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Why Paladin tanks don't like shields, and why they shouldn't complain.
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Post by
182246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
dhampir1989
Rumour has it you can click off any buffs...
But then you can't click on Rend.
Post by
rainkeltoia
The only place that our raid pally tank had mana issues WAS H HoR when I was healing her. Then she changed a few things up anyway and mana is a non issue now. Simple research. In other words... to sum up this thread... mana issues happen with undergear and new tanks, if you're running with an overgeared tank then its not your fault they are running outta mana b/c either 1) you're as overgeared for the place as they are and they need to pull more to give you something to do so you aren't standing there bored out of your mind (which is me in most heroics sigh) or 2) they need to do some more research and perhaps tweak themselves a little bit.
Post by
karlusdavius
The only place that our raid pally tank had mana issues WAS H HoR when I was healing her. Then she changed a few things up anyway and mana is a non issue now. Simple research. In other words... to sum up this thread... mana issues happen with undergear and new tanks, if you're running with an overgeared tank then its not your fault they are running outta mana b/c either 1) you're as overgeared for the place as they are and they need to pull more to give you something to do so you aren't standing there bored out of your mind (which is me in most heroics sigh) or 2) they need to do some more research and perhaps tweak themselves a little bit.
H HoR is completely different to all other instances. I find as a warrior i have
really
got to watch my rage and use my rage gaining abilities
very
conservatively. If not, then i can cause a wipe pretty easily with mobs being everywhere.
It's the same for a paladin. If there are only 2 mobs left, go easy on the juice consumption and be conservative. Not hard. Same for all tank's except DK's really.
I think we have summed it up. The actual test on the Paladin forums was naff and block mechanics still work even when shielded. Mana is not a problem if the paladin knows what he is doing, 5 mans or raids. If the paladin goes OOM and is under geared, it's just a case of learning ways to deal with it. Same for any other tanks starting out.
Post by
OscarDivine
For you oscar, this discussion is only relevent in "low difficult heroic 80's" where the paly's can overgear the place and take reduced amounts of damage.
this problem has already been thoroughly discredited in this thread.
Post by
SlowSide
I think I need to be enlightened here. Please give me an example of a situation where an OT can lose so much mana (as a result of PWS) while OTing that they cannot continue to generate threat.
Don't forget about
Rapture
either. This is pretty handy, you know and was designed with this kind of thing in mind.
It has already been pointed out that
Rapture
generates less mana than being healed for the same amount as the shield was for. This problem only gets bigger as the shields get stronger. I'll post an example of where it can be an issue, scroll down.
I get what you're saying, but I still can't really think of a situation where this is all... relevant. I have a well geared tank who is tanking ICC 10's right now. I've also tanked (MT and OT) every instance from Naxx up. I can't think of a single situation where what we're discussing becomes relevant.
Any time the OT is starved for mana / rage is bad, esp when they tanks have to trade the boss. Yes a taunt will pull them, but if you can not generate enough threat in the next few seconds they may return to the MT, that is a problem.
Lets take Festergut for example since he does AoE damage & must be traded. The MT will hold him until they have 8 stacks then the OT will take them, aproxx 120 second into the fight. A pally OT will burn 15% of their mana every 7.5 seconds as OT. This is after taking
DP
,
Replenishment
, and
JoW
into consideration & dropping
Holy Shield
for an empty GCD, I am also assuming
JoW
procs every swing just to make things simple, but that won't happen in the real world.
So at that rate a typical pally with 5600 mana will last 50 seconds to oom with no outside interaction.
If the pally is being shielded for 10k and it pops every time at 15 seconds & get re applied they would last 54 seconds.
If they were being healed for 10k in damage every 15 seconds they would last 72 seconds.
On festergut, lets say the pally OT just went oom at the above time & pots getting 4300 mana back. How long will that 4300 mana last under full rotation?
Being shielded it would last 41 seconds for a grand total of 95 seconds, leaving them either oom for the last 35 until they pull or forcing them to slow down IE don't Consecrate & make up the threat after pulling.
