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What are we doing wrong?
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Post by
pezz
Two marks is not too much for a holy paladin. Three might be, unless he stops solo healing the entire fight as well. Your DPS are not doing your healers any favors, but it's absurd that three healers can't keep up with three marks. If your holy paladin finds using more than two buttons too challenging, tell him to beacon one mark and FoL spam the other one. Marks taken care of.
Even with your shockingly low DPS, three marks shouldn't be happening unless a lot of people are screwing up blood beasts. Is your prot warrior spamming cleave? Are you spamming HotR? You have a blood Death Knight as well, I assume he's spamming Heart Strike? They're near-immune to AoEs, not cleaves. That mage isn't going to be pulling a blood beast off of anyone, not with that DPS.
What needs to be worked on: Your healers are, to be frank, amazingly bad. With a good group, that fight can be solo healed, on heroic. With your group, the holy paladin and the disc priest shouldn't have had any trouble at all. If three healers can't do it, I think one of them might literally not be healing. At all. Are you sure they're all on stable internet connections?
You have tanks and melee DPS with cleaves, who need to be aware that cleaves are still perfectly capable of getting bloodbeast attention. Saurfang is going to get a lot of blood power if you aren't careful.
All of your DPS need some serious work. Take away raid buffs and the 20% buff, and you're looking at a group of people who are hitting 2k on a target dummy. That's really not acceptable. At all. It's making the fight last longer, it's making blood beasts hit more often, and making them harder to pull off overzealous melee. It's pushing you toward the enrage timer. Honestly, you're going to have to yell at and/or kick some people about basic rotation/talent spec problems if you want to kill him.
Post by
495454
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
Well that is one of your issues. It's possible to be a casual guild, but you still need to put some effort into your group composition. If you're going to be so casual that it's a free-for-all as to who gets to go, then you're clearly going to have issues.
This, I think, is our biggest issue. Whenever we have a raid there's not a set group for it, we usually have about 13 or so people sign up and then we choose from amongst that; it's not like we always have the same 10 people sign up (although we have most, I would say about 6 or so regularly), and we typically have one or two non-guildies (not PuGs though, people's friends in other raiding guilds) along because we need, say, another healer and nobody on is one. It's not my guild, and I've only recently joined so I'm trying to avoid being all "Hay guys ur doin this wrong" and ^&*!ing people off by trying to "take the reigns" per se, since the guild as a whole isn't TOO concerned with that kinda stuff. If it were MY guild, or if I was an officer/raid leader, I would be a lot more involved with the party composition in fights, and probably go so far as to investigate each core person's talents in case I found something lacking. But at this point I'm still fairly new and I don't want to go telling other guildies their spec sucks. Hell, I didn't even mention the topic of DPS output because I couldn't think of a polite way to say "That DPS was awful, what the hell are you guys doing?" without sounding like a total &*!@#$bag. Also, this is my first real raiding guild (I've only played WoW for about 5 months) so I'm still kind of grokking how to act in a guild environment. Honestly it might just be that my server's lousy reputation (it was, not sure if it still is, the lowest-ranked PVE server in the US) is well deserved, and people here just don't care about being the best they can be for progression. We only have 3, maybe 4, guilds that have even downed the LK on 10-man, and I think maybe one or two that have done it on 25 - that's it. Half the guilds here are either where we are, or wiping on Festergut/Rotface/Putricide.
Also, melee was staying only on the boss, but I'm not sure what abilities were being used. I did notice once or twice, even without using HotR, a Blood Beast came after me (I assume because DPS was a bit late in attacking it). And yes, I forgot about Righteous Defense as a taunt because I don't have it on my bar, it's bound to right click via Grid+Clique. Shame on me :)
Post by
Wildhorn
Sorry but group composition is not an issue. Their talent spending and their skill are issue thou.
Post by
Porcell
Another solution is to designate one of the blood beasts for melee to kill. This is what we used to do in the early weeks of downing Saurfang when we either had weak ranged or limited ranged in the group. The extra couple points of blood power you give the boss from tanking one of the beasts will be offset by the increased damage to the boss from the beasts going down faster.
So stack your three ranged to one side and have them nuke that one, and have your melee switch off and stun/kill the other one. Beasts should be dead within like 8 seconds, rather than having your ranged running around. If your ranged has to actually move to kite, that's a bad thing. It means lost DPS. Your ranged should be able to stand there, nuke the beast, possible do a knockback, and have it dead before the beast reaches them. If not, you need to fix something.
Post by
Lorkin
These people have PvP gear on btw?
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
These people have PvP gear on btw?
Not to my knowledge. To be honest I haven't checked their Armory since I'm trying to avoid coming off like an elite jerk and trying to tell them how to play.
Post by
Lorkin
I'm guessing you didn't have HM turned on, some people forget to turn it off after HM lootship.
The dps in your group seem to be missing something or plain not with it. It's not like they have high GS's, but with the 20% buff they should be pushing out more damage. You have 3 ranged dps and that should technically be enough. Warrior's sundering for armor pen, sham for BL, and 2 DK's for chains of ice.
