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How many people hate the new idiot proof talent trees?
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Post by
Xiamaru
Some people haven't looked at the Prot Paladin Spec
We have plenty of choices there. The first row:
more healing done by AND to us
,
more seal damage
(which is low, but still somewhat useful), and a chance to
retain HP after using our fairly powerful self-heal
.
Here, we need 2 of the 3.
Divinity
is almost always taken, so it comes down to self-healing, or damage. A pretty good choice for a tank to make, especially because
Eternal Glory
allows us to effectively Tank Heal ourselves in Heroics, given the right talents and proper gear.
Sure, we have plenty of "must-have" talents, but also plenty of "these are good, take us" talents, that you have to choose between.
Reckoning
for a bit more single target dps?
Improved Hammer of Justice
for more frequent interrupts?
Guarded by the Light
for more self-healing? Or maybe even
Divine Guardian
for some additional utility, or maybe even as an amazing extra damage reduction CD for the Main-tank if you are Off-tanking? All of these are viable, without harming your performance.
This somehow reminds me of
this
motivational poster. I'm not too into the other threes, and we can agree that some of them, like Feral Druids, have little to no choice in their builds. But really, these threes are far and away better than the old ones.
And in my opinion, you weren't a hybrid class because you "only" took 41 points in 1 three, and spend the rest in another. Otherwise, let's go all the way, and say a 50 point talent Demo Warlock were also a hybrid, because hey, the guy didn't take the last talent. A hybrid is someone who goes roughly equal, and doesn't prioritized 1 thing over another, at least in my opinion.
The only true hybrid build that Blizzard have ever encouraged, have to be Frostfire builds. They let you take whatever talents you desired from frost or fire, and allow you to do pretty well, in most cases ignoring resists and immunities because you simply were able to use another type of spell, without giving it any thought.
People complain all the time. If Blizzard does A, people think they should have done B instead, and if Blizzard does B, People think they should have gone with A instead. I understand why blizzard hardly ever listens to its community. What's the point? No matter how many people like any idea, there will always be a group somewhere that hates it with a passion, that will whine and QQ about it.
Post by
367590
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
If you want the game to guide players into the best choices, shouldn't you guide them with talents and gear? These aren't exactly the same things, but there is a parallel I'm trying to draw here. If we're going to be hand holding the players, then if you choose Protection for paladins, for example, two handed weapons should be unavailable. Leather, mail and cloth should be unavailable. Because one handed weapons, shields, and plate is so much more effective in the role of a tank.
I see the parallel. Where we seem to disagree is that the new talent tree design has removed all choice. I don't see that it has. You
are
locked into a single tree for 31 points, but within that tree you still have choices - and in many cases, no matter what talents you take you'll still be effective in your role. Not every talent is necessary. There is still some flexibility there, even if it is not as great as in the old system.
And again, I should restate that guiding the player into making more effective talent choices is not the sole reason I like the new design - or even the primary reason. The primary reason I enjoy the new design is that it allows more iconic and powerful (read: cool) talents for the various specs to be placed earlier in the tree - something they could not do under the old system, as it would result in overpowered hybrid specs.
Post by
Xiamaru
The primary reason I enjoy the new design is that it allows more iconic and powerful (read: cool) talents for the various specs to be placed earlier in the tree - something they could not do under the old system, as it would result in overpowered hybrid specs.
The problem have always been hybrids. It was a good thing they removed the ability to go that direction, as it allows better balancing between the threes, and, as you said, cooler talents.
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Azazel
I <3 'em. Now I can have useless PvP talents and still be a decent raider!
Some of those talents are going to be pretty useful when you have to save your own life and cant depend strictly on over powered healers to keep you alive.
Exactly my point.
Post by
JamieK
There never was flexibility in the first place.
Each class had 3-5 "acceptable" specs back when we had 71 talent points. Now that we have 36 talent points, each class has 3-5 "acceptable" specs.
Back then, three to five were viable, but required theorycrafting to figure out exactly where to best allocate every point. Now, three to five are viable, but require functioning braincells to figure out where best to allocate every point.
The previous method was bad because it was counter intuitive to new players. Players who have never played an MMO before would not even think to go looking up a good talent build and would just take points that they feel are "good." With the current system, a new player will get, roughly 90% of an optimal spec without research because it is far more intuitive.
