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The Horde needs Thrall, and this is why..
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Post by
Adamsm
Exactly; if something 'really' happens to him; assassinated, accident, what have you: The Horde is #$%^ed, simple as that. None of the Alliance races are like that after all: Varian dies, the new Reagent helps Anduin for 4 years. Magni goes down, Brann or Maurdin could step up to rule till a new Thane could be decided. Malfurion or Tyrande goes down; Elune or Cenarius can choose a new leader for the Night Elves. The gnome king dies, a new gnome can take his place. Even if Velen dies, that merely means the Draenei lose out on one source of advice and good will... but the Naaru are still there, and they would probably help to make sure that the new Draenei leader follows in his predecessors footsteps.
I wouldn't say the Horde is screwed without Thrall. There are plenty of other leaders within the Horde that can take the mantle of Warchief if Thrall perishes. Drek'thar, Saurfang, even Vol'jin and Cairne can unite and lead the Horde as good as Thrall.
Yes, but Tauren is saying that Thrall is needed above all others: so if he goes down, that's it, the Horde is dead.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
When it came to it, despite Orgrims honorable intentions
He had none. You might as well say
this man
had good intentions before him.
Honor and Orgrim don't go together. Thats like comparing a nun and a hooker.Dark, that wasn't needed. And Doomhammer had his own sense of honour, one that is similar to Varian's so please don't bash opinions.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
He had none. You might as well say this man had good intentions before him.
Honor and Orgrim don't go together. Thats like comparing a nun and a hooker.Oh, this again...
/sigh
What would you do if you were Orgrim, dark? Besides killing Gul'dan which I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges as a mistake.
Let's look at his choices:
1. Keep the Horde in the southern continent of Azeroth.
Result: The Horde tears itself apart for want of resources and bloodlust. Barring that, the Alliance builds it's strength, is given time to prepare, and destroys the Horde. Not to mention the fact that they would not have listened if he said that. The Horde needed war, and if he didn't give it to them, they'd find a Warchief that did.
2. Try to make peace.
Result: The Alliance doesn't agree to peace. Or, if the Alliance does, the Horde doesn't. Under the bloodlust, the Horde would never agree to peace, no matter what Orgrim said.
3. Take the world for the Horde and attempt to start over.
Result: The humans, dwarves and elves are wiped out, but the orcs survive. The bloodlust decreases over time, and the orcs start over on Azeroth.
Orgrim didn't have a lot of options. He chose what was best for his people. And... he eliminated the Shadow Council and took leadership back from the Burning Legion.
Ogrim had honor. He wasn't quite as admirable a character as Durotan, but he was a good Warchief who did what he believed to be best for his people. Just read Rise of the Horde. He was a good friend of Durotan, and he made Thrall into the leader he is today.
Would you have preferred the Horde to have stayed with Blackhand?
Post by
Adamsm
Not trying too. I just don't see Doomhammer as an honorable looking figure. He attacks a camp, hoping to kill all of the guards in thier sleep before they can get a chance to fight back.
Thats certaintly not honorable.
I think the lance death was suitive. A cowards death for a coward >.>.
Again, not trying to bash the thread, I just want to know why people consider Doomhammer to be some famed great veteren hero.
And I'm sure every battle with the Alliance, Lothar made sure to sound the horns before attacking... He did a sneak attack because the Horde didn't have the numbers to fight against the camp; he was focused on keeping his people alive and well.
As I said though, when it comes down to it, your favorite leader has the same sense of honour as Doomhammer: Keep your people alive at all costs, make sure they can live in peace for the rest of their lives, and keep them safe.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm not aware of the sneak attack in question. Was it in Rise of the Horde? Or Tides of Darkness?
Post by
Adamsm
I'm not aware of the sneak attack in question. Was it in Rise of the Horde? Or Tides of Darkness?
He's referring to Lord of the Clans... which he still hasn't read I'm guessing, when the new Horde hit the camps to free their breathren under the cloak of darkness instead of during the day and in the light... cause you know, when your force is smaller then the others, of course your going to fight 'honourably'.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm not aware of the sneak attack in question. Was it in Rise of the Horde? Or Tides of Darkness?
He's referring to Lord of the Clans... which he still hasn't read I'm guessing, when the new Horde hit the camps to free their breathren under the cloak of darkness instead of during the day and in the light... cause you know, when your force is smaller then the others, of course your going to fight 'honourably'.He wasn't trying to kill the guards in their sleep. His first and only goal was to get the orcs out of the camp. If guards came to the defense and died in the battle, so be it.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
1. They could have just stopped right there and lived. They brought this problem on themselves, children shouldnt have to die for them. And the Alliance wouldnt exist if he had not destroyed Stormwind, so he got himself into that jam.
