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Arizona's new illegal immigration bill: good or bad?
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Post by
454052
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
sutasafaia
I still love the protests with people waving around signs like "illegal immigrant rights."
I'm sorry, what part of
illegal
do they not understand? Last time I checked breaking the law didn't earn you cookies and a pat on the back.
Post by
182246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
I still love the protests with people waving around signs like "illegal immigrant rights."
I'm sorry, what part of
illegal
do they not understand? Last time I checked breaking the law didn't earn you cookies and a pat on the back.
I don't know, think about it. Racial profiling, anybody whose immigrated has to carry around a green card 24/7. I hate to call Hitler card, but rings slightly reminiscent of "Papers Please" and "X Israel/Sarah Y" on passports.
Post by
sutasafaia
I still love the protests with people waving around signs like "illegal immigrant rights."
I'm sorry, what part of
illegal
do they not understand? Last time I checked breaking the law didn't earn you cookies and a pat on the back.
I don't know, think about it. Racial profiling, anybody whose immigrated has to carry around a green card 24/7. I hate to call Hitler card, but rings slightly reminiscent of "Papers Please" and "X Israel/Sarah Y" on passports.
Hitler card might be a little overboard since I doubt we will stick them in camps and kill them. However, I'm all for exporting every last illegal in this country. Might be nice to see our tax dollars doing some good for a change.
Post by
Orranis
I still love the protests with people waving around signs like "illegal immigrant rights."
I'm sorry, what part of
illegal
do they not understand? Last time I checked breaking the law didn't earn you cookies and a pat on the back.
I don't know, think about it. Racial profiling, anybody whose immigrated has to carry around a green card 24/7. I hate to call Hitler card, but rings slightly reminiscent of "Papers Please" and "X Israel/Sarah Y" on passports.
Hitler card might be a little overboard since I doubt we will stick them in camps and kill them. However, I'm all for exporting every last illegal in this country. Might be nice to see our tax dollars doing some good for a change.
So you don't mind giving money for the good of the people on a whole, as long as they're American people? Plenty Native-Americans would love to help you pack, as you seem to forget that this 'great land of liberty' was built on the tears and ruins of another people.
This is why I dislike patriotism.
Post by
182246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
106545
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
sutasafaia
Actually, as much fun as a debate on things like this can be, I think I'm just going to withdraw on this one. Internet forums are hardly the place for a genuine discussion. Tends to turn way to hostile way to fast and then it ends up coming down to who calls who a Nazi first.
Post by
Orranis
I still love the protests with people waving around signs like "illegal immigrant rights."
I'm sorry, what part of
illegal
do they not understand? Last time I checked breaking the law didn't earn you cookies and a pat on the back.
I don't know, think about it. Racial profiling, anybody whose immigrated has to carry around a green card 24/7. I hate to call Hitler card, but rings slightly reminiscent of "Papers Please" and "X Israel/Sarah Y" on passports.
Hitler card might be a little overboard since I doubt we will stick them in camps and kill them. However, I'm all for exporting every last illegal in this country. Might be nice to see our tax dollars doing some good for a change.
So you don't mind giving money for the good of the people on a whole, as long as they're American people? Plenty Native-Americans would love to help you pack, as you seem to forget that this 'great land of liberty' was built on the tears and ruins of another people.
This is why I dislike patriotism.
This has nothing to do with patriotism. This has to do with people sucking up resources that aren't theirs to begin with. I couldn't care less if they want to come over and pick fruit for us, as long as they get their cards and do it legally.
What is this concept of ownership? Is it
your
public school? Is it
your
government? Is it
your
library? What makes it any less theirs than yours? Because they we 'lazy' enough not to dot some is and cross some ts on a form? Because it's that easy? Is this that they don't pay taxes? If only people who pay X amount of money are allowed into a public school, what makes it any different from a private school?
Illegal is still the key word here. We do let criminals hang out and have tea parties, we arrest them for doing something illegal. The fact that people are demanding rights for illegal immigrants is just as silly an idea as standing outside of a federal prison and demanding rights for people on death row.
I am a stanch advocate of giving people on death row the right to be organ donors. I don't care what's written on what piece of paper, telling someone that there children can't have an education because they were born across the boarder is wrong.
Post by
sutasafaia
I still love the protests with people waving around signs like "illegal immigrant rights."
