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Post by
battletank
I've been looking up the top ret paladins on my server lately trying to get an eye on gear and whatnot, and i've noticed several of them are wearing pieces like belt of the pitpiless killer and vest of calamitous fate, and acidmaw treads (all heroic of course). From my understanding though agility is next to useless for a paladin.
So why are top end ret paladins wearing leather agility pieces?
Post by
MasterOutlaw
Because they have a large amount of crit and raw attack power. Depending upon what kind of plate gear they see drop, the leather pieces will provide a much better gain in DPS.
Post by
Quest
Agility is next to useless for paladins? Who told you this? Go kick that guy in the head.
Post by
Anarchy
Blizzard fail at itemizing properly, this is why you see hunters and rogues in their 'intended gear' with 45-50% crit unbuffed, and warriors/death knights/paladins with 30-35% unbuffed.
So in order to maximize potential DPS, you'll need to dip in to some 'rogue gear', i.e items with agility.
Lets compare two items of identical item level.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47431
, socketed with 3 x bold cardinals and enchanted with powerful stats this chest provides:
4.75% crit
333 attack power
4.04% melee haste
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47086
same as above provides:
0.19% crit
524 attack power
4.04% melee haste
2.62% hit rating
191 attack power and 2.62% hit or 4.75% crit? I'll take the leather please.
Also of note, paladins gain more crit chance per point of agility than any other class, though I heard death knights get more, not 100% sure on that.
10 agility - 0.19% crit for a paladin, it's 0.12% for a rogue.
51 agility - 1% crit for a paladin.
Post by
svirve
Blizzard fail at itemizing properly, this is why you see hunters and rogues in their 'intended gear' with 45-50% crit unbuffed, and warriors/death knights/paladins with 30-35% unbuffed.
So what you're saying is that you want all the STR on your gear to be agility instead so you also can have 45-50% crit?
Or do you want to keep all that STR and just have all the agility, a rogue pays item points to get, for free?
Did it ever occur to you that you don't gain AP from agility like rogues and hunters do?
Rogues and hunters have a generally higher crit rate since first of all it's more important for them to crit.
Secondly they gain AP from agility, thus it is of a higher priority to get more agility and as a "bonus" they get crit, also rogues and hunters gain the least amount of crit per agi (shared with shamans & druids).
Rogues only gain 1 AP per agility while paladins gain 2.3 AP per strength, i'll trade you 15% crit for 1.3 more AP per agi on my rogue.
Blizzard did a wonderful job itemizing items in WotLK, i've actually never been more satisfied with it. There are pieces for each class, spec and playstyle. Now people who say otherwise are just ignorant or too stupid to look properly for it.
Post by
Anarchy
You don't understand what I meant.
I mean that they have four offensive stats, while plate classes get three.
Rogue item has:
Agility = crit and AP
Crit rating
hit/arp/haste/expertise
Attack power
Plate item has:
Strength
Crit rating
Hit/arp/haste/expertise
Plate items usually have slightly more attack power, but much less crit.
Did you check my armory? Do you really think I would be in that level of gear all the while thinking I gain attack power from agility?
Why do you think many plate DPSers take rogue items? I've done a lot of testing on target dummies and in raids, I have a mix of strength/agility items which I can switch around for more crit or attack power, the items are the same item level
When I put on all the strength items, I gain around 400 attack power, but lose 8% crit, and this drops my DPS by about 200-300 on the dummies.
It's important for all classes to crit, why do you think hunters and rogues generally beat plate DPS on single target stationary fights? They have much more crit and similar levels of attack power.
Post by
svirve
You don't understand what I meant.
I mean that they have four offensive stats, while plate classes get three.
Rogue item has:
Agility = crit and AP
Crit rating
hit/arp/haste/expertise
Attack power
Plate item has:
Strength
Crit rating
Hit/arp/haste/expertise
Indeed i misunderstood you.
As paladins have less stats they also have more of each. I dont get how you sorted them though, not every plate item has str, crit and either hit/arp/haste/exp. Just to take the one you linked as an example it has str, hit and haste. I'm guessing it wasn't an intentional way of sorting it but still, one has to ask, to learn.
Agi = AP yes
Str = 2.3x AP
This is what it seems to me that you keep forgetting.
Plate items usually have slightly more attack power, but much less crit.
Lets take the two items you linked as an example and compare them for a rogue vs a paladin.
