This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Confused on Gemming Assassin Specc'd
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Geobuster
Ok. I'm really confused as to what to do here.
Gemming for Assassin spec, mut spec, I'm 51/18/2.
(After meeting cap on abilities, poison, and expertise, I've read the stickies and know the numbers I need to hit. Once I get good gear, I should have plenty of empty slots to gem.)
The best mut rogue on my server, ed, stacks haste. I read at EJ to stack haste, even here, I read about haste being an option,
7th Post down
.
What bothers me, being new to rogue, and only getting endgame post patch 3.3.3, is what changed with poisons. Deadly and instant, the poisons of choice for mut spec, changed to ppm. PPM has never been affected by haste rating. Increasing your haste rating will NOT give you more chances to apply poisons, since its unaffected due to becoming PPM as of 3.3.3.
Therefore, I see no reason for haste, I don't think the small speed increase in whites will make a difference, I say small cuz a 1.4 speed weapon is hardly effected by haste as much as a 3.4 speed. Your already so damn fast, so its not so much of a change, in a long fight.
I know you can't gem arm pen, since envenom is magical and not physical, and same with poisons, arm pen doesn't help.
So should I gem simply ap? To increase abilities, poisons, dp ticks, and whites?
Or perhaps spec into focused attacks, which I am not, along with my seal fate, and gem some crit or agi?
Does the the haste REALLY effect your whites that much, which leads to more energy, to make it worth it? I can see stacking haste pre-3.3.3, when dp and ip were not ppm, but ppm is unaffected.
Does the increase in whites and small energy regen from that outweigh the extra damage you would get from stacking ap gems?
In all honesty is the extra energy from the 'more attacks' from stacked haste even noticeable?
Perhaps I am missing something. Someone in game mentioned that the haste is for the 'extra chance on hit after envenoms', however, the poisons STILL being ppm, I don't see how that would be any different then regularly, unless they become not ppm for that 6 seconds, then I could understand stacking haste, for the 'burst' in poisons procs you would receive from haste. I do not know if that is STILL the case however, since its been changed to ppm.
Yeah, I've read the stickies here, and at EJ, and a coupla of other sites, but no one seems to go into detail as to WHY you use certain gems, they just suggest some**. Which I appreciate, and is nice and all, but confuses me when PPM comes into question. I just want to get the best dps out of my rogue.
I'm not saying you people with haste are wrong, and I could totally be missing something here, but since 3.3.3, maybe there is a better choice?
(**Other then the one I linked above, which is obviously outdated, since haste would NOT increase poison proc chance, which I assume is the most alluring thing about the haste, seeing as how poison is 30% of our dps.)
Thanks for you time and help.
Post by
KidB
PPM has never been affected by haste rating. Increasing your haste rating will NOT give you more chances to apply poisons, since its unaffected due to becoming PPM as of 3.3.3.
And here's where you're wrong. Haste directly contributes to more poison procs, not even mentioning that deadly is fixed at 50% proc chance, transferring it to instant once it reaches 5 stacks.
Post by
MasterOutlaw
What bothers me, being new to rogue, and only getting endgame post patch 3.3.3, is what changed with poisons. Deadly and instant, the poisons of choice for mut spec, changed to ppm. PPM has never been affected by haste rating. Increasing your haste rating will NOT give you more chances to apply poisons, since its unaffected due to becoming PPM as of 3.3.3.
Deadly Poison is still on a percentage and I believe its secondary effect (procing your other weapon's poison whenever DP refreshes itself from a 5-stack) is separate from or otherwise ignores your other poison's normal proc mechanics. That more or less throws Instant Poison's PPM mechanic out the window and allows it to proc way more often than normal. The more Haste you have, the more often you apply Deadly Poison, and the more often you wind up applying Instant Poison.
Therefore, I see no reason for haste, I don't think the small speed increase in whites will make a difference, I say small cuz a 1.4 speed weapon is hardly effected by haste as much as a 3.4 speed. Your already so damn fast, so its not so much of a change, in a long fight.
Stop eyeballing it. For starters, Haste if the kind of thing you need at least a moderate amount of before it truly starts to become effective. There's no discernible melee Haste cap (that can be reached reached via normal meansanyway, if at all) so there's no real reason not to stack it as Assassination as long as it doesn't impact your other important stats like Expertise and Hit. Of course that's also a blanket statement and whether or not you favor more Haste or AP is going to depend on your gear and personal preference. But that's mainly why you use a spreadsheet: to pick out small differences you couldn't otherwise eyeball.
