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Assassination, Combat, or Subtlety?
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Post by
105900
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Remx
Wildhorn, while you should always feel free to challenge my input on these forums, in this case the simple fact is that I'm right. I'm aware that you're a big supporter of subtlety, but it's still not the best tree to level with - no matter how much you doubt it, combat is the fastest route.
I'm not behind the times, and I levelled up just like the rest of you. I've known what's what in the past, and I still know what's what now. I hate to admit it but I've got an embarrassing amount of /played clocked up on all of my rogues (yes, my alts are rogues too) and in the years I've spent playing the class I like to think I've picked up a pretty good understanding of just about anything and everything to do with it.
Post by
125385
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Wildhorn
Once you get as many lvl 70 as I have, you get a pattern and know where to quest and how to quest to get it fast.
And like Slokov said, smart people do green quest or 1 lvl under them yellow quest, because it is easier, so faster, and Sub just shine in there.
And Remx, I am sure you are a good rogue and I know i am a Sub supporter, but, it is not because you do something wrong alot that make you better at it.
Post by
Remx
I can see you're not going to come around, so I won't bother trying to convince you further.
For those who do want a definitive answer (and the correct one); subtlety does not offer more up-front DPS than combat at all. Combat specs lead to a quicker kill rate while levelling (no matter what level/type the mob is) and
are
the most efficient specs to level with.
Holding onto an inaccurate opinion tightly does not make it any less inaccurate.
Post by
Wildhorn
I can see you're not going to come around, so I won't bother trying to convince you further.
For those who do want a definitive answer (and the correct one); subtlety does not offer more up-front DPS than combat at all. Combat specs lead to a quicker kill rate while levelling (no matter what level/type the mob is) and
are
the most efficient specs to level with.
Holding onto an inaccurate opinion tightly does not make it any less inaccurate.
What make you think that you are right and I am wrong?
Post by
Remx
I can see you're not going to come around, so I won't bother trying to convince you further.
For those who do want a definitive answer (and the correct one); subtlety does not offer more up-front DPS than combat at all. Combat specs lead to a quicker kill rate while levelling (no matter what level/type the mob is) and
are
the most efficient specs to level with.
Holding onto an inaccurate opinion tightly does not make it any less inaccurate.
What make you think that you are right and I am wrong?
Knowledge, experience, research? Hell,
the facts
? I don't think I'm right... I actually know I'm right.
Combat being the most efficient spec for levelling really is considered common knowledge within the community - it's not even debated that often, if at all. Sure, the occasional subtlety fan will spout off about how subtlety is x times more fun than combat, and some will likely agree with them. At the end of the day though, the talents of each tree are the only determinant of which spec is really more effective - and from a comparison, most are able to note why combat comes out on top when it comes to pace.
Just take a look at the talents in each tree. Afterwards, if you still can't see why combat is a more advantageous path during levelling.... then I really don't know a way to reach you.
Post by
106896
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Wildhorn
levelled from 1 to 60 as combat, from 61 to 70 as subtelty.
I agree with what Remx says, combat is the fastest way to lvl. (but subtelty at later levels was more fun)
It is like saying, From when I was born to 40 yo old I alway weared blue clothes and ran very fast, and from 40 to 90 yo I alway weared red cloth and was not running as fast. Blue clothes make you run much more faster.
Did you start to level up after the xp buff? pre-xp buff? pre-tbc?
Combat being the most efficient spec for levelling really is considered common knowledge within the community - it's not even debated that often, if at all.
Just like Earth being plane was considered common knowledge back in time and was not even debated.
Just take a look at the talents in each tree. Afterwards, if you still can't see why combat is a more advantageous path during levelling.... then I really don't know a way to reach you.
Do you mind to show me what you want me to look at?
Because me I see alot more useful thing to lvl up in Sub tree than combat.