Being healed for the same amount they could go another 55 seconds for a total of 127 seconds of all out threat generation. Meaning no slowing down or going oom before the pull and less chance of the boss returning to the MT.
This is all "in a perfect world" because as we all know things are much messier, but it should illustrate that, all other things equal, being healed as a Pally OT is far better than being shielded. This extends to other fights such as Gormok, Lady Deathwhisper, etc, being healed as the OT will make them more reliable from more mana on reserve, and make their job easier than if they were shielded.
Post by
karlusdavius
Same for all other tanks except a DK.
Post by
OscarDivine
Slowside, the big assumption you're making (and this is a big one) is that there is no additional damage happening outside of what is absorbed by that shield.
Now, compare the amount of mana that truly is regained from the healing received (by way of Spiritual Attunement) and include mana received from Parries and blocks (from BoSanc).
For the mana received, it will end up being much greater than what you've got noted above.
As well, why is the OT doing a full rotation of threat generation in the first place when they don't have the boss. I understand that "every little bit of damage helps" but let's be honest here. It isn't necessary. The OT should be sitting back on threat, doing enough to maintain 2nd place on the meters, but not going balls to the walls to go OOM. During this time, his DP+Replenishment+JoW+Rapture would have been enough to top his mana off just fine.
Post by
dhampir1989
I can't remember the last time anything that couldn't strip s PW:S in one hit lasted 30 seconds, let alone 50.
This thread would have a purpose if it didn't use impossible situations.
I also note no GoPWS being factored in, but then, neither is anything that challenges the worst case scenario being posited as normal conditions.
Post by
SlowSide
Same for all other tanks except a DK.
Do Warriors & Bears generate rage from heals received? I honestly don't know since I don't play either.
Slowside, the big assumption you're making (and this is a big one) is that there is no additional damage happening outside of what is absorbed by that shield.
Now, compare the amount of mana that truly is regained from the healing received (by way of Spiritual Attunement) and include mana received from Parries and blocks (from BoSanc).
For the mana received, it will end up being much greater than what you've got noted above.
I did not so much assume that no other damage was happening to the OT, just that healing above & beyond the amount compared would be equal in both cases, meaning mana regen & time added to oom would be equal. Since it would be equal on both sides it can be eliminated for simplicity, which is what I did. IE if they are taking 20k of damage every 15 seconds, the second 10k not shielded would be healed equally. If you would like I can try to find a log from a real fight to use as an example.
The OT will not get any mana from BoSanc, and the MT should not have mana issues in the slightest. But yes any damage past the shielded amount would be healed & generate more mana. But the OT may not take enough AoE damage to pop the shield either. Such as lady deathwhisper, one frost bolt volley may not break the shield, and two might not land on the OT before he pulls her. That can be an issue depending on timing, IE if you down the last wave of adds quickly & bring down the last of her shields in the 10-20 seconds before the next wave the Pally OT will start the second phase low on mana, shielding them right off the bat would make the mana problem worse.
As well, why is the OT doing a full rotation of threat generation in the first place when they don't have the boss. I understand that "every little bit of damage helps" but let's be honest here. It isn't necessary. The OT should be sitting back on threat, doing enough to maintain 2nd place on the meters, but not going balls to the walls to go OOM. During this time, his DP+Replenishment+JoW+Rapture would have been enough to top his mana off just fine.
Maintaining second place isn't always a cake walk, if you want to use that logic why should the MT do their full rotation, why not do just enough to keep people from pulling? When the DPS in my raid is pumping out 6k+ DPS on a boss fight it's hard to keep up when not doing a full rotation. and again its a reliability thing, if I am just relaxing in second place & the third or fourth place crits on something within 5 or 10 seconds of when I should be pulling I could get bumped down to third. While those cases are more unlikely, it does happen. A better example might be in ToC there were times that the MT could get 2 hit, and if someone is unlucky enough to crit 5-6 seconds before or after that They may get one shot unless the OT was just behind the MT, and that does take a full, or very near full threat rotation, which for a pally is different from tank rotation since as I said not getting hit means not bothering with Holy Shield, which saves us 560 mana every 7.5s and leave an empty GCD but still leaves us burning mana quickly. Dropping consecrate from the rotation will help but is is 800-1200 threat per second we are loosing depending on gear, again that can be hard to make up for when the time comes for us to hold the boss or if the MT goes down.
