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Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
OK. Let's see.
Please define "execution" for me, specifically successful execution, because it seems to me to be a combination of knowledge of an encounter and practice. Not sure where you're drawing the line there.
The capability to perform the raid strategy previously defined and correctly react to unexpected variables during the fight.
With that said, Skill is a combination of Knowledge and Execution.
From what I gather, at least.
What is fallacious about my assertion? You seem to think that because I'm not in the same place as you in the "raid progression race" that I'm less skilled somehow?
Short answer, yes. If, on equal variables (Same progression time-wise, similar gear) he's able to clear more than your group, his group is more skilled.
When ICC has been out for so long and the buff makes gear almost trivial in ICC raid gear requirements, both variables are mitigated seriously. You don't need 20 hours of videos showing strategies, you need good execution - and "skill".
On what basis can you make such a claim? If my raid were as well-geared as yours, it would imply that we had spent as much actual time gearing up, acquiring "skill" all the while, which is acquired, as you say, "every time I sit down and play it, just like any other player who has a mind to benefit from the experience he gets," i.e. when you spend actual time playing the game. This statement by itself agrees with the main thrust of my argument. As I have demonstrated, I and my guild haven't spent as much time playing the game as yours has, and so haven't acquired the gear that your group has. Equally geared though, it would really boil down to raw talent and aptitude, I would imagine, unless you are intentionally disregarding experience spent gaining equivalent gear. Is there any other fight in the game like Halion?
You're not on the same grounds. Aestu cleared it with a 0% buff. You're struggling with a 30% buff. So, yeah. It's not like the 0% buff was out for months and months, while experience struggling with a fight @ 5%, 25% or 30% will obviously provide the knowledge needed for the fight.
You claim that your "skill" comes purely from the experience you've gained "every time I sit down and play it, just like any other player who has a mind to benefit from the experience he gets." That you would then turn and judge others by a criterion you call "skill" that in reality is purely a reflection of the time you and your guild has spent practicing playing the game is kind of sad, because real life and actual time spent playing the game *does* have an impact on how much practice one gets to put into the game, which does impact progression. You just get your panties in a bunch because you want the time you've spent to be meaningful, and resent that means have been placed in the game to "cheapen" your accomplishment. You wiped on PP 12 times before succeeding, and I've only wiped in at least three different groups maybe a total of 7 times before downing him, but that "doesn't matter," is "not meaningful" because there was a 25% or 30% buff in place when I made my attempts. Never mind how geared the raid was, never mind how experienced the raid team was with working with one another; that you're unwilling to consider reasonable, real mitigating factors only demonstrates pettiness for the sake of protecting your own accomplishments.
There's a difference between raiding something months after it's released, when strategies are out and have been perfected, all videos are shown, and wowhead has detailed comment on everything. "How geared the raid was" is severely mitigated by the buff.
I admit the part about raiding with one another being a factor. As a healer, it's hard for me to integrate a guild. My inner tendance is to heal anything that drops below 100%; If my assigned targets are full on HP and I have Serendipity stacked up if things go to the red zone, I'm easilly throwing flashes to targets I believe that are not-so-protected. This starts happening less and less as I delve deeper into the guild.
You are wrong. The best way of difining skill IS when a raid comes out. The ability to react to the problems before good or perfect strategies are even defined for the masses IS what settles the line between a bad guild, a normal guild, a good guild and a shooting-for-world-firsts guild.
Very good (Skilled) players can complete the Lich King 10 man after 4 or 5 tries of trial and error, because they can see what's wrong. To find what is wrong doesn't take time, it takes knowledge and skill.
When all the killstrats are out and long-known, and gear is a non-issue, time investment takes the back seat and skill severely determines the outcome.
Post by
HoleofArt
+1 to cloudp.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
44284
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
You are wrong. The best way of difining skill IS when a raid comes out. The ability to react to the problems before good or perfect strategies are even defined for the masses IS what settles the line between a bad guild, a normal guild, a good guild and a shooting-for-world-firsts guild."
Without measuring the actual time each guild or member has invested in attempting the content, any valuation of "skill" is relative, and almost all killstrats are well-documented and available on youtube before the "official" content is released thanks to the "shooting-for-world-firsts" guilds taking on the content in the PTRs.
Nope. It's the clearest measure of skill there is. Allow me to provide an example. Paragon downed the Lich King Heroic 25 with a rotation of Shadow Resistance Aura Mastery Paladins. That strat proved excelent, and allowed them to be the only guild ever to clear this boss on this difficulty (I believe Ensidia and the others were all done 10%+? Can't recall, but doesn't matter). Paragon used an imperfect strat to perfect their problems during the fight (AM rotation made up for the clear lack of gear), and succeeded where no one else could. They could take a strat, but didn't simply execute it, they took it to perfection. That kind of skill is immeasurable the moment Paragon pulicised how they did it. Same with any fight - knowing the outlines doesn't teach you everything about the encounter. That's up to how good of a raider you, and everyone in your raid, are.