Cheaper opener, armor reduction, extra combo point on opener, death prevention, time saving between mobs
Post by
Remx
Combat
Damage efficiency:
Improved sinister strike
Improved slice and dice
Precision
Dual wield specialisation
Sword specialisation
Blade flurry
Weapon expertise
Adrenaline rush
Aggression
Combat potency
Surprise attacks
Damage mitigation:
Deflection
Riposte
Subtlety
Damage efficiency:
Initiative
Serrated blades
Dirty deeds
Deadliness
Sinister Calling
Damage mitigation:
Ghostly strike
Cheat death
Initiative's damage contribution is minimal. It generally facilitates an extra combo point to slice and dice's length, which is a moot point when you can pick up improved slice and dice in the combat tree instead.
Deadliness and sinister calling are of a lower benefit when levelling as you simply to not have the gear to take advantage of them. Serrated blades is on a scale, the lower your level the less effective it is.
All of the talents I've listed under combat provide direct effects to either damage efficiency or mitigation. With the exception of dirty deeds, the subtlety talents do not. Not to mention they're far fewer and appear mostly towards the end of the tree itself.
Post by
106896
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Wildhorn
I would not add Improved slice and dice as a useful thing to level up. I dont know for you but, I only had time to use 1 finisher before the mob died and it would barely have any seconds left when you get to next mob.
Riposte as dmg mitigation is situational
And of course in your list you added all combat cooldown but none of Sub...
Post by
130313
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Remx
You should be spending your first couple combo points on immediately activating slice and dice.
If you want to argue how certain abilities are situational, take a look at cheat death.
The list I posted wasn't selectively biased. I added all the talents from both trees that regularly add or mitigate damage. Perhaps you'd care to point out any I missed.
Post by
106896
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Wildhorn
You missed Shadowstep and Premeditation and Hemo
Post by
Remx
Hemo itself isn't a net gain in damage efficiency, it's no more effective than sinister strike. Less energy, less damage.
Premeditation is a relatively long cooldown, and even though it comes into play more often than say, adrenaline rush, its benefit is far smaller.
Shadowstep is pushing it. Its main function is mobility - though the slight damage buff to a single attack might end a fight a second or two earlier I guess.
Even if you were to add the above three talents to the subtlety list, you still should be able to notice a distinct qualitative discrepancy between the two lists. Forget quantity for a moment, instead consider the extent to which each talent truly benefits a rogue during repetitive combat. Surely you can notice the difference between the two lists...
Post by
Duracell
I think people should be careful what they advise when newer players ask for advice on levelling. Combat is far and away the fastest and -easiest- spec to level with. The rotation is very simple Cheap shot -> Slice and Dice -> Sinister Strike, building towards a 4 or 5 point Eviscerate.
Telling people to level with sub daggers is setting up players to get frustrated and feeling relatively powerless when there is a much better option out there. The levelling spec detailed in the compendium is the ideal, and rogues are lucky that there is one 'best' spec for levelling compared to other classes.
Riposte, Adrenalin Rush, Blade Flurry, Sword Spec, Combat Potency and Surprise Attacks provide the strongest foundation for burning down mobs fast with the minimum of downtime. I have tried other specs for levelling and they simply do not compare.
Added to this there are a large number of very good swords to be picked up from lvl 20-60 such as Sword of Omen, Vanquisher's blade, Thrash Blade, Hanzo Sword. You will not find an equivalent set of daggers for levelling and the two weapon slots are by far and away the most important ones for a rogue.
Combat is the only spec that is able to deal with 1 or 2 adds. Using any other spec, you will either die, have to run away or barely come out alive. If you try and eliminate Adds by pulling the mobs you give up your main weapon which is starting the fight in stealth.
Post by
Phagus
I am relatively new to the rogue class and came here for inspiration as to how best use my talents and I have to say that, following Remx recommendations, Combat is by far and away the best build for leveling.
At lvl 34 I can solo up to 3 lvl 36-37 mobs at a time without requiring to vanish. (I conceed that before the nerf, this may not have been possible)
I attribute this to both my current choice of gear AND the Combat build I have taken from the Compendium.
EDIT - I use Swords btw, and use the Cheap Shot - Slice 'n Dice - SS - Evis. method.
Post by
130313
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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