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Deathknight vs warrior as tank
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Post by
skumbananer
Probably a topic better suited in official forums, but since im banned (permanently) from those, id thought i qq here.
I have both a frost dk and a arms warrior with frost tank and protection offspeccs, and i certainly wouldnt want to see my warrior tanking get nerfed. But as a tank, fact is, warrior is vastly superior to dk.
Lets start with a typical scenario. Tanking a 5man heroic, trying to corner pull a group of trash, dps does like dps always do and starts aoeing before pack reaches tank behind said corner, trash runs everywhere, a dps runs away in opposite direction, another dps thinks we are going to slow and pulls a second pack, while the healer tries spamhealing everyone and gets healing aggro.
Now as a warrior, these types of scenarios pose no challenge at all, just fast reactions. taunt, retalliation, mocking blow intercepting, intervene, charge, a o ^&*! lets taunt everything button, a stun, aoe stun, 2 silences, nearly infinite resources to spam every gcd, glyphed cleaves on every autoswing a warrior, even with low skill, just fast reactions can manage to round up all mobs, making a heroic 5man pug a almost fool proof for the dpsers, who can act and do whatever they please cause aslong as the healer can keep the tank up, and the tank can tab and spam through targets fast enough there are no limit to just how stupid your dpsers can be.
Now as a dk, im very limited to my death and decay...mobs not in my area of dnd? No aggro. A single taunt, a single silence, a single "charge"-like ability in form of death grip is all i have. I also have extremely limited resources, i cant tab around strong strikes, i only have a single target attack "on next swing", my aoe moves except for a weak bloodboil costs much of my runes (dnd, howling blast) and are on long cds. Also my threat gets really limited if i wanna protect myself, as those skills also cost resources.
With a party full of morons, i cant fulfill my role as tank when im on dk. Now my aoe threat is good if every mob is close, but i have so much fewer tools to save a situation than a warrior, when mobs run everywhere i know we are gonna wipe on my dk, but on my warr those scenarios are just fun.
I need more skills as a dk to be able to deal with typical dpsers, else i feel like i get excluded from tanking 5man pugs as a dk.
Post by
534868
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheJohan
Your perfectly right. You need more skill.
Oh you said skill
s
!
Well, i'd say what you are talking about are extreme situations, and not really something you should have to handle on a daily basis. IF you actually have to deal with stuff like that, just let the freakin dps die, put DnD around the healer and move there. Sure it takes some time to kill stuff without 3 dps, but its not your fault, and its perfectly possible to do (almost) anything without an enragetimer with a tank and a healer.
Also, nowadays, icy touch is almost a taunt.
Post by
xaratherus
I find DK tanking more challenging than my Paladin, but it's still not as difficult as you paint it to be - or at least I haven't found it to be so*.
I'll drop Death and Decay on the spot on which I want to tank, and meet the mobs in the middle. Strangulate is a good ranged silence, but if needs be I have Death Grip - and if that's on cooldown, I'll run to the mob, Mind Freeze, and draw them back.
Once I have my diseases up I spread them to all targets with Pestilence and drop a Blood Boil; if I still need more aggro, I'll pop Empower Rune Weapon, refresh all my runes, and then Howling Blast.
It's more work than on my Paladin, but I also like the fact that it's a more active tanking style.
*Then again, I also tell DPS that they should not be ahead of me at any time, and that if they pull before I'm ready I
will
let them die before I pick up the mobs.
Post by
Montyburns
Probably a topic better suited in official forums, but since im banned (permanently) from those.
Honestly i cant think of a better way to build credability.
How have you been excluded from 5 man pugs with the dungeon finder tool?
Post by
dslg604t
Probably a topic better suited in official forums, but since im banned (permanently) from those.
Honestly i cant think of a better way to build credability.
How have you been excluded from 5 man pugs with the dungeon finder tool?
Ikr, I was just about to say that.
Also, what do you mean by "nearly infinite resources to spam every gcd" warriors have rage, which is quite limited if the group is as idiotic as you make them out to be.
Post by
118425
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
chowderman
it really depends on the pack of trash, casters need special attention, melee you can just drop a DnD, IT, PS, Pestilence, Blood Tap a Blood Boil, if it is an intense fight, Empower Rune Weapon and refresh to keep going and generating threat, otherwise rune dump until your runes come back up.
