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@ Feminism
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Post by
Patty
I wish I could go. :(
Edit; also, on request: women respect themselves by wearing what makes them feel comfortable, and not by wearing what other people think is appropriate for them to wear, or to wear to avoid rape. That is women being respectful of themselves. Not some vague idea of "appropriateness" defined by a man.
1) Though your disregard for modesty may seem trendy now, it can't end well for future generations to be so encouraged to sexualize themselves. I feel this is less a push for feminism, and simply a manifestation of a hatred for morality.
2) THIS DOESN'T MATTER. You are discussing a first world problem, in a thread about people getting mutilated, burned by acid, drowned, etc. You make the cause look foolish.
1) It's not an entire disregard for modesty at all. I just think it's bull$%^& that there are double standards imposed on women because men have hyper-sexualised them, and by normalising the sexualised body parts, the sexualisation can be diminished. I mean, did
anyone
bother to read my post from this morning?
2) /facepalm
I thought this had been established
about ten pages ago.
Post by
MyTie
1) It's not an entire disregard for modesty at all. I just think it's bull$%^& that there are double standards imposed on women because men have hyper-sexualised them, and by normalising the sexualised body parts, the sexualisation can be diminished. I mean, did
anyone
bother to read my post from this morning?
This kind of "equality through embracing the opposite" extremism doesn't help create normalization. Because some insist that women should be forced to wear something specific, doesn't follow that women
should
wear anything at all. There is a happy medium here, where women are free to wear what they want, but society encourages modesty. Right now, we have neither.
I thought this had been established
about ten pages ago.
I disagree with both of these as laws. Sure, we don't need to ignore everything that isn't the most important topic, and there are still issues in the world, but those two facts don't immediately follow that we should be whining about... what exactly... women aren't allowed to walk around without a top on? Again, a happy medium should be found. There is no trophy for going to the most extreme. As you can see, I'm not jumping up and down for morality at all costs.
Post by
Patty
Again, as said in the FAQ on x versus y, lots of issues are interconnected. Regulating women's bodies is what sexualises parts of their bodies demanded not to be shown on account of being proper and, ah, modesty. This connects with objectification and, if you look far enough, to rape culture. Which has all been established. I mean, at this point - it seems like all you're doing is going over ground that has already been covered with a more anti-feminist stance for the sake of it. So yeah, I really don't have time for that. The links are there. xoxo
Post by
Skreeran
I do agree that women's right are at an all time high, and there's not as much of a serious need for the outrage and outcry that there used to be. But at the same time, it's still not equal, and I don't think it's right to just say "close enough" and move on.
Edit: And just from my first world point of view, I would be a lot happier to see more realistic female protagonists in video games and movies.
Post by
MyTie
Again, as said in the FAQ on x versus y, lots of issues are interconnected. Regulating women's bodies is what sexualises parts of their bodies demanded not to be shown on account of being proper and, ah, modesty. This connects with objectification and, if you look far enough, to rape culture. Which has all been established. I mean, at this point - it seems like all you're doing is going over ground that has already been covered with a more anti-feminist stance for the sake of it. So yeah, I really don't have time for that. The links are there. xoxo
Again, as said in many FAQ of web pages, there are more effective ways to focus our efforts. Walking around naked is what sexualizes parts of women's bodies, and is what turns people off of feminism. This sexualizion and indecency, if you look far enough, connects to rape culture. That has been established. I mean, at this point - it seems like all you're doing is going over ground that has already been covered with a more anti-feminist stance for the sake of it. So yeah, I really don't have time for that. The links are there. Sarcastic hugs and kisses.
Patty, just because you have some internet sites that agree with you don't mean that you are right.
Now, I want you to break some new ground. I want you to explain to me, in a careful and detailed manner, how society encouraging women to dress modestly, promotes rape culture. Keep in mind, I'm not going to go read a Removed blog, so don't bother linking their FAQ.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##That is not an appropriate term to use, especially in thread about a topic which does encompass genocide that is a real and current fact in some parts of the world.
Post by
Patty
Nah, you almost had me there, but I think your "feminazi" comment sealed it for me, and made it clear you can't even understand basic concepts of feminism, in which case I don't think I can deconstruct my points in such a way you will understand. So, I'm not going to entertain you any longer because I really don't have the patience for you. Bon voyage.
