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Warrior TPS in ICC
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Post by
Veggiemite
Hey, I was wondering what kind of threat per second you guys are putting out in single target unlimited rage scenarios. (as warriors)
I'm asking because at the start of most fights I have to struggle to keep threat above the dps and the other tank. Obviously I could tell the dps to MD more or the other tank to "chill" however this hasn't been a problem at all until ICC. The 20% buff probably has a ton to do with it, however my 7.5k TPS with Vig on a dps or a tank seems kinda low.
I'm thinking im not getting all of the heroic strikes in so I'll check my ratio of melee hits to heroic strike hits in recount tonight, and if that's the problem I'll probably make a 2nd bar for boss fights with HS macroed to most of my abilities.
My rotation is: SW>revenge>shield slam>dev>keep debuffs up (using heroic strike the whole time)
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Mal%27Ganis&cn=Bloodsurge
I do realize im not exp capped but with the food it puts me at 21 exp, and im getting the 264 chest soon which has expertise on it.
Post by
Sakkura
Fix your spec. 1/5 one-handed weapon spec is killing your threat, and those two points in imp charge are not really that helpful when they're not getting you to deep wounds/impale. Booming voice.... No.
Post by
Veggiemite
oh damn, didn't even realize that I only had 1/5 in there.
I'll see how that works for me tonight at our raid, hopefully I'll be able to show my Dk tank who's boss :P
Post by
536904
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Veggiemite
yeah I meant the ">" as greater then in terms of priority. I use to be deep wounds but I threat isn't that much of a problem that I want to choose threat talents over survivability talents.
Thanks for all the input so far.
Post by
Daluur
I see a problem in our prio list, on single target you should use SS (shield slam) > revenge, and on multi target, revenge > SS
I don't have any issues in there, and I'm not expertise nor hit capped, 17 expertise and 219 hit ;)
I havn't seen your gear (your in dps gear on armory), but I would go with deep wounds/Impale spec, it does generate alot of threat during a fight.
Post by
Veggiemite
Apparently the TPS increase if do it the other way around (ss and then revenge) is so minor it doesn't even matter unless you get extremely lucky with S&B procs every time.
About spec'ing deep wounds, I said threat isn't that much of a problem that I want to spec threat talents over survivability talents (commanding presence+imp demo shout)
Thanks for all the replies, I did around 10k TPS on Blood queen yesterday with vig on the OT.
Is that around where I'm suppose to be or do you guys get higher?
Post by
141313
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Praest
I'm thinking im not getting all of the heroic strikes in so I'll check my ratio of melee hits to heroic strike hits in recount tonight, and if that's the problem I'll probably make a 2nd bar for boss fights with HS macroed to most of my abilities.
I've bound HS to scrollwheel up (and Cleave to scrollwheel down). It makes it real easy to queue up HS/Cleave when the rage is there and just keep it up until my rage drops. In most cases I don't even have to think about it, because I know rage is pouring in and I just keep queueing it up almost continously throughout the fight.
Post by
Porcell
I've actually found I'm struggling with threat now, to the point where I'm thinking about dropping Glyph of Heroic Strike (which I probably should have dropped a long time ago) and picking up Vigilance.
The problem is the 20% damage buff, combined with good DPS, and DPS that don't necessarily pick up threat reduction talents (like our Frost DK DPS).
Looking at my Bloodqueen 10mH from last night, which is about as optimal a fight rotation as we can get, I see that ~20% of my threat was "hidden" and not subject to the 20% damage buff. Furthermore, I'm only doing about 9800 TPS.
HS, 153 times, 298k damage
Dev, 65 times, 231k damage
SS, 33 times, 186k damage
Rev, 22 times, 142k damage
DW, 148 ticks, 38k damage
Damage Shield, 41 ticks, 20k damage
Ret Aura, 40 ticks, 9k damage
H-Throw, 1 hit, 3k damage
TC, 1 hit, 1200 damage
Melee, 1 hit, 1k damage
.
Anyway, going through those numbers, I divided by 120% to find what my damage would have been without the buff. I also individually calculated the threat bonus of each ability.
Without 20% buff: 776,872 damage, 156,200 hidden threat, (776,872+156,200)*2.0735*1.02 = 1,973,401 total threat over 235 seconds, 8400 Threat Per Second
With 20% buff: 932,252 damage, 156,200 hidden threat, (932,252+156,200)*2.0735*1.02 = 2,302,891 total threat over 235 seconds, 9800 Threat Per Second
Now this is about as optimal a fight as I can get. 100% heroic strike conversion, about as perfect as I can be in distribution of skills. Stand still, infinite rage. I didn't have a huge amount of dodges/parries (HS 2 dodge / 22 parry, Dev 4 parry, SS 2 parry, Rev 5 parry).
The 20% damage buff only buffed my threat by 16.7%. I'm scaling less than the DPS. On an optimal fight I'm going from 3.3k DPS and 8.4k TPS up to about 4k DPS and 9.8k TPS. Compare that to a DPSer that's doing anywhere from 10k to 13k DPS in my 10 mans. 11k DPS without the buff, with an 80% threat modifier, is 8.8k TPS. With the 20% buff, that's 13.2k DPS and 10.5k TPS. DPS's damage and threat scale equally.
Normal vigilance gets me an extra 1k TPS. With glyph of vigilance it would be another 500 TPS. Maybe that's what I'm going to have to do. Glyph of Vigilance would be about a 5% threat increase.
It was really getting me down. Watching Omen on my Sindragosa pulls last night, my Omen is bouncing around between 7K and 12K TPS depending on what abilties are landing. The second on threat, the frost DK, spikes up to 20k TPS at times. He's not getting Tricks or anything, he just bursts that high at times. God forbid an early SS or Revenge gets dodged or parried, because I'll lose agro.
