary target(s)).
Right now, as I see it for the current content, Bears have a damn hard time AoE tanking. Swipe is cr*p. And when almost all the DPS are used to the trash mob AoE fest that WotLK taught them, bear tanking is not fun. Not fun at all. And it won't be in Cataclysm either. Personally I'd be happy to see Swipe return to the 3 target spammable ability it used to be in Burning Crusade, along with its nice damage. CC some targets, AoE tank 3 others. I've seen posts around the forums stating that there is some scaling bug and that Swipe somehow keeps the base damage it gets from level 36 and only receives bonus from AP, without scaling upwards like all other abilities. I hope this will be fixed soon enough.
Sorry for the wall of text ^_^ I had to get it out. And it's been a long time since I posted around here as well ಠ_ಠ
Post by
LookOut
In it's current state, tanking trash is NOT fun. I hope swipe IS working as intended, and I hope that warrior, pally, and DK AoE threat scales terribly at 85.
o_O wut? Because our AoE is broken, you want to break the AoE of the other classes? Nononononono! That'll shunt people away from tanking, and the dungeon queues have a tanking shortage as it is!
AoE fests are NOT fun, NOT brain engaging and have totally ruined the PvE game for me.
Depends on the class. Not everyone has 1 button spam aoe-age. I found AoE fests fun in 4.0.1 on my druid tank (even pre-4.0 I just entertained myself by running and jumping around while spamming swipe instead of just standing still).
But bringing back CC is nice indeed :) Ruby Sanctum is an example of how Cata 5mans will be I hope <3
My bear has tanked Burning Crusade trash mobs and many bosses, starting with the famous Clefthoof set
Clefthoof set <3 Farmed those for friggin hours in Nagrand :D
And even in AoE fest scenarios like the scourge waves in Mount Hyjal, the high damage and spamability of Tab-Swiping made it more than enough to hold threat along with Mauls and Mangles left and right.
Don't forget mouse-over lacerates! ^_^
I've seen posts around the forums stating that there is some scaling bug and that Swipe somehow keeps the base damage it gets from level 36 and only receives bonus from AP, without scaling upwards like all other abilities. I hope this will be fixed soon enough.
That might explain it. WTB hotfix!
mmmmm hot fix
Sorry for the wall of text ^_^ I had to get it out. And it's been a long time since I posted around here as well ಠ_ಠ
Glad to have you back Aadra >:D
Also, you tested those numbers post-4.0.3a on lvl 80 dummies? I can't find those, all I see is lvl 85 dummies and raid dummies (which I mangle for less than 100 :-o ) ... where did you find those lvl 80 dummies? :-/
And last but not least, let me go parrazell-style: /clap Aadra
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
And last but not least, let me go parrazell-style: /clap Aadra
Heh I got style :-p
Glad you took it well, I was afraid I had gone overboard on that one ^_^
I want to see a return of CC, I want tanking to be more than "hit swipe, hit thrash, aoe go nuts". Thats boring to hell.
Let me quote Thror for you on this one:
They want to make huge AoE tanking not desirable, and CCing more desirable, not because tanks would not
be able to hold the threat
, but because tanks
would die
.
I refer to Ruby Sanctum trash to back up that theory. Were we able to hold aggro on them all? Sure, but you would not survive. True, you had to separate them and not CC them, but it shows the point imho.
Edit: soooooooo many walls o' text in this topic o_O
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.