And you have it backwards. Haste starts to show real benefit in longer sustained fights where the extra attacks and procs start to add up. Shorter bursty fights do better with other stats like Attack Power.
So should I gem simply ap? To increase abilities, poisons, dp ticks, and whites?
The correct answer would be to spreadsheet it and do what it suggests. To be honest there's not going to be a
wide
range of difference between AP and Haste (all other things being equal), but it does depend a lot on your buffs and gear. You can always go the middle ground with 20AP/10Haste gems, which is the suggested way to go about gemming Haste anyway.
Or perhaps spec into focused attacks, which I am not, along with my seal fate, and gem some crit or agi?
If you're PvE Assassination and you have neither Focused Attacks nor Seal Fate you're specced completely wrong. It's no wonder you aren't seeing much value in Haste.
Does the the haste REALLY effect your whites that much, which leads to more energy, to make it worth it? I can see stacking haste pre-3.3.3, when dp and ip were not ppm, but ppm is unaffected.
Does the increase in whites and small energy regen from that outweigh the extra damage you would get from stacking ap gems?
Short answer, yes (to an extent). Longer and better answer, spreadsheet it.
In all honesty is the extra energy from the 'more attacks' from stacked haste even noticeable?
You can't just eyeball it and expect to be able to tell the difference, but I promise if you run for a little bit with a ton of Haste and then remove all or most of it you'll definitely
feel
the difference. Your energy regen is going to feel sluggish by comparison. If you had Focused Attacks you'd be able to tell the difference from something like Bloodlust/Heroism alone, regardless of whether you gemmed Haste or not.
You're right in that Haste isn't the single Go-To stat for Assassination, but you're 100% wrong to dismiss it so strongly and your reasons for doing so are wrong, too. You said you "checked this place, that place, and read all kinds of material", but if you come here talking about Deadly Poison being PPM and with some kind of butchered spec that I can't wrap my head around I can't imagine you having paid too much attention to what you were looking at. I almost feel like you're trolling.
Post by
Caperon
Or perhaps spec into focused attacks, which I am not, along with my seal fate, and gem some crit or agi?
Wait, what?
Post by
Liquoid
So many wrong statements. Such an extensive post. And not a single mention of whether you
really
play a Rogue.
Post by
nossy
Ok. I'm really confused as to what to do here.
Or perhaps spec into focused attacks, which I am not, along with my seal fate, and gem some crit or agi?
.
And you read EJ?
A decrease in 0.2.0.4 sec in swing speed amounts to alot of extra white hits in a very long fight (4-5+ min). Where haste starts to lose its value is on movement extensive and target switching fights. And because of that, AP/Agility is still better than Haste.
Post by
Geobuster
No I have sealed fate, I do not have Focused attacks. That would be a lot of extra filler without sealed fate. Since I'm not quite 80, but just theroycrafting and buying stuff to prepare, I was asking. Currently I have 1 extra point in ruthlessness and 2/2 in deadly brew for lvling, as it helps mobs from getting away and grabbing others.
I didn't say I didn't have sealed fate, that's why i specifically mentioned not having focused attacks.
I do play a rogue, and I'm not trolling.
And yes I read ej, ej is pretty much lacking in every department except dk's. Go to place for dk's, not so much for the other classes. Plus ej is set for a more further informed player and doesn't go the distance to explain the small stuff.
I also didn't dismiss it, its why I'm posting here asking, that's not dismissing, I'm opening it to discussion so I may find the error of my ways.
I read somewhere that dp and ip went to ppm, and regardless of what makes sense, and what you would think, ppm has never been effected by haste rating, so no, it really would not make a difference, if dp and ip are in fact, ppm. I know they still list percentages, but that may have not been updated in the display ingame, since it was so recently "changed".
I also wasn't comparing the swing time in a long fight, but the difference from a huge damage per swing weapons, as opposed to our small damage per swing weapons, the speed increase for us is not as beneficial as it would be to a warrior or dk, damage wise. Not saying they should gem that, cuz they should not, but the dps boost would be noticeable.
Regardless thanks for the information MasterOutlaw, the other posts were pretty much useless, as one can come to expect from wowhead.
And yes, I am a rogue.