Post by
Veggiemite
If threat isnt a big problem then tell you DPS to step it up :P
No but seriously I've been running around with a DW spec since forever and went 5/15/51 for our HC encounters to get more HP from Commanding Presence. Since when checkin logs most of the time i died from overkill 1-3k on hits. Thats just that little edge what it gives then. But on the negative side the loss in threat was substantial. I really had to work hard for a change to stay ahead in threat from my top dpsers.
You say you spec for survivability, but not threat. Why not take 5/5 CP in stead of 4/5. Loose the point in cruelty.
Also loose the sunder glyph and get glyph of Last Stand. I cant tell how many times that boy saved my life.
Since you are well over defcap. Replace the enchants on back and shield.
And if you just got your weapon ok. Else shame on you for not having it enchanted. Get Blooddraining, imo THE tank enchant.
If you can, go back to toc10 hc and see if you can get the Ardent guard and Shield from Anub there. Armor on weapon is just tha bomb! And the shield is a big stam increase.
Have i mentioned sta is tha bomb? Anyways do your best to keep exp/hit capped. And its all fine
GL
I can't take those points out of cruelty (5 points per row remember?)
I'll see if I can get into a togc 10, then lets just hope lucks on my side.
I don't feel last stand glyph is worth it, I tried it at and not much. I die when people do stupid %^&* during fights. The extra % on the last stand is kinda useless when I only use it as a kinda of super health potion to get me to survive another hit (have it macod with the skeleton key health armor potion and enrage regen). However I may just glyph it and try using it proactively and see how that works.
The only reason why I'm not freaking out over threat at the moment is I can barely stay above the dps. And most fights have some crap that the ranged dps (our highest dps'ers) have to do.
I.E saurfang - adds, rotface - doing the ooze stuff, BQ - biting. So if I can stay ahead long enough I'll get a break when dps threat has a momentary lull.
I'm guessing that my 10k TPS is fine and threat in ICC for warriors (or all tanks?) is a bit hectic at the moment. Thanks for all the replies appreciate it.
Post by
lonewarrior
Remove the 4 point CP. Pally in raids will provide Blessings that over ride your Battle Shout and the additional health improve it gives to commanding shout isn't worth it.
Also with all the 15% crit specs in prot tree..not getting an additional 20% crit damage bonus from impale is gimping your threat dps.
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LA0M0bZhbZVctrx0didcksGo
I left 3 points available. The standard cookie cutting spec would put those in deep wound for additional dps. You could only put one point in it, to help a mutilate rogue keep up Hunger for Blood and the rest in cruelty to improve your crit chance.
I also only have on point in improved intercept. You could put that point any place else in the tree to get you to the next line. Improved intercept is a very situational spec. Not saying its not useful.
As an OT..if we were doing a boss that allowed me some freedom of movement.. I would use it on the main tank as often as I could to reduce his damage taken. Like phase 1&3 Onyxia or when the other tank had aggro on Gormok and/or Ice Howl. If you find yourself using it on single boss fights to save healer/dps then you have a more pressing concern.
Post by
Porcell
Deep Wounds is more threat per talent point than Cruelty. Put points in Deep Wounds before you put them in Cruelty. Points in tactical master are very much wasted. You would be better off putting the 2 points into Improved Charge, especially since you can charge in combat with Warbringer.
Post by
lonewarrior
The reason for tactical mastery is for the times when as an OT you can switch to battle stance and keep enough rage to use Shattering Throw. Yes improved charged will do as well.
Post by
567258
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
567258
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Sakkura
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LAM00fZhZVItrx0didczsGo:dANmzo
this is my current spec... your's should look similar to that.
im not sure as to what my glyphs are cuz its been awhile since i have looked at them but i think those are the ones I'm running with. but i plan on changing them soon because glyph of thunderclap reduces the cd by 3sec which means more thunderclaps and more threat pretty much.
What
?
Your spec is fine except you really shouldn't take imp. disciplines without glyph of shield wall.
Post by
567258
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
not many good minor glyphs for tanking... i dont need glyph of battle shout. what would you suggest for 3 good minor glyphs. it also helps when i tank oozes on rotface
Huh? Your minor glyphs are fine, it's your major glyphs that are a bit off. First, Shockwave is a terrible glyph. And Sakkura was saying that taking Improved Disciplines (-1 minute to ShieldWall CD) is an odd choice when not coupled with Major Glyph of Shield Wall (-2 minute CD, but 40% reduced damage instead of 60%). You can read more on the topic here:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/07/03/buffing-shield-wall-the-whole-the-parts/
Post by
Veggiemite
you should make macros of your moves... in icc i pull on average about 9-10k tps. my charge and heroic throw are macro'd so i press heroic throw once and i instantly charge. Heroic throw is a high threat causing move so for the intial threat its ideal you do that. then i open up with shield slam because of the threat buff blizz gave it. then i'll commence to use thunderclap and devastate.
.
Why maco heroic strike to thunderclap? I use thunder clap only once every 20 - 30 secs a boss fight.
No offense but I don't need my charge macro'd to heroic throw, I can press both just fine and sometimes (a lot) I need my heroic throw for a gag order.
Im wondering why everyone seems to have apprehension against Commanding prez spec. What I gather from here my 10k TPS is right were it should be. I don't run with a ret pally in my raid group so imp demo shout is a must in my case. And the extra health is just awesome icing on the cake.
I'm also curious, why so much love for the vig glyph? It's only providing a max of 500TPS which isn't bad, but the other major glyphs we have seem so much better.
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