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Combat slows and how to convince people they work.
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Post by
365547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
So I ended up with a discussion with some of my guildies who claim that any type of combat slow does not affect raid bosses.
By combat slow I mean things like thunderclap, infected wounds, frost fever and judgement of the just that make a boss attack 20% slower when all the needed talents are taken.
Thus I ask to wowhead and its users:
Am I indeed mistaken that they do not affect raidbosses, which is unlikely but possible, or do they work as I always thought?
And more importantly is there any blue post or any other reliable source that can give a definite answer. I tried EJ, tankspot and other trustworthy sources, but I can't find any evidence.
Common sense? Read the debuff that is applied to the boss?
Post by
Archibolt
They do work, but they just don't stack with each other.
If you take a snapshot of a boss' debuff, it is unlikely that you see the slowing debuff of Thunder Clap, Infected Wound or Judgement of the Just all at the same time.
But yeah as Porcell said, it's down to common sense really. Why would paladin tanks waste 2 points on Judgement of the Just if the slow doesn't work on bosses?
Edit: If you need proof, then have your guildies check any WoL parse on any bosses.
If the slow doesn't affect bosses then it means that they are immune to the application of said slow debuff. If they are immune then the debuff cannot land on it. If the debuff cannot land on the boss then it shouldn't show up on the logs.
This
combat log
of one of the paladin tanks on Festergut 25. Judgement of the Just is quite clearly up on the debuff applied list. It shows a 48.6% uptime on Judgement of the Just. Thus proving that JotJ does land on the boss. Which means that the boss isn't immune to the application of the debuff. Which means that the boss isn't immune to the slowing effect.
In conclusion, slowing effects work on boss :)
Post by
Thror
Of course the slows work on bosses. Why would every single good tank pick them if they didnt.
Post by
159454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
I was under the impression that the movement slow doesn't work, but the attack speed slow definitely, definitely does.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
331845
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Porcell
To the OP: Yes it works on bosses. Movement slowing effects do not (usually) work on Raid bosses, but attack speed slow does. As mentioned check the combat logs to prove it - but specifically, check the speed between swings... not just a check to see if the debuff is there.
It shows a 48.6% uptime on Judgement of the Just.
Does anyone else see a problem with that number? Further, an uptime of only 35% on his JoW?
Le sigh.
He had a 35% uptime of JoW because they had 4 different paladins all judging Wisdom. And NO paladins judging light, which is ultimately the most fail aspect of this Festergut log. If you look at the Festergut Actor, you can see that Judgement of Wisdom had an uptime of 94%. Judgement of Light was only up for a total of 9 seconds. Judgement of the Just was only up for 48.6%, but Frost Fever had a 97.5% uptime. That means that Frost Fever was always up, and Judgement of the Just debuff only shows up as a debuff for the time between when it is applied and when it gets overwritten by the next Frost Fever. Note that Judgement of the Just doesn't overwrite the Frost Fever debuff because Frost Fever also does damage. Frost Fever does overwrite the Judgement of the Just because it's the same slow effect.
I see it on my logs all the time. I may thunderclap during a boss fight, but my debuff only stays active until the DK's Frost Fever gets reapplied and overwrites my TC. If you were to look at a fight with a Warrior and a Paladin tank, you would probably see like a 30% Thunderclap uptime and a 70% Judgement of the Just uptime, as the two debuffs would be overwriting each other.
Anyway, everything looks right with the log and the uptimes, except for the four paladins failing by not putting up Judgement of Light, ESPECIALLY on Festergut with the constant raid damage.
Post by
365547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Archibolt
Hmm, never really checked what paladin judged what. Thanks for that, i'll get it fixed ^^
Post by
331845
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Why would paladin tanks waste 2 points on Judgement of the Just if the slow doesn't work on bosses?
Of course the slows work on bosses. Why would every single good tank pick them if they didnt.
Although it's clear that it does work, these two arguments are pretty poor. EJ used to recommend the procced Seal of Command for PvP, until it suddenly clicked to someone that it sucked bigtime and Seal of Blood was reinstated. Just because everybody's jumping off a cliff doesn't mean that it's a good idea, it just means that they're following what other 'good' people are doing.
Post by
Archibolt
I'd like to believe that there is a fine line between between being a sheep and having common sense.
In this case, it is quite clear that people will spend points into Judgement of the Just to benefit from the slowing effect. The other two are questionably useful (-5/10s on HoJ) or PvP oriented (increase duration of Seal of Justice by 0.5/1s). It doesn't take an EJ to figure out that this talent is useful for the slowing effect, in a PvE tank build.
However I do completely agree that many people have the tendency to believe whatever another person say or do a bit too easily.
The most striking example would be the amount of MM hunters gemming full ArmPen way before it actually becomes more useful for them than gemming for Agility, just because X/Y from A/B has done it.
Not so long ago, an ex-guildy of mine came up to me with a "piece of advice". And it was none other than the infamous "if you gem ArmPen, you can do more DPS" thing. I did humour him and check my spreadsheet - and the results weren't too surprising, gemming ArmPen would have been a DPS loss. The funny thing was that he was a warlock and to my knowledge he didn't have a high level hunter.
All that to say is that I actually don't mind the "sheeps" - it's the people that spew misguided information, like that warlock without anything to back him up that bothers me.
Post by
Squishalot
Well no, it's common sense to theorycraft that you'll get benefit from it. The question is whether you *actually* get benefit (i.e. the boss actually swings 20% slower). Anecdotally, you would like to think so, but it is quite hard to tell in all of the frantic mess that occurs in a raid. And so, everyone gets it because everyone thinks that they're benefiting from it. And it flows on - all the mages get Torment the Weak, etc, etc.
Post by
biogoo
Debuff works => Tanks should use it
Tanks use it =/=> Debuff works
Thats common logic!
Boss swings slower <=> debuff works
So tanks should use it.
Also, if you are going to copy from someone who does exceptionaly well, be sure you also copy all of his gear and dont try to spec/gem on ICC entry level as someone who is farming the LK HC. Most of the end game specs evolved, and not only because the talents changed, but also because certain levels of gear that was available and also the mechanic of fights they were supposed to beat. As it was mentioned already, for example MM hunters didnt gem ArP for a very long time, not because no one had this idea, but because it was worse than other options. But it is a boost on certain gear level, and so they gem it now. And on better enough gear level, it would become useless again.
Post by
Liquoid
Movement Speed debuffs don't work.
Attack Speed debuffs work.
Attack Power % reduction debuffs work.
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