I can't remember the last time anything that couldn't strip s PW:S in one hit lasted 30 seconds, let alone 50.
This thread would have a purpose if it didn't use impossible situations.
I also note no GoPWS being factored in, but then, neither is anything that challenges the worst case scenario being posited as normal conditions.
Wait... what ? I don't understand what you are saying, about one hit lasting 30 seconds vs 50?
Pally OT is not an impossible situation, I don't think you understood what I posted or I'm not understanding you about the time thing. I was just using 10k damage taken per 15 seconds vs shielded from AoE as an example.
You are right I did not include the heal from Glyphed PW:S. That would change the results assuming the full heal was used every time, but again since we are talking OT it may or may not, the same way that the AoE damage over 30 seconds may or may not be strong enough to pop the shield. IE on Festergut the AoE damage by the time the tanks switch should have tapered down, I don't remember how often it ticks, but for 10 mans with the proper stacks of innoculation it is only 500-700 a tick. Either way the the amount of mana gained at best would be about 100, meaning that sheilds could provide 210 man vs heals providing 500, so a 300 mana deficit instead of 400.
Post by
karlusdavius
@ SlowSide
OT in a raid means raid buffs. Arcane Intellect would increase your mana pool just like everyone else. Kings would also increase that. So Rapture will actually have an addition effect than the number you posted.
Most of the situations are odd and i understand that some numbers are used for ease. However, if you really want to prove this point here, lets see some really values. Make a profiler of an TotGC geared tank. Let's take a look at his mana pool with and without raid buffs.
That said, the essence of this was based on the fact that tanks can't block while shielded. This is wrong and was proven so by the guy who started the thread. So in essence, were gabbling about nothing important when we could be looking at Katy Perry in short skirts.
Post by
dhampir1989
Wait... what ? I don't understand what you are saying, about one hit lasting 30 seconds vs 50?
It is incredibly rare that PW:S will have full uptime, and these will be weak trash pulls which wont last 50s. The concept of being entirely shielded for enough time *and* max TPSing to OOM is meaningless.
Pally OT is not an impossible situation, I don't think you understood what I posted or I'm not understanding you about the time thing. I was just using 10k damage taken per 15 seconds vs shielded from AoE as an example.
A very bad one. When the OT is required to max TPS they will also be taking a lot more damage, such as tank swapping or cleave soaking (koralon being a major exception, but the OT does not require ANY action except moving).
You are right I did not include the heal from Glyphed PW:S. That would change the results assuming the full heal was used every time, but again since we are talking OT it may or may not, the same way that the AoE damage over 30 seconds may or may not be strong enough to pop the shield. IE on Festergut the AoE damage by the time the tanks switch should have tapered down, I don't remember how often it ticks, but for 10 mans with the proper stacks of innoculation it is only 500-700 a tick. Either way the the amount of mana gained at best would be about 100, meaning that sheilds could provide 210 man vs heals providing 500, so a 300 mana deficit instead of 400.
Except that there is a DoT that does far more than 10k/15s in order to get Inoculated, in order reduce the AoE to that level.
You are producing impossible situations that prove your point. Not one example you have given yet is a realistic one.
OT in a raid means raid buffs. Arcane Intellect would increase your mana pool just like everyone else. Kings would also increase that. So Rapture will actually have an addition effect than the number you posted. .
Not to mention Mana Stream and Replenishment...
So in essence, were gabbling about nothing important when we could be looking at Katy Perry in short skirts.
Indeed. Lets.
Post by
319099
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
*pokes head in room* (realizes nothing new has been said since page 1) *goes back over to the " Think you know everything" thread
AMG! ima coming wid choo!
Post by
SlowSide
It is incredibly rare that PW:S will have full uptime, and these will be weak trash pulls which wont last 50s. The concept of being entirely shielded for enough time *and* max TPSing to OOM is meaningless.