2. Lothar said they sent several ambassodars to the Horde, only to die. Stormwind would have agreed to peace. And had the Horde not wanted peace, all they would need to do is listen to Orgrim's wish. The orcs today don't want peace with humans, but they accept it because of Thrall.
3. Yeah, they corrupt themselves and destroy a whole race nearly, so they fix it by destroying three more... hardly a noble cause.
Whenever I point out that Doomhammer is bad, someone just runs to "he had no choice".
Not really honorable.
The fact that you say all that... shows you have no real clue, even for reading Tides of Darkness.....
Post by
Skreeran
1. They could have just stopped right there and lived. They brought this problem on themselves, children shouldnt have to die for them. And the Alliance wouldnt exist if he had not destroyed Stormwind, so he got himself into that jam.Remember what happened when the orcs ran out of Draenei to kill on Draenor? They used up all their resources and turned on eachother. Orgrim saw this firsthand, and knew that the orcs needed war or they would kill eachother.
Plus, the orcs would never have stopped the war as long as there were enemies to destroy. If Orgrim had said to stop, they would have killed him, put Rend and/or Maim in charge, and kept on going.
And it was Blackhand that destroyed Stormwind.
2. Lothar said they sent several ambassodars to the Horde, only to die. Stormwind would have agreed to peace. And had the Horde not wanted peace, all they would need to do is listen to Orgrim's wish. The orcs today don't want peace with humans, but they accept it because of Thrall.They sent ambassadors in the First War. Blackhand (the Warchief) refused. With Llane dead and Stormwind destroyed, the Alliance would never have agreed to peace.
And neither would the Horde. If Orgrim had said that "it's peace time now!" The Horde would have killed him and put someone more warlike in his place.
3. Yeah, they corrupt themselves and destroy a whole race nearly, so they fix it by destroying three more... hardly a noble cause.
Whenever I point out that Doomhammer is bad, someone just runs to "he had no choice".
Not really honorable.What could he have done? He wasn't the one who suggested the demon blood. He abstained from it himself. All he could do was try and salvage the pieces and take a new, healthy world for his people. It was that or be destroyed.
Post by
HiVolt
Darkton, why exactly do you hate Orgrim? I mean, everyone who likes him has stated why, but you haven't said anything to the contrary...
I'm not trying to flame here, I'm honestly just curious.
You've said that he was not honorable. What is your definition of honorable?
How exactly is he "bad" to you?
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Monday
And it was Blackhand that destroyed Stormwind.
Doomhammer.
Wowwiki disagrees.
And if ambassadors were sent to the Horde during the First War, they were sent to Blackhand, as he was the Warchief...
Post by
Morec0
1) Out of all the possiblilites, it was the best shot.
2) Dark, you are sadly mistaken. Blackhand ruled the Horde when Stormwind was destroyed, he then made that his headquarters. Doomhammer killed him there, and that's where the Horde part of the story opens up.
3) And not only was it Blackhand, it was Gul'dan controlling Blackhand, and we all know what he was like.
4) And although its and assumption, its a good assumption. And exactly, they didn't care he killed the original warcheif, so why care if they killed him?
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
When it came time to free the orcs, he invaded all the camps in unfair ways when the guards had little chance to fight back, but when he dies from a cowards blow, honor is suddenly a big deal.So, if it had been reversed, and an Alliance 'hero' had done what he had done, hit and run tactics with a guerilla force against a superior army.. would you still say it was 'cowardly'?
Post by
Monday
Darkton, why exactly do you hate Orgrim? I mean, everyone who likes him has stated why, but you haven't said anything to the contrary...
I'm not trying to flame here, I'm honestly just curious.
You've said that he was not honorable. What is your definition of honorable?
How exactly is he "bad" to you?
I am sure I did in the past, but I'll say again.
For one, almost everything bad he ever did has been retconed into an attempt to turn him into a 'hero'.
One thing is that he killed Lothar originaly by inviting him to a peace meeting, then raining an army on him.
I really don't like how they changed it into a fair battle. Its just not right.
Another thing would be how Blizzard decided it would be fun to change him from a cowardly, opertunist, backstabbing orc; into some fair, noble figure.
When he was finally captured, and spared the death he deserved, he just ran the second he could and killed everyone he saw. He was even captured again, but was spared and let him live, only to run away again. Thats pretty pathetic.
When it came time to free the orcs, he invaded all the camps in unfair ways when the guards had little chance to fight back, but when he dies from a cowards blow, honor is suddenly a big deal.
I also am not trying to start a flame war, but thats clearly happening, so I rest my case.
Eh, but he is rescuing his people. Even if it is done dishonorably, it is still an honorable goal to rescue your people.
Post by
Morec0
Hmm, Dark, lets say humans were being held captive by aliens and you and a small army was all that could save them. Would you:
A) Charge blindly into battle
B) Sneak in "unhonorably" and free them
C) Give up and drink beer.
The last one's a joke.
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