Hell, i even couldn't get into a weekly raid group into naxx because they demanded a 6.9k gearscore, even though my character had
What sort of moron would require LK25 man heroic gear for the entry level raid of Wrath?
Elitists that just wanted a quick and easy finish.
Post by
466163
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lonewarrior
People complain all the time. If Blizzard does A, people think they should have done B instead, and if Blizzard does B, People think they should have gone with A instead. I understand why blizzard hardly ever listens to its community. What's the point? No matter how many people like any idea, there will always be a group somewhere that hates it with a passion, that will whine and QQ about it.
Any company that doesn't listen to its customer base might as well start packing their bags.
Blizzard does listen to their community...it just seems at times they don't know who to listen to.
Sear at one point decide to go after a more upscale customer base and market more expensive clothes, I'm sure their old customer base voiced complaints, but internal numbers and surveys may have pointed to better profits...it almost blew Sears out of existence.
The comic book industry once decided to go after the collectibles crowd. Prices of comics soared...long time base customers complained about being unable to afford comics anymore. "keep your 75 cents..we are getting triple that making die cut covers" was the industry response. The collectible crowd lost interest..the comic book industry imploded.
It is by the slimmest of margins that people today can watch X-men/Spiderman/Batman..etc movies.
If Bizz does "A" and only 10% of the community complains then they can assume it was well done. If Blizz does "B" and 50% complains, then they need to re-evaluate. Voicing does serve a purpose. It helps Blizz connect the dots to a better product.
Post by
218246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DarkOpeth
Oh, wouldn't the world seem dull and flat with nothing whatever to grumble at?
um who? That user isn't registered on the forums. You can't have spaces in between your forum user name.
Fail.
As it is, I don't have an issue with them. Makes it easier to get my alts up and going without worrying about whether I'm speccing right.
ROFL. @ budgie. Made my day. :D
Post by
Xiamaru
If Bizz does "A" and only 10% of the community complains then they can assume it was well done. If Blizz does "B" and 50% complains, then they need to re-evaluate. Voicing does serve a purpose. It helps Blizz connect the dots to a better product.
Rereading my post, I can see I wasn't really getting my point through. But this is actually what i'm refering to. People may complain the new talent setup is bad, but if that only amounts to 10 % of the community, why should it matter? Problem is, even if 1 % complains, it will still be all over boards like this, and especially Blizzards own boards.
And then the real challenge begins.
Imagine sitting on the communication team, between the developers and the gamers. You see 7 out of 10 topics on the first page is complaints about the new talent trees. What would you do, and why? They really only have 2 choices. Tell the developers to bring back the old system, or keep the new one. Problem is, people tend to complain more than they praise, which means you almost need 50 bad comments to weight up 1 good (Not even close to reality, but just for the examples sake, I'm throwing out random numbers, that unless i'm extremely lucky, are wrong.).
This complicates the process. Let's say they kept the system (like they did), and see what then happens. They come back a couple of months later, and only see 1 out of 10 topics, that complain, and actually 2 that praise the new system. This means that, against all odds, the choice they made was the right one.
The real problem Blizzard's Development team have, is the fact that they can do one of two things: 1. let things stay as they are, which is easier for them, and prevents people from complaining about any new change they decided to gift their community with, or 2. make a large change to any mechanic, like the talent trees, or HP for Paladins, Focus for Hunters instead of Mana, ect, to make the game better and more interesting, and know they will have to listen to a #$%^-load of complaints from the gamers, cause let's face it - no change can be made, that doesn't make SOME people QQ/complain. I even saw a couple of threads about how rogues felt they were being f***** by Paladins because their "point building" system was MUCH better than their own. Even buffs to some classes make others QQ - it never ends, regardless of wtf they do. Some people will complain, and no one can change that.
That leaves us, as the gamers, with 2 choices - Let them make their changes, and embrace them, and learn to play with them, or QQ and whine till Blizzard at some point decided that people apparently prefers no change at all, and will stop improving the game completly.
So far, even being 100 % honest, I can say that only very few, non-important changes have been made to the game, throughout all of the time WoW have existed, that I can label as "bad" changes, that didn't bring any good. Even the removal of Perma-Tree of Life was nice, even if I hated it at first. Letting us have a meta-form was cool, and made Resto Druids feel even more different than the rest of the healers.
