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Is horde seriously over-rated?
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Post by
Skreeran
I think Rankkor's point is essentially that the New Horde is composed of many of the same troops as the Old Horde, and of the same races (or at least with alternatives).
Dismissing the Old Horde as easily beatable is essentially dismissing the New.
Post by
Monday
I think Rankkor's point is essentially that the New Horde is composed of many of the same troops as the Old Horde, and of the same races (or at least with alternatives).
Dismissing the Old Horde as easily beatable is essentially dismissing the New.
But dismissing the Alliance as nothing is exactly the same, if not worse now that they have Draenei/Night Elves that joined and the reintroduction of Gilneas.
Post by
Adamsm
I think Rankkor's point is essentially that the New Horde is composed of many of the same troops as the Old Horde, and of the same races (or at least with alternatives).
Dismissing the Old Horde as easily beatable is essentially dismissing the New.
Aye. That's why we need a Warcraft 4 to find out in a straight fight, no outside forces, no betrayals, no sudden assassinations and no demon fingers in pies to finally end it once and for all.
Post by
Skreeran
I think Rankkor's point is essentially that the New Horde is composed of many of the same troops as the Old Horde, and of the same races (or at least with alternatives).
Dismissing the Old Horde as easily beatable is essentially dismissing the New.
But dismissing the Alliance as nothing is exactly the same, if not worse now that they have Draenei/Night Elves that joined and the reintroduction of Gilneas.I wasn't dismissing the Alliance. I simply think that the Horde was winning the Second War. Considering the Horde's numbers were considerably greater than they are now, and the orcs were still fresh off the demon blood, I don't think that's dismissing the Alliance at all.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, well let's admit; without Doomhammer taking over, the Old Horde probably wouldn't have done as well as they did. Gul'dan was focused on the power of Sargeras, which got him killed and branded a traitor. Blackhand was a bully and a mental weakling, merely a puppet for the Shadow Council; he probably never would have tried to ally with the trolls, and would have been fine letting Gul'dan lead him around by the nose.
Post by
Skreeran
Heh, well let's admit; without Doomhammer taking over, the Old Horde probably wouldn't have done as well as they did. Gul'dan was focused on the power of Sargeras, which got him killed and branded a traitor. Blackhand was a bully and a mental weakling, merely a puppet for the Shadow Council; he probably never would have tried to ally with the trolls, and would have been fine letting Gul'dan lead him around by the nose.I agree. Doomhammer was a brilliant leader and tactician. A match for Lothar, in my opinion.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh, well let's admit; without Doomhammer taking over, the Old Horde probably wouldn't have done as well as they did. Gul'dan was focused on the power of Sargeras, which got him killed and branded a traitor. Blackhand was a bully and a mental weakling, merely a puppet for the Shadow Council; he probably never would have tried to ally with the trolls, and would have been fine letting Gul'dan lead him around by the nose.I agree. Doomhammer was a brilliant leader and tactician. A match for Lothar, in my opinion.
Aye, no doubt, which is why I'm saying if the First War had gone differently, he never would have been in command of the Horde, which means they probably wouldn't have pushed past Stormwind.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
HiVolt
And I don't; the Humans were used to the Horde by this time, as were the horses, so the original shock and awe by the 'greenskinned invaders' had worn off. Without Medivh killing off the conjurers of Stormwind, they would have been at full power magically, and they had been holding their own against the orc warlocks. Stormwind fell due to the chaos caused by the death of Medivh and Llane, without that, and with Lothar there leading the armies, they would have probably driven them off.
Actually, the Horde could have easily sent the rest of their forces from Draenor. In the First War, there were quite a few clans that stayed behind, including the Warsong, Bonechewer and Shattered Hand (three of the most war-experienced clans). If they had come through the portal initially, Stormwind likely would not have had a cold chance in hell of winning.
So, say the scenarios that you presented actually did happen.
If the Orcs had been pushed back at any time, they would have fielded the rest of their troops from Draenor. I would wager that doing so would add another 40% mobilized strength to the Horde, as quite a lot of Orcs stayed behind.
