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BM hunter vs. Enh Shammy vs. any spec rogue
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Post by
134199
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Post by
Qlix
On topic with this, I dont beleive BM hunter should be in the contending, sorry. I think a marx hunter has much higher dps than BM, and for raiding I'd prefer a survival/marx hybrid (expose weakness ftw) on my side than any BM hunter. Most of that is due to bad rap, but also equally geared/skilled hunters will find the marx on top almost all the time.
you lost all credibility with this... thanks for the info about the caster though
/sigh
Post by
103184
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Post by
134199
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Post by
90283
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Post by
138850
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Post by
Qlix
Rogues should only need to wipe aggro ONCE for most boss fights. Assuming that the raid gives the tank a head start on aggro, a rogue would only need to Vanish once and it should be very hard for him to catch up to and pass the tank.
As for the main topic.. an equally geared and equally skilled rogue will always out-dps a hunter. Using your example, T5-level geared rogues will have tons of hit rating and haste. For rogues, haste scales their damage VERY well. A decent BM hunter can come close, but in most cases, the rogue will come out on top.
The shaman will usually be third.
never seen it... ive NEVER been out done by a rogue... and from all reports ive read rogues dont come out on top till BT...
Post by
103184
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Post by
sevenflow
Warriors scale better with gear, endgame a dw fury warrior is topping the dps.
Post by
CoroHD
Rogues should only need to wipe aggro ONCE for most boss fights. Assuming that the raid gives the tank a head start on aggro, a rogue would only need to Vanish once and it should be very hard for him to catch up to and pass the tank.
As for the main topic.. an equally geared and equally skilled rogue will always out-dps a hunter. Using your example, T5-level geared rogues will have tons of hit rating and haste. For rogues, haste scales their damage VERY well. A decent BM hunter can come close, but in most cases, the rogue will come out on top.
The shaman will usually be third.
never seen it... ive NEVER been out done by a rogue... and from all reports ive read rogues dont come out on top till BT...
A server with 1 guild in BT (according to yourself) doesn't exactly strike me as a great place to evaluate class viability in any sense (for comparison, the server I'm on has somewhere between 10-15 guilds doing BT, and at least 10 Warglaive sets to show for it (illidan-us btw)). If you are out-dpsing rogues by 300, either you are way over-geared for what you are doing, they are way under-geared for what they are doing, or they have no idea what they are doing (in both spec and skill).
yeah? so i suppose
Feint
isnt repeatable? And i assume by "free" you mean it doesnt cost the hunter anything. Mana is something and FD is on a longer CD than Feint is...
Feint
reduces
aggro, FD
wipes
it- huge difference.
ok... ill agree there is a difference. Im just tired of rogues and shamans coming off saying that hunters only do the damage they do because they can Feign Death. IMO a rogue should be spamming Feint as much as a hunter should be Feigning everytime its up. If a hunter doesnt... he pulls agro... same as a rogue. That rogue can Feint 3 times in the time it takes for me to FD once. Not a complete agro wipe no... but a "LARGE" reduction in threat. Hunters have no threat REDUCING abilities... just threat WIPING, rogues have no WIPING abilities rather REDUCING abilities and a much faster CD. Maybe i have to ask around but something tells me that most rogues out there dont spam it like they should and if they did... maybe we'd see something different.
Your above statement shows you have absolutely no idea how the rogue class works. Feign death only removes about 1k threat, which I will regain in about 2-4 seconds depending on if I have blessing of salvation or not. Not to mention it wastes energy that should be spent on DPS enhancing abilities.
But of course, rather than just say these things without backing myself up with any sort of non-anecdotal evidence, I will post this link:
http://www.wwsscoreboard.com/classplacings.php
That data is taken from an average of Wow Web Stats (essentially a raid-wide damage meter and then some) logs. For that site the logs are filtered so that blatantly wrong logs are not included, so it is accurate to the average. Though rogues do not dominate in every single category, they do beat hunters in all but one, magtheridon. However, just think of how that fight plays out. The rogues spend half of the first 2-3 minutes running around not DPSing, and with every bouncing ground shake we need to run back to Mag, as we have no intercept-like ability (unlike warriors...) and we need to be in melee range (...and unlike every ranged class). I'm sure you all noticed (assuming you looked at the link), that if you take all BC raid content, Rogues do the highest average DPS of all classes.