I'm sorry, what part of
illegal
do they not understand? Last time I checked breaking the law didn't earn you cookies and a pat on the back.
I don't know, think about it. Racial profiling, anybody whose immigrated has to carry around a green card 24/7. I hate to call Hitler card, but rings slightly reminiscent of "Papers Please" and "X Israel/Sarah Y" on passports.
Hitler card might be a little overboard since I doubt we will stick them in camps and kill them. However, I'm all for exporting every last illegal in this country. Might be nice to see our tax dollars doing some good for a change.
So you don't mind giving money for the good of the people on a whole, as long as they're American people? Plenty Native-Americans would love to help you pack, as you seem to forget that this 'great land of liberty' was built on the tears and ruins of another people.
This is why I dislike patriotism.
This has nothing to do with patriotism. This has to do with people sucking up resources that aren't theirs to begin with. I couldn't care less if they want to come over and pick fruit for us, as long as they get their cards and do it legally.
What is this concept of ownership? Is it
your
public school? Is it
your
government? Is it
your
library? What makes it any less theirs than yours? Because they we 'lazy' enough not to dot some is and cross some ts on a form? Because it's that easy? Is this that they don't pay taxes? If only people who pay X amount of money are allowed into a public school, what makes it any different from a private school?
Illegal is still the key word here. We do let criminals hang out and have tea parties, we arrest them for doing something illegal. The fact that people are demanding rights for illegal immigrants is just as silly an idea as standing outside of a federal prison and demanding rights for people on death row.
I am a stanch advocate of giving people on death row the right to be organ donors. I don't care what's written on what piece of paper, telling someone that there children can't have an education because they were born across the boarder is wrong.
Actually, yes. Them not dotting their 'i's and crossing their 't's is precisely what makes them illegal. Fact is that getting your card is what makes you legal, and by skipping the process you are illegal. You may think it's just meaningless paperwork but that's how this nation works. You don't do the paperwork you don't stay. The fact they do not pay taxes does in fact mean they are mooching off the people of America. We pay taxes in order to support said schools, library, and government. They do not. They are using resources they have not paid for, and hence are doing something illegal.
BUT, as I edited in my previous post, I am not going to continue this debate. The internet is no place to have any real debate since it tends to devolve into hostility very quickly. The whole a anonymity and all, it's just a matter of time before Nazi gets thrown around. We will not see eye to eye, so why rip our hair out trying? Agree to disagree so to speak.
Post by
Orranis
I still love the protests with people waving around signs like "illegal immigrant rights."
I'm sorry, what part of
illegal
do they not understand? Last time I checked breaking the law didn't earn you cookies and a pat on the back.
I don't know, think about it. Racial profiling, anybody whose immigrated has to carry around a green card 24/7. I hate to call Hitler card, but rings slightly reminiscent of "Papers Please" and "X Israel/Sarah Y" on passports.
Hitler card might be a little overboard since I doubt we will stick them in camps and kill them. However, I'm all for exporting every last illegal in this country. Might be nice to see our tax dollars doing some good for a change.
So you don't mind giving money for the good of the people on a whole, as long as they're American people? Plenty Native-Americans would love to help you pack, as you seem to forget that this 'great land of liberty' was built on the tears and ruins of another people.
This is why I dislike patriotism.
This has nothing to do with patriotism. This has to do with people sucking up resources that aren't theirs to begin with. I couldn't care less if they want to come over and pick fruit for us, as long as they get their cards and do it legally.
What is this concept of ownership? Is it
your
public school? Is it
your
government? Is it
your
library? What makes it any less theirs than yours? Because they we 'lazy' enough not to dot some is and cross some ts on a form? Because it's that easy? Is this that they don't pay taxes? If only people who pay X amount of money are allowed into a public school, what makes it any different from a private school?
Illegal is still the key word here. We do let criminals hang out and have tea parties, we arrest them for doing something illegal. The fact that people are demanding rights for illegal immigrants is just as silly an idea as standing outside of a federal prison and demanding rights for people on death row.
I am a stanch advocate of giving people on death row the right to be organ donors. I don't care what's written on what piece of paper, telling someone that there children can't have an education because they were born across the boarder is wrong.