To an already weakened Stormwind, those additional numbers would have been the nail in the coffin.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
WELL DUH IT'S ALLIANCE IT DOESN'T COUNT DERP.Yeah, that's more or less the reasoning.and all draenei are esentially Rhonin in blue skin. the race is too perfect, I have yet to see a flawed draenei anywere, they are too perfect.
they are awesome, no doubt about that ,but are too much awesome, too much mary-sueness.The Auchenai, a significant percentage of the Wyrmcult, a few Cult of the Damned sell-outs, and several scary Knight Templar vindicators do not count. Gotcha. is good that the alliance also has night-elves and draenei among their numbers, because (to my knoledge) these 2 races are NOT cowards, at least I can't recall the first coward or desertor among them (the valiance keep derserters in warsong hold are all humans dwarves and gnomes)While
you
may think that draenei are a "Mary Sue" race, the fandumb has been very quick to deride them as cowards. Because apparently it's abject wussery for a remnant population to want to keep a step or so ahead of that ever-growing, nigh-on unstoppable army of demons until they're in a
position
to fight back.
Also: While pandaren might get added in some future xpack, they're
not
going to be samurai, because that's the grain of truth behind the China rumors. The Horde's player base is no better behaved than that for the Alliance. And as for the Alliance winning the cool factor on account of draenei and dwarves? Remember: the Horde has trolls and tauren.
Post by
taurenmoo812
I was skimming through the ToD chapters today, and well, heres what I found:
1. Horde had several advantages and got thier asses kicked pretty much the entire war.
2. Quel'Thalas wasn't defeated, they fought the Horde back.
3. There was an army of ships trying to take Hillsbrad, it even displays how every ship taken down on sea or land was quickly replaced by another.
4. Even if Gul'dan had ot betrayed the Horde, the Alliance armys were not far behind from reaching capital city and closing in on the Horde.
5. Aiden's betrayal made a big difference.
Try actully reading it then.
Fact was, the alliance had no chance against the horde at that time, until Gul'dans betrayal and doomhammer drawing his forces away to chase him. That was the only chance the alliance had to fight the devided forces.
Post by
Rankkor
The Auchenai, a significant percentage of the Wyrmcult, a few Cult of the Damned sell-outs, and several scary Knight Templar vindicators do not count. Gotcha
I'm talking about alliance draenei, not outsiders.
after all, if we take the humans for example, there are A LOT OF EVIL humans out there, including the defias, and the scarlet crusaders, but there are also a lot of evil humans inside the alliance.
if we take the orcs, there's A LOT OF EVIL ORCS including the shadow council (what remains of it) the members of the twillight cult, the dark horde in blackrock mountain, the fel horde in outland, but there are also evil orcs inside the horde.
now let's take a look at the draenei:
there's quite a few evil draenei outside of the alliance, like the auchenai, the wyrmcult, the cult of the damned ect. but name me 1 evil, or at least mean/cruel/impolite/non-perfect draenei INSIDE the alliance.
the entire exodar draenei are like blue-skinned versions of rhonin, all of them polite, nice, do-gooders, honorable, proud, honest, ect.
while these qualities are good, and admirable, they make the race "too perfect".
the orcs have the same qualities, but among their race, you can also see orcs that are rude, stupid, agressive, reckless, corrupted, cowards.
same goes for humans, they have nice qualities, but also nasty ones.
the ALLIANCE draenei have not a single flaw in their entire race, all of them are prefect.
if only some of them were perfect and some were not this would not bother me so much, but there u go, they are indeed a mary sue race.
auchenai, wyrmcult ect don't count because these are not alliance draenei, these are as much hostile to the alliance as they are to the horde.
Post by
Adamsm
several scary Knight Templar vindicators do not count.Heh, actually Rank, she's right.
Many draenei paladins become vindicators, some become exarchs. The name of their order is the Hand of Argus. Draenei "Vindicators" are more warriors than the traditional type of paladin, they have far more emphasis upon combat than they do with the teachings of the Holy Light. Draenei Vindicators are brutal opponents on the field, capable of sending down sheets of powerful Holy magic and wielding their weapons with precision and force that is often unmatched by others. A Draenei Vindicator is a feared and respected enemy, not only to the Burning Legion, but also to the Orcs who both fear and revile these powerful combatants, having lost many a number to them in the past, particularly when they first assaulted Shattrath, mentioned in the story "Unbroken", and now in the present as they wreak vengeance upon them for past atrocities that have been committed. Presumably formed after the Burning Legion took control of Argus, Draenei Vindicators make up the bulk of the forces of the draenei, they are heavily armoured and adding to this great defense they combine the use of the Holy Light and their large weapons to both defend positions and attack enemies. Vindicators also have a position of authority within the draenei society, much as a knight or paladin would in a human one, often asking players of tasks. There are vindicators who are willing to do whatever it takes to take down the Legion/Scourge, other evil forces, and probably anyone within the Alliance who betrays or goes against them would be a target as well; in other words, a fanatic.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
but name me 1 evil, or at least mean/cruel/impolite/non-perfect draenei INSIDE the alliance.First of all: you weren't specifying Alliance draenei before. By that logic, one might as well claim that tauren are a Mary Sue race.