-Ðrug
-Emerald Dream RPPVP Server
Post by
KidB
The fact instant was put on PPM and deadly was NOT, and that deadly has had an additional functionality added to it was something that could have been easily checked with a cursory glance at the poison's tooltips, even here on wowhead. Going from there, applying simple logic would reveal why haste is so valued by more knowledgeable rogues than yourself.
Furthermore, regardless of what you might think, the game actually checks unhasted weapon speeds to determine poison proc percentages, which means that haste
will
increase the number of poison procs during a certain period of time.
Post by
nossy
No I have sealed fate, I do not have Focused attacks. That would be a lot of extra filler without sealed fate. Since I'm not quite 80, but just theroycrafting and buying stuff to prepare, I was asking. Currently I have 1 extra point in ruthlessness and 2/2 in deadly brew for lvling, as it helps mobs from getting away and grabbing others.
I didn't say I didn't have sealed fate, that's why i specifically mentioned not having focused attacks.
I do play a rogue, and I'm not trolling.
And yes I read ej, ej is pretty much lacking in every department except dk's. Go to place for dk's, not so much for the other classes. Plus ej is set for a more further informed player and doesn't go the distance to explain the small stuff.
I also didn't dismiss it, its why I'm posting here asking, that's not dismissing, I'm opening it to discussion so I may find the error of my ways.
I read somewhere that dp and ip went to ppm, and regardless of what makes sense, and what you would think, ppm has never been effected by haste rating, so no, it really would not make a difference, if dp and ip are in fact, ppm. I know they still list percentages, but that may have not been updated in the display ingame, since it was so recently "changed".
I also wasn't comparing the swing time in a long fight, but the difference from a huge damage per swing weapons, as opposed to our small damage per swing weapons, the speed increase for us is not as beneficial as it would be to a warrior or dk, damage wise. Not saying they should gem that, cuz they should not, but the dps boost would be noticeable.
Regardless thanks for the information MasterOutlaw, the other posts were pretty much useless, as one can come to expect from wowhead.
And yes, I am a rogue.
-Ðrug
-Emerald Dream RPPVP Server
Failed again. It's weapon DPS that matters. It's pretty simple.
Unsharpened Ice Razor
to
Blood Weeper
will give you the same DPS for melee. They both have the same average weapon DPS.
Where the weapon dmg matters is your specials like Mutilate. Mutilate will hit harder with Weeper than Razor. But you see, the way poison works now, and with a 51/18/2 spec (no opportunity), mutilate dmg falls to 4th place after melee, instant poison, and Envenom.
you said so yourself here:
Therefore, I see no reason for haste, I don't think the small speed increase in whites will make a difference, I say small cuz a 1.4 speed weapon is hardly effected by haste as much as a 3.4 speed. Your already so damn fast, so its not so much of a change, in a long fight.
The reason why Haste is lower on stat priority for DKs/Warrior (2hander) is because they dont have proc abilities that accounts for the top 3 dmg like rogues and enh shammies (windfury, maelstrom weapon). And plus, if you DW, haste is applied to BOTH weapons. (For Frost DWing, haste becomes a better stat).
And yes Focused Attack is a requirement.
Post by
Geobuster
The fact instant was put on PPM and deadly was NOT, and that deadly has had an additional functionality added to it was something that could have been easily checked with a cursory glance at the poison's tooltips, even here on wowhead.
Going from there, applying simple logic would reveal why haste is so valued by more knowledgeable rogues than yourself.
Furthermore, regardless of what you might think, the game actually checks unhasted weapon speeds to determine poison proc percentages, which means that haste
will
increase the number of poison procs during a certain period of time.
Exactly Why I'm here asking the question. I'm a new rogue, not knowledgeable. Thanks for pointing out the obvious, that there are smarter rogues then I, I would certainly hope so, seeing as how I'm not endgame yet. You are a champion of message board trolling sir. I applaud you.
Post by
466571
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
434699
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Geobuster
Focused attacks is useless pre-raiding while always having the damned mobs slowed is 100% amazing. The definition of a nitpicking git would be you seeing as you come in here and have to complain about something, and actually put 0% help towards the topic at hand. Troll win.
Post by
Caperon
Focused attacks is useless pre-raiding while always having the damned mobs slowed is 100% amazing. The definition of a nitpicking git would be you seeing as you come in here and have to complain about something, and actually put 0% help towards the topic at hand. Troll win.
Actually he did give the link to idps which will eventually be your shrine where you pray to your god.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
434699
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
434699
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.