A mixed group, I will Deathchill a Howling Blast (glyphed for FF), the crit+the FF dot is good for threat gen, PS, Pestilence, Blood Boil, with another Blood Tap+Blood Boil. Its a good and clean first rotation, you can wait or Empower Rune Weapon to DnD, or you can continue the rotation depending on the intensity of the mobs.
A good example of using both scenario's together would be VH, when you have to run hard from the right side to the let side portal infront of where Zuramat is. If you dont get there fast enough the mobs split and I can be hell to bring them together for tanking. DnD, the melee guys, then Deathchill HB the the casters, it will buy you time to tank them into the DnD, and with a pestilence and Blood Boils to keep them all on you.
That single encounter alone is enough to test if one playing a DK tank can adequately control their threat. Albeit it is true some very enthusiastic DPS may pull threat on scattered mobs...but they should be watching themselves.
My Warrior is still in training, keep switching to Fury for leveling, but that encounter there are a few methods to the control, thunderclap, cleave the melee, with a charge stun to the caster, it should give you enough threat to bring them together for dps to handle. It is all how you swing it. As me having several tanks, I spend a lot of time on the "Perfect Pull" that makes the difference of ones tanking ability almost entirely.
A DK has plenty options for threat...although it seems not many seem to spec them...at least Frosties like me anyway. Deathchill, Hungering Cold, for situations like above as well as say...the tunnel in Pit, start collecting the trash work your way to the group right after the midpoint and a Hungering Cold freeze them all in place, gives the entire party time to run to the end get their achievement and be ready to fight the entire lot, that is where the deathchilled Howling Blast comes from in order to help keep threat combined with a DnD and those blood boils. My main tank is a paladin so when I started the DK, it honestly took a lot of practice, if you plan to tank, start tanking ramps with a patient and competent group while you are leveling when you have less tools, you will learn to be at least viable when you get to level 80.
Post by
GravenTerenas
I don't play a tank myself but I do heal a fair bit in 5-mans. Has anyone else noticed that, in general, DKs seem to need the most healing of all the tank classes?
I have no idea if this is caused by gear or skill disparity, but that seems unlikely to me. I always seem to be asking my DK tanks if they are def capped, which understandably offends them somewhat, but I don't know what else to think. I'd chalk it up to them not having shields, but surely things should be balanced around that anyway (and of course bears seem to tank just fine without shields).
This is not an attempt to troll. I'm sure some people will be offended and tell me I'm wrong, but it's a genuine observation I've made over several months of healing random 5-mans. Do DK's really take more damage, or have I just been somewhat unlucky with my groups?
Post by
xaratherus
i do find that my DK takes more damage. Generally speaking, my DK will have 15-20% less avoidance/mitigation than Warriors or Paladins, simply because I do not have a shield with which to block.
Post by
chowderman
Considering I have several tanks, Bears and DKs take the most damage. Less avoidance and mitigation stats. Makes for more damage and then more healing, hence larger health pools. It is part of class design.
The loss of shield is made up by more armour health, but block damage is really negligible per hit, but it adds up in a 5 minute boss fight.
I guess the difference i have noticed, Bears have a lot of passive avoidance and mitigation, so they can spend more effort on threat. DK's have a spell they should be using to increase their defenses. That also affects the damage DK tanks take.
Post by
322464
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zokudu
Death Knights should not take more damage over the course of a fight if they understand cooldown usage. Death Knights are given a good amount of quality cooldowns on low timers. For Frost its IBF, UA, Blood Tap if you have 4p T10.
In general most boss fights in ICC really work well with these mechanics. Taunt rotations on saurfang deathwhisper and the LK himself be sure to pop one of those 3 CDs every time you grab the boss. The issue is DKs are forced to use their CDs pro-actively rather then reactively.
Block is a negligible stat and DKs make it out that thats why their having issues. Block scaled like garbage with incoming damage and health pools in WotLK thats why Druids are far and away the best tanks of the expansion. Block used to be to stop crushing blows and Druids were built to eat the crushing blows to the face instead of stopping them as warriors and paladins were hence the larger health pools. With the removal of crushing blows block is just a very weak amount of mitigation over the course of a fight but they didn't adjust the mechanic.
The problem lies in that DKs were built around the no crushing blow mechanics. We are built with on average the same health pools as warriors and paladins and similar avoidance. Over the course of a fight however a DK who does not use his cooldowns will take more damage then a warrior or paladin. But DKs have the advantage in that they can choose when to mitigate some damage while with warriors and paladins its random.