Don't get me wrong. Time investment plays it's part. Just a very, very small part nowadays.
Another example is Heigan. You can be in full ICC25HC gear and fail it. (Well... let's assume all dps are sleeping and Heigan isn't blown up before phase 2 even begins). The dance is surprisingly easy to do, yet so many cannot. It doesn't take exactly a year for people to grasp the fight; one video or even one run where everyone but 2 players wipe and show them how to do it is enough. Execution still failling after 1-2 wipes shows lack of skill, or really high latency.
I've been refraining from taking part on the rest of the discussion. I don't really think Aestu want to personally damage you or your guild. He's just cold, and most of what he says is devoid of emotion.
He's kinda like Algalon, except you can't raid him.
After re-reading the comments, I can see you getting worked up, but mostly as overinterpreting what he says. Yeah, he's cold, but don't take it personally - he's trying to prove his point, not to attack your guild. He could have said it by other words, but he didn't.
@Paladingod, Actually the discussion became quite interesting and very good points have been raised. If you couldn't support your points, really, it's fine; but you're just plainly trolling now.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HoleofArt
If what he was saying was merely devoid of emotion, he wouldn't have such a chip on his shoulder about "guilds thinking they're skilled when they're clearly not, which makes therir runs worse than a random pug," or call me a hardcore bad, when I actually haven't attempted some of the content before. He's just an arrogant college student with too much time on his hands and a skewed world view - I refer you to his post on pug raiding, now locked. It's evident that much of his identity is wrapped up in this game though, which is why he takes it so seriously.
Now your losing any validity in your arguments.
Strawman argument is a strawman.
He never directly said you were a hardcore bad. He said people with your attitude towards this game, along with your type of guilds, were the hardcore bads in this game.
And he's right. You are indeed not skilled at this game if you can't down REGULAR Putricide with a 30 PERCENT BUFF compared to people with 0 PERCENT BUFF and LESS GEAR who downed it.
Caps for emphasis.
Also; paladingod, stop trolling.
You're acting butt-hurt and childish.
Post by
abulurd
While Aestu has been a tad harsh in some of his points, he's essentially correct. At this point in time I have pugged 11/12 on 10 man without ever having played with any of the pugged people before in icc. Again, 30% buff plus 264 gear help. At this point in the game with the 30% buff and the gear that you already have, you should be able to down PP with a week of attempts max, even in a casual guild.
One thing to consider as a piece of advice is to extend the raid lockout, which is what my guild did when we decided we were sick of having a half raid night a week to practice on the Lich King. We extended and after 5 or so solid attempts we downed him, with 12-15 of us getting the Kingslayer title.
The point I'm trying to make is that at this point gear shouldn't be an issue, especially with the buff. If you are really serious about downing stuff, extend lockouts, try different strategies, etc.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Varaconn
He never directly said you were a hardcore bad. He said people with your attitude towards this game, along with your type of guilds, were the hardcore bads in this game.
And he's right. You are indeed not skilled at this game if you can't down REGULAR Putricide with a 30 PERCENT BUFF compared to people with 0 PERCENT BUFF and LESS GEAR who downed it.
Caps for emphasis.
Also; paladingod, stop trolling.
You're acting butt-hurt and childish.
Though I recall a direct statement as such at some point during the thread, it was heavily implied in every post aimed at Armill (and Paladin, come to think of it) to the point of unnecessary condescension. With each post that went by, it strayed further from "this is why I'm right" to "this is why I'm better than you," which really isn't relevant or necessary.
The point being made is not that guilds are automatically better than PUGs. I would not make that assertion either -- I've seen a number of PUGs successful in getting at least 10 or 11/12, or sometimes downing LK, while my paladin is currently extending a raid ID helping tank ICC for my girlfriend's old guildies.
However, an assertion I
would
make is that, assuming you somehow found two sets of identically geared/skilled players, except one raid was pure PUG, the other was pure guild, I would argue the point that -- and I believe this is what Armill and Paladingod are trying to say -- the guild would be more successful. By this I mean, repeated wipes on Putricide, on Blood Queen, in Sindragosa, before getting them down.
Frankly, the other night raiding, with the people rolling in the group, I really didn't think we were going to get anywhere on Putricide, I thought it was a lost cause. Phase 2 wipes galore, and stupid wipes, too. Then, after X number of attempts, making adjustments, gelling to each other, something clicked, and we did it with ease. Now, why do I think we did better than an identical PUG group would have?
What are the chances that the PUG group would have lasted that long? I mean, honestly. You really think they would have held together past a 3rd or so wipe? Give me a break.
Also, I wanted to add -- just because a group doesn't succeed, at least quickly, it doesn't mean that each individual player in the group is bad. My rogue is in a 25-man guild that regularly steamrolls the entire instance up to LK. We have him down, but not at an art just yet, so it usually takes a couple of attempts. The fights are designed in such a way that, in an average skilled group, one or two slackers can ruin the entire thing.