Post by
MyTie
made it clear you can't even understand basic concepts of feminism
What you consider to be feminism, I don't, I really don't understand. I want to encourage women to be modest, really everyone to be modest. I dislike pride. I really want to understand how that encourages rape. That conclusion makes no sense to me. It reeks of debate intimidation through a false dichotomy. For pages now, I've been defending against accusations that I promote rape, because I want women to dress modestly. I haven't ONCE accused you of thinking women are just sexual objects, because you think they should dress like that, and therefore, make them rape targets. That kind of argument isn't honest, unless there is some kind of crazy logic behind it that has eluded me for pages.
So, back up your assertion, or stop asserting it. How does encouraging women to dress more modestly, encourage people to rape women. Explain that.
Post by
Adamsm
Because a rape has nothing at all to do with the clothes the victim is wearing...as has been said multiple times. A rapist will still hit a woman whether she is in a burka or a mini skirt.
Post by
MyTie
Adamsm-forcing someone to wear a specific type of clothing
Let's stop right here. I want you to either admit this is a strawman, or show where I have ever said this. You will not be addressed in this debate until you back up and correct this. You do this way to often, and although the mods won't let me force you to address your strawmen in every thread, I can make you address the strawmen you make in those particular threads. So, either rescind this, or you and I are done talking about it.
Post by
Magician22773
Because a rape has nothing at all to do with the clothes the victim is wearing...as has been said multiple times. A rapist will still hit a woman whether she is in a burka or a mini skirt.
A
study
done in 1980-1981 evaluated 114 convicted rapists in Virginia prisons. Of the 114, 47 of the men admitted to the rape, while 77 denied either all or partial guilt.
Evoking the stereotype that women provoke rape by the way they dress,
a description of the victim as seductively attired appeared in the accounts of 22 percent of deniers and 17 percent of admitters.
Typically, these descriptions were used to substantiate their claims about the victim's reputation. Some men went to extremes to paint a tarnished picture of the Victim, describing her as dressed in tight black clothes and without a bra; in one case, the victim was portrayed as sexually provocative in dress and carriage.
What I find interesting is that nearly an equal percentage of deniers and admitters said that the victims attire played a role in the attack. This seems to me that provocative clothing is both seen as a "reason" and an "excuse" by rapists. An admitter will say that " Yes I raped her because of how she was dressed", while a denier will say "It wasn't a rape, because she was dressed provocatively"
In either case, we ALL want the same thing here...less (or preferably) no rape.
By insisting on the point that a woman "should" be able to dress any way she wants, and not be raped, instead of acknowledging that, at least statistically, that 22% and 17% of these cases may have been avoided had the victim been dressed modestly, in counter to that goal.
IMHO, if dressing modestly can prevent one rape, let alone somewhere between 17 and 22% of them, then I say dress modestly.
You are not going to find anyone here that is arguing that a woman deserved to be raped because of her clothing. All we are trying to point out is that it does play a part in the attackers mind. This study is about as "first hand" factual as you can get.
Post by
Gone
I have no doubt that dressing provocatively can encourage rape in some cases. Anybody who denies that is deluding themselves. But that doesn't mean women should have to dress more modestly because of this. The responsibility is on the attacker, not the victim.
Post by
Skreeran
Now are we talking about forcible rape or date rape here?
Because as I've said before, forcible rape has nothing to do with clothing or sex.
Post by
Magician22773
The responsibility is on the attacker, not the victim.
OK, we all agree with this one. So it needs to be taken out of the equation.
I have no doubt that dressing provocatively can encourage rape in some cases.
But that doesn't mean women should have to dress more modestly because of this.
Now, with those two quotes separated, do you not see how trying to argue both of them at the same time is counterproductive to the goal of reducing rape?
You admit that <something> is a possible precursor to rape.
Yet you still feel compelled to argue that that <something> should not be discouraged.
You cannot be on both sides of a fence. Either you argue, like Adamsm, that the way a woman dresses plays no part in a rapist's decision (which was shown to be wrong by the study), or you are willing to accept 17-22% more rapes in order for women to be able to wear whatever they want.
There is a difference, a HUGE difference, between identifying a significant factor in how a rapist chooses his victim, and saying that it would be a wise decision to avoid that factor, and "blaming the victim". Unfortunately, the feminists do not want to acknowledge that difference, and are, IMHO, contributing to the number of rapes by advocating 'independence' in how women should dress.
Now are we talking about forcible rape or date rape here?
