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Mages and time warp = loss of shaman raid spots?
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Post by
MegaVolt
The problem is this: an ele shammy, wearing all BiS gear, at the absolute top of his or her game, will provide less dps than a similarly geared mage or warlock. An enh shammy, wearing all BiS gear, at the absolute top of his game, will provide less dps than a similarly geared rogue or dk.
I agree that elemental Shamans are in a bad spot right now and need a small buff - but the damage difference to other classes is in no way game breaking, it's just a few percent and with the 10% ICC damage buff every Shaman can do more than enough damage.
There is almos no damage difference between an enhancement Shaman and a DK with the same lvl of gear, exactly as it should be. Even without bringing any mandatory buff a Shaman can justify his raid spot by dps alone.
The only thing I'd change is the hybrid tax. It just doesn't make any sense in a raid environment since hybrid classes can't do two roles at the same time and especially for guild progression they can't even swap between two different specs between fights since it's impossible to have gear for both.
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239809
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Post by
MegaVolt
they can't even swap between two different specs between fights since it's impossible to have gear for both.
Of course it's not. Dont be ridiculous.
You missed the important part:
especially for guild progression
they can't even swap between two different specs between fights since it's impossible to have gear for both.
Guild progression means the instance just got released and your guild is in it for the first few attempts. Imagine you are a feral main spec and resto off spec Druid. Since it's progression content the new and better items will be extremely rare. You will get great items for your feral main spec but unless the content is on farm it is pretty much impossible to get them for your off spec since there will be plenty of other main spec healers needing them. So during guild progression you can only keep one well geared spec and the other one just has to fall behind.
Emblems just make this worse since you simply can't buy 4set for two (hybrid) specs at the same time.
That's why for progression content you can only possibly have one geared spec. For farm stuff this changes of course since there will be plenty of off spec items.
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Post by
Eleazer
If you're good, you shouldn't lose your raid spot, if you do, then either the following:
1. You Suck
2. That guild sucks - a good guild won't sit a good player just because of a buff.
Incorrect on many levels. If I have two good players, and one open spot, I am dropping the guy whose class does less for the raid and personal dps than the other guy. A good example would be and enhance shaman and a frost dk. If I have a resto or ele shaman in the raid, why would I bring the enhance over the frost dk? He provides no buff that isn't already better with the frost dk, and he provides less dps. Given equal skill and gear the Frost DK provides a better buff (passive 100yard range) and provides a higher dps possibility (Frost DK in my guild is pushing 12k on some 25m fights 10k on 10m).
The enhance shaman in my guild is equally geared and equally skilled, and only pulls 7-8k while the frost dk pulls 10k. So help me out, why should I bring the enhance shaman again? If I get a mage who already are significantly higher in dps than a shaman (and are receiving buffs in Cata) than why would I bring the ele shaman if I already have a demo lock/resto shaman/mage?
This change will benefit 10m raids, but will significantly hurt shamans in 25m where a surplus of better dps options are available. I am a raid leader and play a shaman, the difference between a shaman and mage is so significant at this level that it's not even funny, the shaman is brought for his buffs. The Mage for his dps. An average skilled mage with equal gear to an excellent elemental shaman will still win in dps. So again why should I bring the elemental shaman? Because I like the guy?
Post by
ducksaucer
If you're good, you shouldn't lose your raid spot, if you do, then either the following:
1. You Suck
2. That guild sucks - a good guild won't sit a good player just because of a buff.
Incorrect on many levels. If I have two good players, and one open spot, I am dropping the guy whose class does less for the raid and personal dps than the other guy. A good example would be and enhance shaman and a frost dk. If I have a resto or ele shaman in the raid, why would I bring the enhance over the frost dk? He provides no buff that isn't already better with the frost dk, and he provides less dps. Given equal skill and gear the Frost DK provides a better buff (passive 100yard range) and provides a higher dps possibility (Frost DK in my guild is pushing 12k on some 25m fights 10k on 10m).
The enhance shaman in my guild is equally geared and equally skilled, and only pulls 7-8k while the frost dk pulls 10k. So help me out, why should I bring the enhance shaman again? If I get a mage who already are significantly higher in dps than a shaman (and are receiving buffs in Cata) than why would I bring the ele shaman if I already have a demo lock/resto shaman/mage?
This change will benefit 10m raids, but will significantly hurt shamans in 25m where a surplus of better dps options are available. I am a raid leader and play a shaman, the difference between a shaman and mage is so significant at this level that it's not even funny, the shaman is brought for his buffs. The Mage for his dps. An average skilled mage with equal gear to an excellent elemental shaman will still win in dps. So again why should I bring the elemental shaman? Because I like the guy?
That is completely true. Man raid atm only really look for extra Shamans are due to the Heroism/Blood Lust buff. Incase one shammy dies, you'll have another one for back up. If they create another class with the same buff as us. We'll be completely screwed. In normal 5m Heroic Dungeon. I've done up to 7.2k on a boss. Completely popped all my CDs. My Lightning Bolt was down to .8secs per cast. My mage friend that was 300gs under me was able to hold over 11k dps without any of his CD popped. When popped he could easily go over the 14k mark. How is that even fair?