There are times that it will last 15-20 seconds before popping on the OT & then be reapplied, while not always the case, it can & does happen, This is more so on fights that only require one tank, but that was not the point of my post. It was just to illustrate that there is a larger difference than most think in the mana return of heals vs PW:S
A very bad one. When the OT is required to max TPS they will also be taking a lot more damage, such as tank swapping or cleave soaking (koralon being a major exception, but the OT does not require ANY action except moving).
On many tank swap fights the OT doesn't take a lot of damage before taking the boss, Gormok, Lady Deathwhisper, Saurfang. A 10k shield can last 10-15 seconds in these cases & cause the mana loss I am pointing out.
Except that there is a DoT that does far more than 10k/15s in order to get Inoculated, in order reduce the AoE to that level.
You are producing impossible situations that prove your point. Not one example you have given yet is a realistic one.
There is a DoT up until the spore bursts, what does that have to do with the AoE damage after that? The Dot does not continue on indefinitely. So they get healed getting mana, then shielded, no more mana. It is not impossible for someone to take less than 10k damage over a given 15 second period in a boss fight, even the OT.
Not to mention Mana Stream and Replenishment...
I did include Replenishment, but as I hardly ever raid with a Shaman I didn't remember mana spring totem, I also don't know that they will have that out 100% of the time as opposed to another totem. But again this is all getting away from the point I am trying to make, which I am not doing a very good job of presenting.
@ SlowSide
OT in a raid means raid buffs. Arcane Intellect would increase your mana pool just like everyone else. Kings would also increase that. So Rapture will actually have an addition effect than the number you posted.
Most of the situations are odd and i understand that some numbers are used for ease. However, if you really want to prove this point here, lets see some really values. Make a profiler of an TotGC geared tank. Let's take a look at his mana pool with and without raid buffs.
That said, the essence of this was based on the fact that tanks can't block while shielded. This is wrong and was proven so by the guy who started the thread. So in essence, were gabbling about nothing important when we could be looking at Katy Perry in short skirts.
As a BE Pally I have 5644 base mana with gear I have 5944 mana. BE have the highest base mana, other classes fall in the 5500-5600 range I used. With the right combo of raid buffs I have 7000 mana. Meaning 140 mana returned from rapture vs the112 I used in the calculations. With Glyphed PW:S the average return could be up to 140 from Rapture + 100 from Spiritual Attunement again 240 mana from a 10k shield vs 500 mana from a 10k heal.
Please understand what I an trying to say:
Disc shields DO hurt mana regen of a pally, that is a plain cold fact, no matter how you cut it Rapture does not return an equal amount as a heal would. In most cases the lesser mana regen isn't an issue, even in
some
cases where it is a change in play style can
usually
fix the problem.
I am trying to get Disc priests to understand why Pally tanks are complaining and that there there is merit to what they are saying in SOME cases
. Such as when they are OT or leveling from 40-71. In those cases a Disc priest can make a Pally's job easier or harder depending on how liberal they are with shields.
Post by
319099
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Extreme cases. It was proven that when you are absorbed, you can still block. Block mechanics still work. You will gain mana from Dodge, Parry and Block. You shouldn't be doing full rotations as an OT. You will have enough threat to stay second without really making much of an effort.
You don't even have to worry about using masses of mana when OT'ing.
If you are worth your salt as a tank, you should be hit capped. You taunt should very rarely miss.
Post by
dhampir1989
On many tank swap fights the OT doesn't take a lot of damage before taking the boss, Gormok, Lady Deathwhisper, Saurfang. A 10k shield can last 10-15 seconds in these cases & cause the mana loss I am pointing out.
Why are you bothering to generate threat on boss-switch fights when you aren't tanking?
This is what I was saying.
The OP posits situations that are either mechanically untenable or require gross stupidy on the OTs part.
Post by
OscarDivine
amg we're going in circles. the REAL question is, exactly where does Katy Perry exist on the "Hot-Crazy" regression analysis?
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