It is true that any company can only grow if its community matters - but voicing your opinion rarely makes them change their mind - What changes their minds, are the numbers that show Blizzard how much they have earned lately.
Hope this makes more sense than my previous post...
Post by
darkfusion5
The talent trees are not completely idiot proof; somehow I managed to miss 3/3 Furor on my resto druid. Derp.
Post by
Xiamaru
The talent trees are not completely idiot proof; somehow I managed to miss 3/3 Furor on my resto druid. Derp.
Not idiot proof - by no means. I've seen several Prot Paladins skip Grand Crusader. Just because something makes sense for us, doesn't mean everyone else was looking thoroughly at the trees, or that people make the same sense out of the talents that we do.
Post by
lonewarrior
If Bizz does "A" and only 10% of the community complains then they can assume it was well done. If Blizz does "B" and 50% complains, then they need to re-evaluate. Voicing does serve a purpose. It helps Blizz connect the dots to a better product.
Rereading my post, I can see I wasn't really getting my point through. But this is actually what i'm refering to. People may complain the new talent setup is bad, but if that only amounts to 10 % of the community, why should it matter? Problem is, even if 1 % complains, it will still be all over boards like this, and especially Blizzards own boards.
And then the real challenge begins.
Imagine sitting on the communication team, between the developers and the gamers. You see 7 out of 10 topics on the first page is complaints about the new talent trees. What would you do, and why? They really only have 2 choices. Tell the developers to bring back the old system, or keep the new one. Problem is, people tend to complain more than they praise, which means you almost need 50 bad comments to weight up 1 good (Not even close to reality, but just for the examples sake, I'm throwing out random numbers, that unless i'm extremely lucky, are wrong.).
This complicates the process. Let's say they kept the system (like they did), and see what then happens. They come back a couple of months later, and only see 1 out of 10 topics, that complain, and actually 2 that praise the new system. This means that, against all odds, the choice they made was the right one.
The real problem Blizzard's Development team have, is the fact that they can do one of two things: 1. let things stay as they are, which is easier for them, and prevents people from complaining about any new change they decided to gift their community with, or 2. make a large change to any mechanic, like the talent trees, or HP for Paladins, Focus for Hunters instead of Mana, ect, to make the game better and more interesting, and know they will have to listen to a #$%^-load of complaints from the gamers, cause let's face it - no change can be made, that doesn't make SOME people QQ/complain. I even saw a couple of threads about how rogues felt they were being f***** by Paladins because their "point building" system was MUCH better than their own. Even buffs to some classes make others QQ - it never ends, regardless of wtf they do. Some people will complain, and no one can change that.
That leaves us, as the gamers, with 2 choices - Let them make their changes, and embrace them, and learn to play with them, or QQ and whine till Blizzard at some point decided that people apparently prefers no change at all, and will stop improving the game completly.
So far, even being 100 % honest, I can say that only very few, non-important changes have been made to the game, throughout all of the time WoW have existed, that I can label as "bad" changes, that didn't bring any good. Even the removal of Perma-Tree of Life was nice, even if I hated it at first. Letting us have a meta-form was cool, and made Resto Druids feel even more different than the rest of the healers.
It is true that any company can only grow if its community matters - but voicing your opinion rarely makes them change their mind - What changes their minds, are the numbers that show Blizzard how much they have earned lately.
Hope this makes more sense than my previous post...
Voicing positive or negative to a change is like voting. if you don't vote you can't beef about the results. Maybe your vote won't make a difference, but you still should vote. People need to speak up and in some degree they do in places like WoWhead.
OP makes a thread about talent tree. Person "A" says "they suck"..person "B" response "hell no they are great" The posts and the debate goes back and forth. So like in this particular thread, people have voiced on both side of the aisle. There are tidbits of info that Blizz can gleam from reading them.
As you say, it is a complicated process trying to decipher your customers desires...I don't envy them.