Maybe in Cata we'll be better with the whole DPS due to LvB being able to proc Elemental Overload. That is still a chance, since procting something is based off of pure luck.
Another thing is that Ele shammies are based off of pure co-efficients from talents.
While Mages and Boomkin have a more of a boost.
Mages get 15% of their int into Spell Power
Boomkins get 15% Int and 20% Spirit into Spell Power.
Only thing we can really relie on is LIGHTNING OVERLOAD..... really? sometimes that doesn't proc for me for a straight 10-15 shots.....
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Post by
Gnub
Another thing is that Ele shammies are based off of pure co-efficients from talents.
While Mages and Boomkin have a more of a boost.
Mages get 15% of their int into Spell Power
Boomkins get 15% Int and 20% Spirit into Spell Power.
Only thing we can really relie on is LIGHTNING OVERLOAD..... really? sometimes that doesn't proc for me for a straight 10-15 shots.....
Because the talents won't change in Cataclysm - right?
Comparing Cataclysm changes to WotLK is like Apples and Oranges. When will people learn it?
Oh for crying out loud, let it rest.
Bring the player, not the class.
In Cata Blizzard is reversing that saying
Bring the class, not the player
Please explain how that even makes remotely sense. More classes with the same buffs and an overall equality in damage output and performance, means that you'd want to take the best players along, not the ones with class X.
Post by
ducksaucer
Another thing is that Ele shammies are based off of pure co-efficients from talents.
While Mages and Boomkin have a more of a boost.
Mages get 15% of their int into Spell Power
Boomkins get 15% Int and 20% Spirit into Spell Power.
Only thing we can really relie on is LIGHTNING OVERLOAD..... really? sometimes that doesn't proc for me for a straight 10-15 shots.....
Because the talents won't change in Cataclysm - right?
Comparing Cataclysm changes to WotLK is like Apples and Oranges. When will people learn it?
I'm sorry... i donno if your trying to troll me... or your from argent bad....
But man... L2P shammy, if not, don't post on this topic.
How am I comparing cata at all here? I'm refering to all WoLK content.
My friend is a mage he tells me he hasa talent that adds 15% sp from int.
I have a boomkin, he has a 15% sp from int and 20% sp from Spirit.
I have a shammy that has the talent. LIGHTNING OVERLOAD.
I'm saying based off my "OWN EXPERIENCE" the proc rate for lightning is like Boomkin's RNG (if you donno what that is, go learn some more).
Maybe your having an off day and thought i was talking about Element Overload. Please re-read before talking about stuff you "DON'T" know.
Edit -
Forgot to add.... are you even a shammy? Taking best players over class? at you that ignorant?
Pull your thumb out of your *** and learn about classes. If you ever talk about a shammy able to over take a mage in single target DPS if they're the same GS, then your sadly mistaken... there's only so much skill can pull up for you.
Post by
Eleazer
Incorrect gnub, there has never been a case ever in the history of WoW. Certain classes have higher dps. I don't care how good a player you are if your class is gimped than you can't keep up. Back in TBC, I raided as a disc smite priest, and I was really good. In fact I was doing 3-5k dps in Kara, however as other equally talented players caught up to me in gear, I soon fell behind them in dps.
At that point I rolled an enhance shaman and fell in love with the look and play style of the shaman. I rolled to 70 got him geared, and once again was leading in dps and times died due to pulling off the tank. Through Gruul's and Mag's I led in dps and in gear score. However, soon the rogues/locks/mages/hunters/druids/warriors all became as geared as I was, and we replaced our bad players with good ones. Take a wild guess as to what happened. My dps stayed the same theirs surpassed me. I was no longer number 1 I was now number 7, than 8, than 9, than 10. Did I suddenly become a worse player? No, their class scaled better and had better potential numbers than mine. So I was brought along to make their dps better using beneficial buffs.
This is the problem shamans have faced every stage of the game, however we have always provided the best buffs in the game. This was why we were brought along. The thought was "I can take a smaller dps from one guy in order to benefit raid wide dps". This is no longer possible since we no longer provide any unique buffs (outside of wrath of air), and in fact our buffs are now worse than Frost DK's and Demo locks (due to Range factors and having to replace them constantly).
As a raid leader and shaman, when looking at progression where maximizing dps is paramount, with the lack of dps scaling on shamans since the beginning of the game till now, why would you give away every dps raid buff we have to classes who already do more dps than us, and then give away what is perhaps the greatest reason for bringing a shaman?
I am honestly in need of an answer, because it doesn't make any sense to not change our dps scaling while take away any need for a shaman at all. This is not an L2P issue, it's a my class is awesome and you just gutted it issue. I enjoyed playing the utility role. Provide decent dps, but give my raid an easier time. You don't need a shaman to do a raid it just makes it easier.
Post by
ducksaucer
Incorrect gnub, there has never been a case ever in the history of WoW. Certain classes have higher dps. I don't care how good a player you are if your class is gimped than you can't keep up. Back in TBC, I raided as a disc smite priest, and I was really good. In fact I was doing 3-5k dps in Kara, however as other equally talented players caught up to me in gear, I soon fell behind them in dps.