Secondly:
Interrogator Khan
is a scary guy.
Torallius the Pack Handler
is an old grouch with no respect for anyone.
Vindicator Aldar
talks about eradicating blood elves. And while
Vindicator Kuros
has become something of a
memetic BAMF
as a result...the fact is
still
that bad things happen when he's pushed too far.
Post by
HiVolt
but name me 1 evil, or at least mean/cruel/impolite/non-perfect draenei INSIDE the alliance.First of all: you weren't specifying Alliance draenei before. By that logic, one might as well claim that tauren are a Mary Sue race.
As a counter-point to the Tauren being a Mary-Sue race: Magatha Grimtotem
Sure it's one character, but I believe it's a good example seeing that she's a very high ranking official. And she may not be morally evil, but she certainly seems to favor the darker side of the moral gray-scale.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
As a counter-point to the Tauren being a Mary-Sue race: Magatha Grimtotem
Sure it's one character, but I believe it's a good example seeing that she's a very high ranking official. And she may not be morally evil, but she certainly seems to favor the darker side of the moral gray-scale.Aside from the examples of nasty/scary draenei I mentioned above, there's implied (but little-explored) contempt towards Broken and shaman. (One of the problems with draenei is that they're relatively undeveloped lore-wise beyond the absolute basics.)
Post by
HiVolt
Aside from the examples of nasty/scary draenei I mentioned above, there's implied (but little-explored) contempt towards Broken and shaman. (One of the problems with draenei is that they're relatively undeveloped lore-wise beyond the absolute basics.)
Oh absolutely. After reading Unbroken, it's hard for me to not think of that stigma when thinking of the Draenei. But, I will admit that I have thought of them as a bit of a mary-sue race. I am sure that they do have flaws, it's just that those flaws are really not well represented with the lore or within the game itself for that matter.
I think that once we see the Draenei really going through some truly morally gray aspects in-game, the idea that they're a mary-sue race will essentially die out. I am very interested to see the development of the Draenei story in Cataclysm, as there will be very many morally gray ideas spread throughout it.
Post by
FarseerLolotea
Son of a gun, thread trimmed and unlocked. Oh absolutely. After reading Unbroken, it's hard for me to not think of that stigma when thinking of the Draenei.Now, I think the deal with the Broken was as much panic/paranoia as anything else. But that's an issue in its own right. But, I will admit that I have thought of them as a bit of a mary-sue race. I am sure that they do have flaws, it's just that those flaws are really not well represented with the lore or within the game itself for that matter.Now, see...one thing that bugs me
more
than people calling them a "Mary Sue race" is the fact that I can somewhat see where those accusations are coming from. The race has so little development that there hasn't been much exploration of their cultural flaws. (Unless you want to count fan works such as
Travels Throughout Azeroth And Outland
, that is.)
I think that once we see the Draenei really going through some truly morally gray aspects in-game, the idea that they're a mary-sue race will essentially die out. I am very interested to see the development of the Draenei story in Cataclysm, as there will be very many morally gray ideas spread throughout it.Indeed, although I don't think that's going to kill the accusations altogether.
Post by
HiVolt
Wow, thanks for the unlock and the cleanup. We had a really good discussion going on.
Post by
Kriddi
Well i have just been reading some Wowwiki pages, and according to them, the allys are better armed and have a bigger armie lore-wise.
Also I think that the horde never actualy crippled the dwarfs in the second war ( The dwarfs just closed the gate, The horde never got through it)
Also, the ties between the Humans,dwarfs,H-elfs and gnomes within the allys are old and well tested (even though they had a little "break up". Now myself, being not a omnipotent lore lord, so i could be wrong on thoes matters :)
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