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Self Pleasurement (Mature)
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Post by
Murrdurr
Are you really going to deny it though?
Deny that I masturbate? Of course I am. Because I don't. I have my various reasons: my religious understanding of sexuality, my philosophical understanding of sexuality, my understanding of the commitment I've made to my girlfriend, etc. Do I know if anyone else has these same convictions? No. But do I know for a fact that there's a least one person in this world who doesn't masturbate? Yes.
@Pyreanor, I'm not the one pulling universal statements out of thin air, but you're calling
me
stiff-necked?
I shall just leave this here!
It was an interesting read, though I did disagree with a lot of it.
What is your religion HSR? I only ask because I thought you might have mentioned you're christian? If so the bible does not really say masturbation is a sin, I know it says (loosely) that if you fantasize about a women its adultery, and obviously if you masturbate while thinking of the women it would be the same thing. But what if you just do a quickie without thinking about anything sexual? (which is possible, hello morning wood) If youre not christian well I guess that argument does not stand.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I'm Roman Catholic.
Here's the religious dimension of my views:
By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
Post by
Treskol
I know it says (loosely) that if you fantasize about a women its adultery,
Does it? That's ridiculous, really.
Its illogical for the bible to say you will never fantasize about another women.
Let's say you have a girlfriend or a wife. You love her, are more than content with her, and wouldn't let them go for anyone or anything.
You got to a nightclub / pub or somewhere similar. You see a stunningly attractive women, how are you supposed to react? You may (and probably will) deny it, but when you have been in a relationship, no matter how healthy it is, you will have fancied / fantasized about another women.
Off-topic, I know, but was just ... baffled by it, really.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
how are you supposed to react?
By viewing them as a person created in the image and likeness of God (or at least as a human person worthy of my respect, if you don't want to wax religious), and not an object of sexual desire.
That's how I react.
Post by
Treskol
I worded that badly.
I didn't call into question that they aren't worthy of my respect, or that they are only an object of sexual desire, and taking masturbation out of this, (cause really I meant it more for emotions and thoughts than for masturbating) it is human nature to fall for more than one girl / boy.
Is the bible saying that human nature, if not forbidden, is frowned upon?
Also, merely out of curiosity, what's your stance on the bible? Do you take the stories and gospels as literal writings, where they are written without a moral or without exaggeration, or that they are morals, teaching Christians how to be better people? (Adam and Eve, The Good Samaritan and the Fish and Wine stories spring to mind)
Also, do you believe Jesus did the miracles that was claimed?
Post by
Murrdurr
I know it says (loosely) that if you fantasize about a women its adultery,
Does it? That's ridiculous, really.
Its illogical for the bible to say you will never fantasize about another women.
Matt 5:28-29 (NIV) "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
@HSR, I respect that decision then. I could go into some what-ifs but I wont.
@Treskol, It's pretty hard to take everything in the Bible literal, I think of it more as a guideline on what a christian should be about, a true christian. I believe in God but do I follow everything the bible says? Not at all, I have used drugs, sex before marriage, and even the fantasizing about women while married, among other things but I still believe in God and pray for my sins every so often (sounds like a slacker but hey we arent perfect) And I will honestly say I am not even close to being the person to handle a religious debate so I'll just leave that discussion as that.
Post by
Treskol
I'm probably much further away to holding a religious debate, which is why I asked in questions :)
Honestly, when the bible was first created, I'd say that the basic guidelines were a lot easier to maintain than today. For example;
There is so much pressure on a teenager to lose his virginity before he leaves school / college, and he isn't going to be married when he does it.
Drugs, well people don't see them as 'dangerous' as such anymore, they see them as a way to pass the time and have a decent laugh. Quite scary, when you think about it.
The fantasizing about women when married became a lot harder to maintain (for lack of a better word) when people decided to wear clothes that gradually became more and more erotic, until the point where it is basically a thong and bra.
Honestly, I believe that while the stories aren't true, and are morals, they have had their meaning become harder and harder to live by. Gay people being frowned upon by Christianity sums up for me that humans change, but the bible can't, and this makes more and more young people turn away from Christianity.
Post by
pelf
Oh, well if it's driven by dogma, that's a lot less interesting.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Oh, well if it's driven by dogma, that's a lot less interesting.
I have my various reasons:
my religious understanding of sexuality
, my philosophical understanding of sexuality, my understanding of the commitment I've made to my girlfriend, etc.
I thought that was clear from the beginning :P
Post by
vincistis
Oh gawd, this thread if crazy but.. I have had guild chats worse. Someone actually explained it with full detail and mental pictures. Gotta love social guilds.
Post by
451639
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
wolfeyoung
The only bad thing about masturbation is that you don't spread the joy. Sex is usually better and
makes more than one person happy
.
Ha! That depends on how good the other person is in bed. There are people that have no clue what to do in bed and are just boring as f**k to, well, f**k!
Post by
vincistis
That, and it could be r@pe, didnt spell since IDK about what not to type in wowhead.
Post by
451639
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
wolfeyoung
Question HSR:
If masturbation is wrong, but sex with your wife is good, then, what if your wife jerks you off? Is that wrong?
Post by
Murrdurr
Question HSR:
If masturbation is wrong, but sex with your wife is good, then, what if your wife jerks you off? Is that wrong?
Good question, I would say that would be ok since its your wife. I mean as long as its with youre partner wheres the foul at?
Post by
pezz
Question HSR:
If masturbation is wrong, but sex with your wife is good, then, what if your wife jerks you off? Is that wrong?
Canadian Catholic bishops are cautioning married couples to not get too focused on sexual acts other than intercourse, calling them a potential misuse of sex that ignore God’s intentions.
A pastoral letter released this week by the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops calls on married couples to lead “chaste” lives — not meaning “celibate” but approaching sex with “purity of mind as well as body” and respecting the dignity of the other person.
“That is why the sexual act has to be unitive and procreative and why some kinds of activity are not chaste,” the letter said. “Though pleasure may be present, some acts are a misuse of sex when they fall short of what God intended.
Sauce
If she does it often, and it supplants procreative (is that a word? My spellchecker says it is so I'm running with that) sex, then it is.
The Catholic Church's official stance on sexuality is heavily teleological. The reproductive organs (in the mind of the Church, anyway. The book I linked above maintains that there are legitimate sociological uses for the genitals other than procreation, but that's not even accepted by much of the scientific community, much less the Church) have a pretty specific function: makin' babies. If his wife jerks him off, ain't no babies gonna be made. Hence, the reproductive organs are being used for something that is not reproduction (of non-bastard (used in the strict technical sense of the word)) chilluns. This is technically a misuse of those organs.
Edit: Obviously a lot of this only applies if you accept the theological and philosophical tradition of Roman Catholicism. Most protestant denominations, which have little to no academic history (there's no Lutheran Aquinas, after all) are probably not going to hold these beliefs. Typically protestantism takes some specific part of the bible too literally and way out of context (in this case, the go-go gadget marriage part) and just hangs on that one small point. What you do in those marriages is probably less of a concern, as long as it doesn't have a touch of the gay involved.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
A small addendum to pezz's post:
The Catholic Church's stance is indeed heavily teleological in regard to sex, however there's a dual end: fidelity and fecundity. The sexual acts exist both for "makin' babies" and to more intimately unite the couple.
To specifically address the question, the act in question would only be permissible if used as foreplay to sex.
Post by
475128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Laihendi
This thread makes me aroused.
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