At that point I rolled an enhance shaman and fell in love with the look and play style of the shaman. I rolled to 70 got him geared, and once again was leading in dps and times died due to pulling off the tank. Through Gruul's and Mag's I led in dps and in gear score. However, soon the rogues/locks/mages/hunters/druids/warriors all became as geared as I was, and we replaced our bad players with good ones. Take a wild guess as to what happened. My dps stayed the same theirs surpassed me. I was no longer number 1 I was now number 7, than 8, than 9, than 10. Did I suddenly become a worse player? No, their class scaled better and had better potential numbers than mine. So I was brought along to make their dps better using beneficial buffs.
This is the problem shamans have faced every stage of the game, however we have always provided the best buffs in the game. This was why we were brought along. The thought was "I can take a smaller dps from one guy in order to benefit raid wide dps". This is no longer possible since we no longer provide any unique buffs (outside of wrath of air), and in fact our buffs are now worse than Frost DK's and Demo locks (due to Range factors and having to replace them constantly).
As a raid leader and shaman, when looking at progression where maximizing dps is paramount, with the lack of dps scaling on shamans since the beginning of the game till now, why would you give away every dps raid buff we have to classes who already do more dps than us, and then give away what is perhaps the greatest reason for bringing a shaman?
I am honestly in need of an answer, because it doesn't make any sense to not change our dps scaling while take away any need for a shaman at all. This is not an L2P issue, it's a my class is awesome and you just gutted it issue. I enjoyed playing the utility role. Provide decent dps, but give my raid an easier time. You don't need a shaman to do a raid it just makes it easier.
Thank you... that was a beautiful post....
I'd like to add to that, Elemental Shammies are the only class without a talent that adds SP/Spell Co-efficients.
Example -
Mages - 15% sp from Int
Boomkin - 15% from int and 20% from spirit
Hunter - 15% AP from Spirit
Priest - 15% sp from int or spirit... forgot..
Resto Shammy - 15% sp from int (i think)
Enhan Shammy - 100% AP from int
Basically everyone scales up but us...
Post by
Gnub
Right ducksaucer, hang on a second there.
The thread was originally about Cataclysm, and the change coming to Mages, that will question our position in raids. Since that change isn't going to happen until then, the discussion about who's scaling the best is pointless - as things in change in Cataclysm, and we don't know how those talents are fanning out.
I never claimed that Shamans scaled as good as everyone else (I know it sucks). Please get your facts straight (and learn to read) before tossing a bucket-load of crap at my way, thank you. If you take me for a moronic no-brainer, then you obviously havn't been on the shaman forums long.
Post by
Eleazer
Your reply was moronic though. You seem to forget the simply "Hybrid Tax" applied to all hybrids. You will always be 5 percent less. When have we ever scaled as any other class. Remember Blizz has repeated ad nausea-um, that our dps is less because we provide better dps raid buffs than other classes.
Post by
ducksaucer
Right ducksaucer, hang on a second there.
The thread was originally about Cataclysm, and the change coming to Mages, that will question our position in raids. Since that change isn't going to happen until then, the discussion about who's scaling the best is pointless - as things in change in Cataclysm, and we don't know how those talents are fanning out.
I never claimed that Shamans scaled as good as everyone else (I know it sucks). Please get your facts straight (and learn to read) before tossing a bucket-load of crap at my way, thank you. If you take me for a moronic no-brainer, then you obviously havn't been on the shaman forums long.
I know this topic is about cata but my refrence in that post was refered to current WoLK standings. You were talking about the competance of people comparing WoLK to Cata.
ofc they can't be compared. It's a whole 5 lvls apart.
I don't use forums usually, so no, i donno who you are, but they way you came off seemed very arrogent.
Post by
Gnub
I know this topic is about cata but my refrence in that post was refered to current WoLK standings. You were talking about the competance of people comparing WoLK to Cata.
In any case, that will explain my post.
ofc they can't be compared. It's a whole 5 lvls apart.
I don't use forums usually, so no, i donno who you are, but they way you came off seemed very arrogent.
5 levels and a whole expansion, to be exact.
And yes, I might've come of as arrogant (and excuse me, but your first reply wasn't exactly friendly :P), but that's really easy when there are so many threads with people not getting the fact I was typing, and merely crying endlessly that they'd lose their raidspots because Mages got 'lust.
Post by
ducksaucer
I could see how that could annoy someone, if not annoy anyone.
But the point I'm trying to bring up, the Shammy is already considered underscaled compared to the other classes atm.
From what you can see from the future class changes to WoW in Cata, it looks as if the Shammy class is becoming less and less useful in overall Raid buff, and we are only getting a minor DPS push in Cata. Unlike other classes, we only have Elemental Oath/Shamaism (i think... forgot Enhance) and totems. Mages have arcaine brilliance/crit aura as well/higher dps then us.
Our totems are being replaced by people such as Locks and DKs.
If they take away Heroism/Blood Lust from us, there won't be much to sell ourselves with as much as other classes. Depends, there aren't many Shammy on my server so I'm not as concerned. But I can totally understand where some people are coming from.
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