Rogue gains from the leather piece:
309 AP
3.514% crit
3.11% haste
Paladin gains from the plate piece:
363.4 AP
2.62% hit
3.11% haste
That 363.4 AP the paladin gains nullifies two of the rogues offensive stats making your 4v3 argument kinda moot.
2.62hit>3.514%crit, if you can't hit it you can't crit it and with rogues sometimes being forced to gem hit because of crit caps it's a very valid point.
Now haste is a near worthless stat to a paladin. But then again that could have been replaced with something else, maybe crit? That would give us 2.22% crit instead for the same amount of item points.
Now i know that's not what is on that piece of gear but we're not discussing two pieces here, we're discussing general itemization and i'm of the oppinion that it's good and you're of the oppinion it's unfair, am i right?
Did you check my armory? Do you really think I would be in that level of gear all the while thinking I gain attack power from agility?
What on this earth is your armory going to tell me?
How much IQ you have? How your general understanding for the game and it's mechanics are? How well you understand gear priorities for classes other than your own (or your own as well for that matter)? Now i'm not bashing you here but your armory tells me about as much as a pile of dung unless i wanted to know how many bosses of ICC you cleared so far.
Why do you think many plate DPSers take rogue items? I've done a lot of testing on target dummies and in raids, I have a mix of strength/agility items which I can switch around for more crit or attack power, the items are the same item level
When I put on all the strength items, I gain around 400 attack power, but lose 8% crit, and this drops my DPS by about 200-300 on the dummies.
Cuz rouge ar gud dps?
There is a great difference between circumstantially bad itemization and generally bad itemization.
When ulduar was flavor of the month people were whining their asses of about ArP on gear. There are plenty of plate pieces without ArP on them to be looted in ulduar.
How big are your samples on the dummies? Two minutes or two hours? There's no hidden meaning to that question i'm asking since generally people will go bash a dummy twice with wings up. Then they bash a dummy three times with wings up and complain how they lost DPS the other time around.
It's important for all classes to crit, why do you think hunters and rogues generally beat plate DPS on single target stationary fights? They have much more crit and similar levels of attack power.
It is NOT important for all classes to crit. That statement actually gives me reason to think that you do not know
why
it is imperetive for a rogue to crit.
Paladins could do just well without crits at all if their AP gain was boosted, but unfortunately even then they would want crit. Cause stats complement eachother, more AP=bigger crits, more crit=less need for AP since a bigger percentage of attacks will do double damage.
The reason as to why a rogue HAS to crit are talents like
this
,
this
and
this
.
There is only two things a paladin has, that's AoW and that would only require a 8% crit rate for it to be used to full potential during a raid setting. And RV which would require a ~25% crit rate.
And then you get 11%(29% to judgements) crit from talents, rogues get 5%.
Post by
Quest
Korruptive, look at what youve done.
Post by
Anarchy
Agi = AP yes
Str = 2.3x AP
This is what it seems to me that you keep forgetting.
I understand this, but rogue items with sockets are very good because they come with attack power, and you can socket pure strength to get even more attack power all the while getting a double dipping of crit from agility and crit rating, while having only slightly less attack power than the strength counterpart, for example.
Plate
vs
Leather
Let's assume the expertise vs hit rating have the same item points spent on them.
Plate socketed with 3 bold cardinals provides 296.7 attack power.
Leather socketed with 3 bold cardinals provides 240 attack power, sure you lose 56 AP but gain 1.35% crit, seems very worth it to me.
What I am arguing is that 'rogue items' shouldn't even be comparable to their plate counterparts, and many rogue items especially with sockets are very appealing to plate classes,
What on this earth is your armory going to tell me?
How much IQ you have? I get your point but it just seemed a bit ridiculous to assume I think I gain AP from agility.
Cuz rouge ar gud dps?
There is a great difference between circumstantially bad itemization and generally bad itemization.
How big are your samples on the dummies? Two minutes or two hours? There's no hidden meaning to that question i'm asking since generally people will go bash a dummy twice with wings up. Then they bash a dummy three times with wings up and complain how they lost DPS the other time around.
I get that, and I agree that a lot of plate is itemized nicely, I guess I am just jealous that rogues and hunters get more crit naturally but I am still doing more DPS with 'rogue items' than the strength counterparts.
Also, my tests were 30 minutes each, and I tested about 5 different gear setups about 10 times or so, some tests were identical, but generally the highest DPS tests had the most crit chance, and the lowest one had the highest attack power but the least crit.
