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10.2.5
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@ Feminism
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Post by
Squishalot
Huh? Before I make any comment on this, could you please explain what you mean here?
I was referring to Lightsaber complaining loudly on Twitter about people being sexist and rude and expecting help from the interwebs. That'd be the last place I'd look for help if I was being cyberbullied.
I'm not sure that you would've apologised to a guard for using a racial slur if you ever met him again. He would've been just another person who f'd you over while you were down.
Again, wrong analogy. The guard would not be the one using the racial slur...that (hypothetically) would have been me.
The question is, should I apologize to the guard for me yelling a racial slur.
I think you misunderstood me. I said that I'm not sure that you would be apologising to the guard for (you) using a racial slur, in the same way that I wouldn't expect Lightsaber to apologise to all the creeps online who were making lewd statements at her or kicking her while she was down.
So to use your big robber example (which I agree with generally meets the same analogies), supplant the crowd with an additional bit that considers that the crowd isn't just passively standing by, but watching on and lecturing you while you're getting robbed.
To be honest, I think you would be somewhat justified if you didn't apologise to them. It doesn't make you right, but I don't think you would owe them anything.
Post by
Magician22773
I think you misunderstood me. I said that I'm not sure that you would be apologising to the guard for (you) using a racial slur, in the same way that I wouldn't expect Lightsaber to apologise to all the creeps online who were making lewd statements at her or kicking her while she was down.
That is kinda why I swapped the analogy, even though the first one is an actual event. Considering that I was in an actual "fight for my life" situation, and the guards were bound by their job, and a bit more morality, (considering that not intervening would probably have cost me my life)...the robbery example is a little more realistic to the real situation, since really, only egos, feelings, and a few dollars in a wallet are all that were at stake.
So, OK...in my real life example...the guards would probably have been criminally liable for my death, so that would maybe change the outcome.
But in the robbery example, I did add the crowd not just standing there....
"If you are going to call us all lazy %^&*!@s, then you deserve to get robbed"
And i do think that they would be justified in saying that, and in refusing to help. And I do think they would be deserving of an apology.
Post by
Gone
Curiously enough, as a side issue, I can't actually think of any slurs regarding men. I mean, you have your homosexual and racial slurs for different varieties of men, but there aren't really obscenities for a man like there are for women. I can say wh%$# or sl%$ or c%$# or b%$#@ as a slur against women.
I'm kinda drawing a blank for men though. Jackass? D%$#?
D*ck, bas**rd, a**hole, f***ot, etc. The typical highschool locker room drivel.
Post by
Squishalot
And i do think that they would be justified in saying that, and in refusing to help. And I do think they would be deserving of an apology.
We might need to agree to disagree here. I don't think they would deserve an apology at all if they had an opportunity to help, but chose to instead side with the muggers and defend their actions. If they'd gotten involved and defended you from being mugged, I think you would be bound to apologise. But siding with your attackers because you called them a name? That's pretty scummy, if you ask me.
I'd also note that if someone is getting mugged, nobody, especially someone trying to live by Christ's word, should feel justified in standing and watching and lecturing while an attack is in progress, instead of trying to help or at the very least, staying aside and calling the cops, for example. I'm trying to work out how your viewpoint reconciles with your Christian beliefs, and I can't quite make the connection.
D*ck, bas**rd, a**hole, f***ot, etc. The typical highschool locker room drivel.
The first two have been colloquialised and don't maintain the same taboo/severity status as the wh, sl or c words previously suggested by Skreeran. The latter two can be and are applied to anybody, not just men.
Post by
Patty
Also *!@got/!@# is more generally a slur for homosexuals, not men as a whole. There is literally no male equivalent that has all the same ugly implications as s***, wh*** (both of which degrade women for expression of their sexuality) or c*** (d***, whilst technically the same kind of stem, carries nowhere near the degree of hatred that c*** does).
Post by
MyTie
Zealot. Bible thumper. Cis-scum. Cracker. $%^&. White Trash. Not to mention just calling me a "chauvanist" "racist" "homophobe" etc. These labels only apply to me, and instead of just being an insult, carry real social implications. It's literally impossible to insult someone who is white and has a penis. Amirite?
Post by
Skreeran
?
Zealot is gender neutral. So is Bible thumper. Never heard that third one before. Cracker and White Trash are gender neutral.
What is your point?
I'm not saying men can't be insulted. Assuming those things you quoted
here
are true and in context, then I was a little hurt emotionally by them. I don't like hate directed at me.
But that's not my point at all. My point is that there are slurs for just about everyone besides men. Sure, there are slurs that can be
applied
to men, like racial slurs, but nothing exclusively for men, like there are for women. That's evidence of the patriarchy, to me.
Post by
MyTie
When was the last time you heard someone call a woman a "chauvinist". It is a word that carries a negative connotation and is against men only. The other terms were in response to the word #$%got. There is this idea that white men can feel no negative social stigmas, when in reality the social stigmas toward men are accepted.
That's the problem I have with the term "male privilege" and "patriarchy". They are pejorative, and applied to men, in the hopes of promoting equality for women. That is why people wonder if the feminist movement is all about hating men. We don't talk about how women are oppressed, and how it is wrong, we talk negatively about how men AREN'T oppressed, and how unfair that is. I mean, how are people supposed to react when we use terms like "male privilege" as a way of complaining about how men aren't oppressed. Further, the conversation gets even more alienating when someone takes it even further, and explains how there is no way a man could possibly understand any of this, just because they are male. It's insulting. Then, we turn around and complain about how it is impossible to insult men.