A frost tank has: UBA blocks ~10% damage per hit for 20 seconds. 4p T10 is 12% damage reduction for 10 seconds. IBF should be between 40-50% reduction for 18 seconds. These abilities are on a 1 minute 1 minute and 2 minute timer respectively. Thats every other pull in an average heroic. Poping UBA 13-20 times a run is a large portion of damage that most DKs don't do.
DK tanks are fine people just don't know how to play them.
Post by
skumbananer
oh, how completely unexpected "get more skill" how come i can tank for complete tards with ease on my warrior, and to tank for tards is almost impossible on my dk?
I wont claim that i am super skilled or anything, but i am definitively not the worst tank out there, and yes i have tanked since vanilla on warrior, but still, theres a vast difference on how the classes function when dpsers makes tanking hard.
If someone had the time over, and got an equally geared warrior and a dk, tanked 100 heroics with each, i would bet that 90% or more of the runs as a warrior tank would go smooth, and maybe 70% at the most with the dk. i am probably near those numbers on both classes, and warrior tank>dk tank.
What is a dk tanks niche? all other tank classes have their special niche.
paladins: Raid MTs, Aoe trash tanks
druids: Raid OTs, high dps tanks
warriors: Excels at tanking 5man content with 2 or more tards in the group.
dks: hmmm beyond tanking Sartharion with drakes up as blood way back in early wotlk...they dont excel at anything.
Yes paladins and druids>warriors (pal>druid>warr>dk) in a raiding environment, but warriors>all in heroic 5mans. thats not a fair trade-off, since every tank can tank 5man heroics, but atleast the warrior got the edge in something. Dks on the other hand, are the worst pick for anything.
Ok that might be borderline trolling, but i just felt the urge to whine somewhere
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zokudu
Any tank can fulfill any spot in a raid environment. I OT my guilds ICC raids as a DK and do so well. The issue is theres a distinct lack of DK tanks in raid situations. I believe in a recent gleaning of data from world of logs there were something like 28 actively raiding DKs who uploaded data to the site.
DKs are easily the best OTs in my opinion. Our AoE capability in a frost build is phenomenal for fights like the Lich King. IT is perfectly suited for the Blood Prince Council Keleseth tank and Rotface Ooze tank. Their survivability in their Blood tank specs is equivalent to a warrior or paladin on any major tank switching fight like Saurfang or Sindragosa P3.
Not to mention you list of capabilities is very messed up. If we were to rank tank capabilities in ICC druid would win out for MT easily. Paladin a close second followed by warrior then DK in my opinion. For OT I feel DKs perform the best when played correctly. They do require 2 tank specs to perform to the best of their abilities however. The druid and paladin I would say would be equal with warrior bringing up the rear because of a lack of low cooldown ranged ability.
For 5 mans in modern 5 mans Paladin and Druid again tied with phenomenal AoE capability and survivability. The I would say DK. Then Warrior just because they need a lot of preplanning to do their AoE threat well.
But honestly its all a wash anyway any of the 4 tanks can effectively do any of the jobs listed just play what you like and play it well and you'll be fine. Maybe try learning how to play a DK before complaining about it?
Post by
444854
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
573934
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TheJohan
paladins: Raid MTs, Aoe trash tanks
druids: Raid OTs, high dps tanks
warriors: Excels at tanking 5man content with 2 or more tards in the group.
dks: hmmm beyond tanking Sartharion with drakes up as blood way back in early wotlk...they dont excel at anything.
Hehehehehe.. Thats funny. I smile widely as i type this. Really.
Who the hell cares if you can't save the day with your dk as easy as you do it with a warrior? Retards will be retards will be retards, no matter how you turn it. You can't base a tanks utility/viability on something that
should not happen
(ie. morons AoEing things that you havent even started moving towards, and singletarget-bursting X when you are concentrating on skull), and even so...
I don't have much experience with dk's, but i am currently moving one slowly through the LFD-tool, as a tank. And ive encountrered some problems, since you don't get all your taunts untill higher levels than 58 - even so, i just pushed through with whatever tools given to me, single target dpsing mobs that i lost aggro on. And now that they increased the threat on icy touch beyond the stars, its... easy. Very easy. I don't really see the problem that you present.
Post by
Drefanator
1. A warrior has a hard time getting aggro on things when he's not getting hit.
2, If you can't use all of your plethora of abilities to get the aoe aggro then something is wrong.
3. Do what i do if someone doesn't allow me to get aggro on LoS pulls, go sit in a corner and eat some food and watch as the dps and heals try and handle the pull. Gets the point across very quickly.
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