All you, me and everyone else can do is post our feelings from our perspective. My point of reference starts Dec 07...I embraced the game and continued to play it from what made me a loyal WoW customer at that point in the game. Now someone who started playing August 09 may have a totally different perspective, then mine. Yet we both enjoy the game. From my timeline, I've seen more changes then the 09 player, and the more changes I've seen of late, the more frustrating I have become with the direction of the game. The game it seems, is to catering to a new breed of players and the likes of me are a fading minority. What else can I do but swim against the currents..voicing my opinion until I give up the WoW ghost :) peace.
Post by
MrSCH
Oh, wouldn't the world seem dull and flat with nothing whatever to grumble at?
um who? That user isn't registered on the forums. You can't have spaces in between your forum user name.
The sheer naïveté (sp?) makes it too hard to be horrible. Damn you!
Post by
64664
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
freedfromthereal
There's a few things that have been overlooked here, at least in terms of talent trees:
1) While yes, you're forced into one tree while leveling, you get dual-specced much, much earlier and much cheaper than we had it while leveling. And while yes, it can be annoying at times to not have some skills (As an Affliction Lock, for example, it was always nice to spec into the Fel...something or other that healed your pet for a portion of your damage done), newer players actually have access to a lot more than we did as we were leveling up which brings me to my second point.
2) Re-speccing is based on level rather than the number of respecs, which means that when you're a low level you can try out as many specs as you want, practically any number of times you want, with little or no issues in terms of cost. I remember how painful it was paying 40g+ to try out Destro on my Lock every 5 levels or so of Affliction grinding. While yes, the trees have been toned down significantly in terms of the sheer DPS increases they offer, you are given a much more flexible way to try all the specs while leveling.
3) Comparatively speaking we get the DPS boosts we did from our talent trees in the form of the passive bonuses. Are they fun and interesting? No, but most of the masteries are interesting in some form, or offer a different kind of DPS boost as opposed to more crit chance or crit damage.
Put these together and I like where Blizzard went with the talent trees. I like how I actually have interesting talents to take while leveling instead of passive bonuses, and I also like how instead of clicking on 20 base talents that I must have every time I respec, I can take different ones and actually mold the tree to my own personal preferences, without losing any of the major DPS talents.
Post by
Xiamaru
All you, me and everyone else can do is post our feelings from our perspective. My point of reference starts Dec 07...I embraced the game and continued to play it from what made me a loyal WoW customer at that point in the game. Now someone who started playing August 09 may have a totally different perspective, then mine. Yet we both enjoy the game. From my timeline, I've seen more changes then the 09 player, and the more changes I've seen of late, the more frustrating I have become with the direction of the game. The game it seems, is to catering to a new breed of players and the likes of me are a fading minority. What else can I do but swim against the currents..voicing my opinion until I give up the WoW ghost :) peace.
This is probably one of the more important posts in this topic to take note of. Yeah, the point in time in which you enter the game, will greatly impact on how these changes are taking form. But still, when thinking about it, a lot of the vanilla players who keep complaining about how things are going further and further away from how it started, also seem to forget quite a lot of the bad things the old way things worked.
With the latest patch, I've heard hordes of people complain about tanking being insanely hard (no idea how they find it so, but that's beside the point). By luck, I found a guy who've been playing since Wow first hit the stores. He was among the people who complained, and we had quite an interesting talk.
He hated how tanking was becoming harder, and the damage more insane, ect. yet when I made him remember back when it began, he slowly began to actually like the changes.
For those who don't know, all the way back to patch 1.x, tanks pretty much needed a different set for different kinds of bosses. A fire boss, AKA. Ragnaros, was kinda stupid to face without any fire resistance, and you did NOT go against Saphiron without any frost resistance, and so on. Today, most resistance gear is nothing short of useless, and taking it will make people laugh at you, and then kick you, simply for choosing so bad gear. I have a hard time mentioning even 1 blue piece of gear with resistance on them, and even the few that exists, are pretty useless anyway. You have some resistance from buffs, and that's enough. There is a reason the
beta bag
was made with such an obvious reference to the QQ'ing tanks did back then, but it wasn't exactly invalid complaints.
To be honest, when looking at the broader scope of how the game is going, I like it. I can't find many flaws, and those people point out to me, I can't really find as flaws. But that's an opinion, and each is entitled to his own.
Wall of text
An additional bunch of reasons why I enjoy the new talent trees so much :P
Post by
692108
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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