It is NOT important for all classes to crit. That statement actually gives me reason to think that you do not know
why
it is imperetive for a rogue to crit.
Sure it's important, more so to other classes than others because of talents and crit multipliers, but the more you crit for a paladin the more RV damage you do, but just because it's better for them doesn't mean it's not important for paladins.
Post by
pezz
I think what svirve was saying is that ret paladins don't have many mechanics that work on crit. RV doesn't require much crit, AoW doesn't, and besides from that if I had enough strength to make my stuff hit twice as hard but never crit except the bear minimum required for my procs to work correctly (or even if there was some talent that guaranteed exactly one crit before you used exo and one to keep RV rolling which could leave me at 0% crit if I liked), I wouldn't give a damn. I might even like it because it would make my tps and dps more consistent. Meanwhile, just to use an example, a cat druid with this set up would be tearing his hair out for lack of combo points.
Post by
svirve
I understand this, but rogue items with sockets are very good because they come with attack power, and you can socket pure strength to get even more attack power all the while getting a double dipping of crit from agility and crit rating, while having only slightly less attack power than the strength counterpart, for example.
Plate
vs
Leather
Let's assume the expertise vs hit rating have the same item points spent on them.
Plate socketed with 3 bold cardinals provides 296.7 attack power.
Leather socketed with 3 bold cardinals provides 240 attack power, sure you lose 56 AP but gain 1.35% crit, seems very worth it to me.
Indeed that is a great trade, just looking at quests latest stat weights for ret the crit is worth 36% more.
And i get were you're coming from now, leather gear is indeed better for a paladin than a plate counterpart would be. Earlier i was more of the impression that you were saying that leather gear should get nerfed and plate gear buffed because it was unfair itemization.
Sure it's important, more so to other classes than others because of talents and crit multipliers, but the more you crit for a paladin the more RV damage you do, but just because it's better for them doesn't mean it's not important for paladins.
The problem is that RV doesn't stack (last i checked atleast i usually dont go near ret), so if you're critting more than once every 8 sec you're loosing damage to ticks being lost or overwriting a superior RV with a weaker one.
Now ofcourse there is the chance of you applying greater RVs but you'll still be loosing out on ticks.
What I am arguing is that 'rogue items' shouldn't even be comparable to their plate counterparts, and many rogue items especially with sockets are very appealing to plate classes,
What on this earth is your armory going to tell me?
How much IQ you have? I get your point but it just seemed a bit ridiculous to assume I think I gain AP from agility.
I didn't actually assume that you thought you gained AP from agility. It was more of a "rogues get agi from AP and you dont" comment.
I get that, and I agree that a lot of plate is itemized nicely, I guess I am just jealous that rogues and hunters get more crit naturally but I am still doing more DPS with 'rogue items' than the strength counterparts.
Also, my tests were 30 minutes each, and I tested about 5 different gear setups about 10 times or so, some tests were identical, but generally the highest DPS tests had the most crit chance, and the lowest one had the highest attack power but the least crit.
You shouldn't be so jealous actually, when you are
forced
to gem hit because you're crit capped it's not that funny anymore.
Sure it's important, more so to other classes than others because of talents and crit multipliers, but the more you crit for a paladin the more RV damage you do, but just because it's better for them doesn't mean it's not important for paladins.
I'll agree that it's important to a different degree, but a paladin wouldn't need more crit that ~25% for his abilities relying on crit to be used to their full potential. So if you could then keep your crit at 25% and take other stats instead and get a DPS increase it would be the best thing to do. For a rogue the abilities need 76% crit in order to be used to their full potential. And to even get that you'd need to be hit hard capped.
Post by
Anarchy
So now we agree, great.
In a nutshell I guess, some 'rogue items' are good for ret, some are not, you just need to know how to compare them to find out if one is better or not, the problem is rogue items shouldn't be appealing at all to us, it's annoying for both parties when I want to bid/roll on a 'rogue item' because it's also great for me.
But one more thing:
The problem is that RV doesn't stack (last i checked atleast i usually dont go near ret), so if you're critting more than once every 8 sec you're loosing damage to ticks being lost or overwriting a superior RV with a weaker one.
Now ofcourse there is the chance of you applying greater RVs but you'll still be loosing out on ticks.
It does indeed stack (though it is a hidden stack, not overwritten), and with 2/5 tier 9 bonus I am often seeing massive ticks, I think I had a 30k RV crit tick on twins in toc 25, it works exactly like deep wounds.
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