However, I tank this group as a favour to my girlfriend and her friends. I have fun doing it as well. I don't care what you guys try to say. That's the important part.
Edit: I realise the discussion/argument/what have you has veered from this issue, but this was, at the point of when I was actively following this thread for a bit of entertainment, originally, the crux and root of where the issue has come to.
Post by
cloudp
The capability to perform the raid strategy previously defined and correctly react to unexpected variables during the fight.
With that said, Skill is a combination of Knowledge and Execution.
How about this one: if I had as much time to spend actually playing the game as any of you, I would be as "skilled" as you.
That is possible, but not an implication. People can do the same fight a hundred times and commit the very same mistakes the same hundred of times, especially with a fixed raid group. Wow can be played passivelly, and doing a fight 100 times doesn't have to give me insight into the fight. I don't need to know 4 roles, but threy're being taken (Tank, Healer, Caster, Melee). Playing 100 times the same fight as a tank doesn't HAVE to give me perfect fight knowledge. Why would I need to know the mechanics of Necrotic Aura in Loatheb as a tank? I can do nothing to stop it. But surelly a healer raiding naxx for some time knows that. You see, there's a lot of ifs implied. You'd be as experienced as any of us (them, because I barelly even play), but would that imply good execution and knowledge, therefore skill, on the fight? No.
You see, skill itself's importance also decays overtime.
As you've rightfully claimed, shooting-for-world firsts have PTR strategies. But they don't have the perfected, all-nitpicky trick found strat of months of trial and error later (Ice block this! it works! Rogue's Cloak removes this!, while under the pressure of world firsts, may not present an opportunity to test it. GCGs have to be efficiently used to maximise your role.). As I said before, the clearest skill test is right when a raid is out. I didn't say that blankly.
Not to mention situational awareness, implied in Execution; that's not as influenced by time as you're saying. Someone always failing to move out of fire will eventually get it with time, true. But if said fires start RNGing and showing at unexpected places, they may fall for it again.
Post by
93865
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Varaconn
You care enough to get defensive rather than just accept perhaps you are not so good, or to insist upon the fundamental superiority of even a poor guild to a pug. Whereas if you did not care, you wouldn't get defensive or make arguments, you'd just say, "Whether it's a good or bad approach or we're skilled or not is immaterial, we play the way we enjoy."
The pretense of indifference is significant to what this whole thread is fundamentally about - "guild run" pugs versus pure pugs, and the implied self-bias in the former.
Technically this thread is about someone who got qq whispers about reserved loot, but that's long gone.
I was merely stating my position and attempting to clarify a diluted subject. You, and others, have twisted not only the original topic, but the offtopic tangent, into something completely different, relying on personal attacks and ego boosts to back up your arguments.
However, your statement is, in fact, exactly what I just said. I know I'm a decent player. I don't feel it's necessary to explain that here, nor do I understand your need to contest it. However, I choose not to play in a competitive environment because it removes the enjoyment from the game for me. I enjoy raiding in a laid-back environment. If we get bosses down, sweet. It doesn't bother me if it takes time, or we don't get them down at all some nights because of a few weak links.
Also, you're still missing the deal here. No one's saying even poor guilds are better than all PUGs, what others are trying to say is that between guilds and PUGs of equal skill, the guild will be better because of their cohesion.
Listen, I'm not here to argue -- if you want to twist my words around, that's your prerogative. Just try not to get so distracted with looking at yourself in the mirror that you completely miss the point.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cloudp
I don't think you're getting it, armill. Aestu's point on the whole thread isn't about pugs>guild runs. It's about how a guild is very, very likelly to react facing various degrees of defeat, and not always being a positive stand for their member's progression.
A guild composed of 20 very good buds playing the game for fun may wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe and wipe again on Heigan, say. As they're very good buds, they'll stick together no matter what. They aren't very good but they stick together. A PuG of randoms would dissolve so much sooner - and game-wise benefit the players leaving, since an hour of wipes on heigan doesn't make anyone better.
The point being. Guilds are bound to, even if failing, "mask" their members' lack of skill. Note, I'm not saying this happens to you - I don't think I ever implied on any of my posts that anything of what I say happens in your case, and if so you thought, it's a misunderstanding - it's not what I meant.
Gameplay and character progression-wise,
this is obviously indiferent if the guild clears every boss. If the guild does not, it is detrimental, because you could simply be on a more sucessful guild of more competent players and take their positive bias.
It's all about goals. If yours is getting to the top, you're on the wrong way. If yours is to have fun, you do as you please. If you feel satisfied by doing what you do, why would you stop? Aestu's point, I believe, is that for someone wanting progression, being on certain guilds IS detrimental, even if they're the best buds.
As Aestu himself said,
A positive bias is by definition also a negative bias
What is it you are trying to prove? If your point is that guild runs are better because they stick together, I'd readily agree. But again, the guild runs that are worth joining for that reason don't pug in the first place.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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