Seriously, if rogues wern't the best single target DPS we would have literally no use. Everything in raids are immune to sap/blind so our already limited CC is of no use. We have no buffs. Our only debuff (expose armor) is nearly useless because warriors have their sunder armor. So we do damage, and lots of it, and it should stay that way.
Post by
Qlix
/sigh
you cant say that my server isnt a good place to make such comparisons. At the moment its the server that
I
play on. So all that matters is who
I
play with. And like ive stated... before progression on our server
SUCKS
. Maybe that gimps me.. who knows but it doesnt change anything on
MY
server. You say i am probably overgeared for the places i run... or that i out gear the other players. I run Kara, ZA ad Gruul consistantly and have been in TK exactly 3 times, thats it, but in all those places... im top by 300dps no exceptions. Check my gear and the gear of guildies at my armory:
Samba - Unanimous - Gnomeregan US
I really didnt want this to turn into a debate at all, but once again, comparison threads had to become a flame war.
/sigh
*edit* and one more thing... i never once claimed to know how rogues work... i dont play one. Just stating what i know about Feint through rogues ive played with =)
Post by
120885
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Post by
138927
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Post by
92403
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Post by
Qlix
Hunters have no threat REDUCING abilities... just threat WIPING, rogues have no WIPING abilities rather REDUCING abilities and a much faster CD.
Vanish?
Sadly, Feint takes up energy which reduced damage output.
ah... forgot about Vanish...but thanks for helping me out and throwing another threat WIPING ability out there. The argument that "Feint takes up energy which reduces damage output" is just plain stupid though. FD takes up mana and i have to lay there a second therefore reducing damage output too. Come on now... build up enough threat to challenge the tank... vanish... then spam feint everytime its up and tell me you have threat issues.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Spamming feint is bad and of no use. On use agro reduction trinkets are bad and of no use.
The logic is simple : threat reduction is used in order to dps more, the only point in it is to be able to spend more time to dps. But the threat reduction skills only give you 2-3s dps back (ie 3s dps, 1s agro reduction, 3s dps, 1s agro reduction, ...).
While mathematically it's undisputable that you will gain dps time by using it (instead of just doing nothing), getting in such a situation is already a failure in itself as you are far from doing the dps you should be doing.
Either the tank is really bad and nothing you do is really going to help it, or you used vanish stupidly early (using vanish a few seconds later is worth 10 feints or more) or a combination of both.
In comparison to that, an agro wipe skill is godly : it uses up one GCD and then you're good to go for several minutes (if you use it at the right time in the fight). Rogues have only one while hunters can allow themselves to start very early if they want, but both have a major advantage over any other dps class (except mages).
Edit : since the feint cooldown is 10 seconds, the situation is even worse than what i depicted : you'll be mixing dps, feint and standing around doing nothing which will result in let's say halving the rogues dps potential or something.
Post by
Celdhyrean
If i had to compare to another situation that might help makes things clearer (from personnal experience) : if a moonkin is out of mana, he can wait for mana or go hit with a high AP weapon on the boss for added mana regen. The second solution will increase his dps somewhat as it increases the rates at chich he regenerates mana.
But in the end, what the moonkin should do is NOT be oom. Using a less expensive rotation, downranking, using mana regen consummables, whatever, but not be OOM. DPSing more the normal way is largely superior to having to resort to crutches that halve (or worse) your dps to continue the battle.
Same here with timing the agro wipe in order to be golden for the rest of the fight instead of looking at mana consumption.
Post by
132815
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Post by
Lemma
ok... my roommate and i just recently got into this debate about who the highest single target DPS class in the game would be and why.
The fact that your thread title says "any spec rogue" when discussing highest single-target dps tells me neither you or your friend knows rogues so why would I read your entire post?
To answer your question though
Warlock
Mage
Hunter
Rogue
are the highest single-target dps classes. The fact that you included enh shamans in the competition is a LOLWTF. The only way they could come close is if they didnt' share any totems and what raid environment would have that? If you don't believe me, ask this guy...
Im an enhancement shaman and the rogue in my guild that always out dps's me in raids by a good margin, becomes a very small margin when i stop droping windfury totem for him.
Post by
Lemma
Enhance Shammies are support/DPS.
Equally geared rogues and hunters should always beat them on DPS.
Exactly. I know shamans get butthurt about this but consider this... if you didn't have totems, do you think a raid would take you?
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