Look at the last, what, 5 pages? Maybe more? It's all about how men have it good, that isn't fair, and further debate about whether men should even be involved in the discussion. But feminism isn't all about hating men. One page ago I listed a bunch of quotes from famous feminists, that clearly hate men, and pointing out how feminists almost never decry man hating, then asked what the feminists here thought. Not a one comment about them. But feminism isn't all about hating men. Heck, you can't even insult a man. It's impossible. We are simply immune to feeling any injustice, insult, injury, pain, etc. Us men go around in bear robes, antler helmets, on chariots pulls by women and black kids, eating the fat of the land.
Post by
Skreeran
Chauvinist is not a slur. F****t is a slur against
homosexual
men, another oppressed minority.
That's the problem I have with the term "male privilege" and "patriarchy". They are pejorative, and applied to men, in the hopes of promoting equality for women.It's not a pejorative, it's a fact. It's like saying "white privilege" in 1864. It's not about white people being evil, or cruel, or saying that all white people hate blacks and own slaves. It's just in reference that black people back then had less rights against them.
That's not to say that women today have it as bad as black people in the 19th century. I'm just using a more dire situation to illustrate my point. Women aren't quite second-class citizens anymore, but there is still stigma. Look at "man" and "mankind" in reference to humanity. Men are generally the protagonists in video games, movies, and television series, with women being relegated to support characters or love interests.
I feel like even with all the progress that's been made in recent centuries, there's still this general idea that men are the "default" setting for humans, and women are a smaller, weaker sub-type.
One page ago I listed a bunch of quotes from famous feminists, that clearly hate men, and pointing out how feminists almost never decry man hating, then asked what the feminists here thought. Not a one comment about them.I commented on it. It hurt reading that, because I'm a man who really tries to understand and help work for equality. If you mean "no women commented on it," that's not really fair because I haven't seen them comment on this thread at all today.
Heck, you can't even insult a man. It's impossible. We are simply immune to feeling any injustice, insult, injury, pain, etc. Us men go around in bear robes, antler helmets, on chariots pulls by women and black kids, eating the fat of the land.That's not what I meant and you know it. I'm not saying you can't insult men. I'm not saying men can't feel insulted. I am a man myself, for crying out loud, and I damn sure can feel unfairly treated or emotionally wounded.
But that's not the point. The point is that slurs are designed to be pinned on people
outside
ones group. That's why white people came up with n***** and black people came up with cr*****. Slurs aren't meant to be applied to ones own group (the curious--seemingly unique--fate of the n-word being a different topic). So it's interesting then that there are slurs against women, but not against men. That doesn't mean men can't be insulted, but that the development of modern english language has been primarily helmed by men.
Post by
asakawa
The word Patriarchy isn't pejorative or used against men. It's a description of a social system with men as the authority figures. You're welcome, of course, to disagree that it describes modern society but I don't think it's an insult to suggest that we live in a patriarchy. That just sounds like a very sensible part of a discussion.
I also don't see it as out of line for someone to describe one group's oppression in terms of the freedoms of another group. I'm not going to defend "man hating" or that kind of thing but I consider myself a feminist because I think women should be given equal respect and equal opportunity.
Post by
MyTie
I missed your comment on the comments, sorry. I disagree that "chauvinist" isn't a derogatory term applied to males by females. I also don't agree that "male privilege" isn't a pejorative about how men aren't oppressed. Saying "well it's the truth" doesn't work for me. I believe in promoting equality by focusing on people's strengths, and decrying injustice against those who are oppressed. I do NOT believe in promoting equality by focusing on the groups who are not oppressed. That kind of focusing on those not oppressed, or reverse oppression, can't lead to anything good.
Post by
asakawa
Really? So a suffragette saying "Men can vote and I can't" (focussing on the freedoms of others) couldn't lead to anything good? It seems a perfectly reasonable way to make a point, to demonstrate the freedoms that are taken for granted by one group but that are unavailable to another. It is, after all, the imbalance that is the root of the issue.
Post by
Squishalot
Chauvinist = Ball breaker / feminazi. Toyboy = gold digger. Cougar = cradle snatcher.
Not that I think any of those are 'slurs' as such anyway. They're colloquial descriptions of fact. They're no more a slur than 'of lower than average intelligence' is.
Post by
Gone
Guys who aren't gay can still be called f****t if they don't act 'manly' enough. Most of the time if somebody calls a women a wh**e she's not actually sleeping with people for money.
I wouldn't really call words like s**t w***e and c**t slurs because first, women use then against each other just as much as men do, and its not in an affectionate way like some black people use the N word with each other. And secondly women aren't really a minority in the same sense that racial minorities and homosexuals are.
Post by
Squishalot
I wouldn't really call words like s**t w***e and c**t slurs because first,
women use then against each other just as much as men do
, and its not in an affectionate way like some black people use the N word with each other. And secondly
women aren't really a minority
in the same sense that racial minorities and homosexuals are.
Do you know what the definition of a 'slur' is?
Post by
Adamsm
Very very few people, of either gender, use the C word jokingly; that's about one of the easiest ways to get a woman pissed off at you and going for your nuts with a knife.
Post by
asakawa
In a thread about feminism Adamsm paints all women as knife wielding maniacs who will get violent at the use of a mere word
!
:P
Post by
Adamsm
Hey now, I watched one of my friend's almost take a guy's head off after he called her the c word. I've never once heard that word used in a joking matter.
Edit: Most women I know absolutely hate that word.
Post by
asakawa
I'm only messing with you. My wife hates the word too.
Personally I think it's just a word but when used to insult a woman it's incredibly reductive and demeaning. But, you know, analyse what pretty much any insult is actually saying and you'll get something pretty appalling. I think that the sorts of common insults levied at women (being almost entirely sexual, whether reductive or defamatory) is quite telling but I'm not really sure that there's a lot of useful ground to be covered on specific insults.
edit: plus all this filter circumvention is sending me apopleptic! O_o(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
Aye.
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