Because as I've said before, forcible rape has nothing to do with clothing or sex.
I would say that if you separated 'date rape' from other rapes, that the percentage that claimed appearance was a factor would literally skyrocket.
My guess is, the study included both 'types' of rape, and it is very possible that most of the ones that attributed appearance to equal consent were of the 'date rape' category.
I do realize that there are people out there that are simply predators, and their victims appearance has little to nothing to do with their crime. I am not saying that dressing modestly would stop all rape, only that it would stop some. And if it only stops one, then it is worth it.
Post by
Skreeran
If you're talking about forcible rape, I can promise you that it doesn't play a factor. Any rapist who says otherwise is making excuses.
Post by
Gone
If you're talking about forcible rape, I can promise you that it doesn't play a factor. Any rapist who says otherwise is making excuses.
Not all rapists have the same motivation. For guys who stalk people in the bushes, a lot of the time it's about power, but not every attacker is like that. I read an article about a guy who would go into clubs and basically hang around until he spotted a girl he liked, then slip her a roofie or something, escort her outside and rape her in his car. That's certainly considered forcible rape, and physical attraction obviously plays a role here.
Post by
Magician22773
If you're talking about forcible rape, I can promise you that it doesn't play a factor. Any rapist who says otherwise is making excuses.
I think you are still painting with too broad of a brush here.
There are men who are just going to attack whatever woman comes their way. Maybe they have staked out a dark spot in a park or something, so the first female that passes by is going to be a target. But these types of rape are one of the lowest probability. Date raoe, acquantince rape, and stalking rape are the most common, and all of these have a possibility of appearance being a factor.
Post by
Skreeran
I think that's toeing the line though. Roofies are not called "date rape drugs" for no reason.
On an unrelated note, my google history now contains "japanese rpg succubus child" (from my trying to find Disgaea, which had a recent game with a prepubscent looking succubus in skimpy clothes; I was telling my friends how creepy Japanese games can be sometimes), "age of consent in texas" (because someone had been claiming that it was 18 country-wide), and "date rape drug."
%$#@.
I think you are still painting with too broad of a brush here.
There are men who are just going to attack whatever woman comes their way. Maybe they have staked out a dark spot in a park or something, so the first female that passes by is going to be a target. But these types of rape are one of the lowest probability. Date raoe, acquantince rape, and stalking rape are the most common, and all of these have a possibility of appearance being a factor.I'd still argue that aquantaince rape and stalking rape are still both about power, cruelty, and domination, moreso than sex.
Post by
Magician22773
This
woman is quite attractive, IMHO.
Now, if she, and
this
woman are both in the same place, at the same time, and there is a sexual predator there, which one do you think has the higher chance of becoming a victim?
I'd still argue that acquaintance rape and stalking rape are still both about power, cruelty, and domination, moreso than sex.
The act itself, yes. But you cannot entirely rule out appearance from the choice of a victim.
All I am arguing is that a woman that dresses (and acts) modestly, has a lesser chance of becoming a victim, than one that dresses (and / or acts) provocative.
In retrospect, unless
all
women suddenly started dressing modestly, the overall number of rapes may not be reduced, but a woman's
individual
chances of being victimized are greatly reduced by their appearance, lifestyle, and demeanor.
Post by
Gone
Well now we are just arguing over semantics. I think we can all at least agree that physical attraction, and thus skimpy cloths, can increase the danger of being raped by a stranger. Whether you wanna call it forcible rape or date rape, is up to you.
On an unrelated note, my google history now contains "japanese rpg succubus child" (from my trying to find Disgaea, which had a recent game with a prepubscent looking succubus in skimpy clothes; I was telling my friends how creepy Japanese games can be sometimes), "age of consent in texas" (because someone had been claiming that it was 18 country-wide), and "date rape drug."
Try explaining that and all the MLP stuff if a cop ever confiscates your computer (I say this as a brony myself).
Post by
MyTie
If you're talking about forcible rape, I can promise you that it doesn't play a factor. Any rapist who says otherwise is making excuses.
None. Not once? So, if a prospective rapist is standing on the street corner, and spots two different women, one is a really hot 20-something woman in suggestive clothing, and the other is a 500 pound 90 year old woman wearing sackcloth and an iron lung, the chances of one or the other woman being the final victim are exactly equal, because sexual attraction has NOTHING to do with it at all? That's what you are saying?
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