Are the adds everywhere? Are the ranged not switching to adds fast enough? With your setup, you can shockwave the adds as they land, and the dk's can slow them down if needs be. You can probably switch to 2 heals vs 3, and add more dps to the fight. Our guild holy paladin can single heal this fight with beacons, so 3 seems a bit much.
It sounds like a dps issue. I dunno what to tell you since it's as close to tank and spank as it gets. The melee should basically be doing their optimal rotations/priority lists and act like they are fighting a target dummy. They don't even have to move during the encounter.
Post by
331902
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
487010
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
fuhrerschein
wait im confused... is this heroic?
if not... does everyone have weapons equipped?
are they nude?
im so confused... with the 20 percent buff the beasts die so fast we could probably get away with not slowing them and still kill them fast enough (on normal at least)
theres gotta be some issue with gear/spec/something
edit: i havent seen a mark on normal 10 man in months.. this is not to brag as i am in an average raiding guild just to provide a point of comparison... im sure some hardcore guilds do that on heroic
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
No this was normal, not heroic. I'm fairly certain it IS something with gear, spec or rotation but I'm not an expert on any class but my own (and far from it there, anyway) so I'm not sure what the problem is. All I know is we wiped like 5 times because we'd get him down to like 22% and people would start dying, either from the Mark, or.. I'm not sure what else, and he'd start to heal, and we couldn't beat his enrage timer. That's all I know, so I can't point fingers and say it was so-and-so's fault.
I've gotten some good advice. Hopefully we fare better this week, and I'll check the Damage Taken meters as well. I fear if we end up the same way, I'm going to have some choice words regarding the DPS meters, because it's totally unacceptable to be pulling <5K with a 20% damage buff if you have any idea what you're doing; now I'm far from the greatest player but I get the impression that ALL the DPS should have been at 5K+ without any buff, just with their normal self-buffs and raid buffs? So they should be at least 6K or more with a 20% buff. Is that an accurate assumption?
I've not raided much in the past and this is my first real "raiding" guild (if you can consider it that) so I have nothing to compare it against, and I don't want to go off and start calling people "baddies" you know?
Post by
Rubendesmet619
3k was possible in blues/heroic gear(patchwerk)
4k was possible for me as an armswarrior in a 10men Ulduar with Nax25 gear(Ignis)
5k was possible with the same gear in a 25-men(Ignis)
7.5k is what I did with ToC25 gear in iCC10 without any damagebonus.(Saurfang)
10.8k is what you can do with some ICC10/ICC25 gear with 5% buff(say, 5.4k gearscore)(Festergut)
Al of the above is from a freaking warrior wich admit, ain't the best DPS clas unles you're at least full Ilv 264 geared these days.
So it's pretty damn simple, your DPS sucks, nothing more to add.
Post by
Wildhorn
So it's pretty damn simple, your DPS sucks, nothing more to add.
Undergeared kill him, so DPS is not the problem. Problem is player skill. If your raid members doesnt know what is going on and/or doesnt know how to play you will fail no matter what.
Post by
Rubendesmet619
So it's pretty damn simple, your DPS sucks, nothing more to add.
Undergeared kill him, so DPS is not the problem. Problem is player skill. If your raid members doesnt know what is going on and/or doesnt know how to play you will fail no matter what.
Meh, if you can't pump out half decent DPS for your gear I can't expect them to be kiting experts either tbh.
And undergeared killed Princes by now :).
Post by
obiwaynekenobi
Hmm okay. That's what I was afraid of, because I'm not sure how to broach my concerns with the guild now, because I'll sound like a total dbag if I start saying how "that fight was totally pathetic, what the hell are you doing?". It'd be like one of those Youtube nerdrage audios with guildies screaming and cursing everyone else out.
Any suggestions on how to diplomatically approach this situation?
Post by
Kelborn
Seems to me like they need the "that fight was totally pathetic, what the hell are you doing?" approach. Because, it is. It doesn't matter what Undergeared does, your people should be performing a lot higher than they are. I don't care what dps is if the boss goes down, but if you keep wiping then it is an issue that needs to be addressed. If they can't deal with the fight mechanics, then higher dps will allow less of those to occur. Higher dps also lets them kill the damn beasts, which is what looks to be your major issue.
Post by
120504
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Cambo
My guild is lower geared than yours, and we have always one-shot it - with some people never having done it before (different members every week).
Very important for everyone to range check /range 11 and stay away from each other, and for ALL ranged dps to focus on slowing and killing the blood beasts as quickly as possible.
We usually have 2 hunters on one side, and 2 ele shaman (one is me) on the other, and the beasts are always dead within 8 seconds of spawning. Make sure your ele shaman has their Thunderstorm un-glyphed, as it comes in handy to knock a beast away.
Post by
abulurd
Whoever said people were doing 5.5kdps in Naxx, in T7.... trash doesn't count. No one can do 5.5kdps, in T7, on any boss.
In order to zerg sarth 3d your dps has to pull around 5kish. Yet, somehow he was zerged in t7 gear.......
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