Actually, yes. Them not dotting their 'i's and crossing their 't's is precisely what makes them illegal. Fact is that getting your card is what makes you legal, and by skipping the process you are illegal.I really dislike this idea of set legality. Have you never heard of an amendment? Your failing to look at the problem of why they cannot put down the i's dot.
You may think it's just meaningless paperwork but that's how this nation works.
Of course, but that doesn't mean it can't be changed. It's just that, paperwork. It's not impossible for us to say, "Hey, the times they are a changin', and do something about it." You don't do the paperwork you don't stay. The fact they do not pay taxes does in fact mean they are mooching off the people of America. We pay taxes in order to support said schools, library, and government. They do not. They are using resources they have not paid for, and hence are doing something illegal.
You're missing the whole point of taxes proper. It's to provide money for nonprofit organizations for the benefit of society. If taxes takes money from the rich to give resources to the rich, why don't we simply stick a monthly fee on libraries and be done with it? Perhaps with educated children, these people will one day get jobs and have enough money to pay taxes?
BUT, as I edited in my previous post, I am not going to continue this debate. The internet is no place to have any real debate since it tends to devolve into hostility very quickly. The whole a anonymity and all, it's just a matter of time before Nazi gets thrown around. We will not see eye to eye, so why rip our hair out trying? Agree to disagree so to speak.
I'm certain I shall not dissolve into this, so it falls for me to trust you to do the same. I see no reason not to, as long as we both hold up our ends of the bargain.
Post by
374287
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
sutasafaia
As long as your willing to avoid devolving into insults, I'm willing to give this a try. I wasn't accusing you specifically of doing it, just saying it tends to be the natural course on most forums :P
Anyway, as you say, yes there can be amendments. If something like that were to occur I would be all for it. You have to understand I have nothing against illegal immigrants as people, I have something against them being here illegally. I would never wish suffering on any human being, however, if they want to be here I expect them to follow every law that any citizen would have to follow. There are rules to join this nation and they should follow them and not be trying to circumvent them.
The fact that they see a reason to circumvent them tells me that some change might be in order, however (again), this is something they should not be fighting for while already being in the nation breaking the laws in the first place.
As far as taxes go, I agree but only to a point. If they want to give their children proper education they can do it legally. They can make a petition to have the US build a school for them in their own country or they can do the papers and tests to become a citizen of this country.
I don't actually think our opinions on illegals are actually all that different, I think we are mostly disagreeing on the whole middle man process. To me, you seem to think that they should have ways to skip it and use our system for their benefit so that they can in turn benefit us with said taxes. I on the other hand think they should follow the rules and then proceed to use our system for benefit.
I have nothing against special case or temporary status, I know there are some of them out there that are granted even today. I just have a very strong bias against people who decide to break the law to gain benefit, no matter the case. There are very, very few cases of just cause when it comes to breaking the law for the greater good and sneaking into the country isn't one of them in my book.
You seem to be on the same page as me finfangfool, although I think you may have stated the case a little better than I did :)
Post by
278900
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Post by
135207
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
182246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
This is why I support an automatic Resident Alien permit for any non-citizen child who graduates an American high school with fluency in English and at least a B in the mandatory Civics course. And should they also satisfy the Moral Character guidelines (found
here
under section E), they can raise their right hand and swear into their citizenship then and there.
A B? That's kind of high, considering that many American kids are getting congratulated on C's.
For those that cross as adults? You were fool enough to get caught, so take the punishment for violating the laws of this country just like anyone else that's fool enough to get caught.
So you're saying that it's moral for me to kill if I don't get caught? The problem is why were trying to catch them in the first place. The entirety of section B you linked would be, for nearly all people who need to immigrate illegally, entirely impossible.
Post by
229791
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
What is your logical basis for this absoulutist statement? Immigration policy in the U.S. tends to mirror ethnic tensions more closely than economic need. Mass immigration can be extremely valuable for a country, the U.S. wouldn't have had the labor force without large amounts of immigrants throughout the Industrial Revolution. Back then about 2% of all incoming legal immigrants were denied, usually for criminal histories or contagious diseases. The figures are much, much tighter now. About 12% of legal immigrants applying for citizenship are denied currently. The process of becoming a citizen is extraordinarily complex and expensive.Sorry to interrupt but I think if more immigration really were good for America, then there wouldn't be any "illegal" immigrants at all. And the borders would be thoroughly open for everybody.
Which means you obviously have very little understanding of law.
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