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Owlkin Frenzy...useful?
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Post by
hashmel
so last night i did a little digging on owlkin frenzy...
Patch 3.1.0
(2009-04-14):
Is now properly considered an Enrage effect. Now also does not trigger from spell hits, only physical ranged and melee attacks.
*Change reverted - Owlkin Frenzy still procs off of any damage type, including spell/AoE.
seems they did a stealth removal of the nerf in a hotfix, not sure when that was, but
Owlkin Frenzy
can proc off all manner of damage taken and has no ICD
druid base mana is 3496, 2% of that is 69, 69 mana every 2 secs OF is up = 345 mana per proc, isn't much by itself but that's about the same as the mana return from a crit with 17k+ mana and combined with wisd/mana spring, innervate, crit returns, and replenishment and mana shouldn't be an issue
while its uptime is anything but 100% in a raid environment if your mana isn't an issue the talent choices to invest your last 4-5 talent points aren't all that impressive
Brambles
buffs a 3 min cd and the thorns on the tank/s will be a bit stronger but the dps gain is negligable
Gale Winds
is a noticable dps boost but only in aoe situations and in most circumstances doesn't benefit boss fights
Improved Insect Swarm
isn't a significant dps boost, 3% dmaage boost to an ability that accounts for maybe 30% of your dps is only a 0.9% dps boost
generally these provide such a small boost to boss dps that you could simply not spend your last 4-5 talents at all and probably not even notice
Owlkin Frenzy
is a moderate chance to increase all your damage by 10%, regain a small amount of mana, and become immune to pushback for a duration and can proc off even the silliest of things
)bosses with aoe, random application of dots, "fire" that can be ran through for a small amount of damage without fear of dying, insignificant adds, or a damaging aura can all proc this which when it's not active is about the same as an almost unnoticeable boost such as from above talents and while active is a very noticeable 10% boost to dps and some mana regen for the duration)
with that in mind i'm wondering if replacing check #3 would be ideal
3. if you need more mana regen invest in dreamstate as needed
to something along the lines of
after covering both a knockback and mana regen, as needed, invest 2-3 points in owlkin frenzy
looking for feedback on the subject
BOOMKIN
53/0/11+5
is the basic blueprint for a good boomkin
if you need typhoon for soloing, occasional pvp, certain fights (gluth), or just in case put one of the spare points into it
if you need mana regen invest in intensity as needed
if you need more mana regen invest in dreamstate as needed
if you need more aoe dps invest in gale winds
if you have nothing left to invest in put the leftovers in imp IS or brambles for a slight single target dps boost
Glyphs
Moonfire
is a must for pve as you'll always have at least 1 target and it's easily the best single target dps boost
Focus:
both an aoe and single target glyph, makes SF safer to use if you've yet to get the hang of the range and also increases the damage
Starfall:
both an aoe and single target glyph, reduces the cd by 1/3
Insect Swarm:
sacrifices the 3% miss debuff in favor of 30% more IS damage
Starfire:
less time spent refreshing MF meaning more time spent melting face
Innervate:
if you have no mana your dps will drop to zero, good for beginning boomkins with mana issues
If you've specced Typhoon it's for a useful knockback or @#$%ing off the tank, in an aoe situation another Hurricane is a much better call and glyphing out of the knockback ruins any attempt to annoy the tank making glyph of Typhoon a poor choice for either reason
if the result is OF being worth taking i may opt for 2 OF + 2 GW + 1 Typhoon or 2 OF + 3 IIS/brambles
Post by
393352
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hashmel
only if it's the kind of fire or adds that only tickles, other than that there's unavoidable random damage from dots, raidwide damage, etc
the big thing is
after mana regen and a knockback, as needed, are covered
none of the remaining talents are very significant and you could go without spending your last 4-5 talent points without a noticable difference
, which is basically the same as when OF isn't active but with a whopping +10% dps, pushback immunity, and some mana regen when it is
been on the ptr screwing with it and i have to say i'm liking it
Post by
hymer
It's kinda situational, isn't it? Brambles you know what you get, even if it's very little... I dunno, if your guild is running Patchwerk all the time for the Achievement, OF wouldn't do any good. Malygos might proc Frenzy a lot.
Stating the obvious here, I'm afraid. But I'll look forward to seeing what you find out.
Post by
hashmel
yeah on strictly patchwerk type fights it's not gonna do much which is about the same as your other options
but on sapph (can run through the blizzard without much damage), about 2/3 of uld bosses, some heroic bosses (BK P3), some TotC 10/25 fights, the new ICC dungeons, and many more situations it has plenty of opportunities to proc for some major dps as apposed to the negligable ~0.9% dps boost from other options
the player would have to be smart about it, putting their hand in the proverbial fire without falling face-first into it or burdening the healers where they focus on you too much for the greater good
intentionally taking some small, continuous damage while avoiding heavy, slow hitting damage is the key
Post by
hashmel
seems the damage has to originate from a mob to proc OF, sat in some lava for 20 mins without a proc, wonder if i can catch a naxx pug on the ptr this week to dance in sapph's blizzard and watch noth's dots
Post by
DrDrako
Improved Insect Swarm
isn't a significant dps boost, 3% dmaage boost to an ability that accounts for maybe 30% of your dps is only a 0.9% dps boost
Wrong. Imp IS isnt a boost to the dot itself. its a buff to wrath and starfire while you have IS and MF up, respectively.
now, idk exactly where you got the 30% from, but based on this
simultationcraft
, supplied by Celd on an earlier post, IS and MF take up ~10% of your damage, each, with wrath making up ~45% and Starfire making up ~35%, percentages taken visually and loosely via the pie chart.
a 3% boost on your biggest source of damage, and a 3% bonus crit rate on your second for doing something you should already be doing, is not too shabby imo.
and about OF. the proc isnt as reliable as you would think, so you'd
probably
have to get hit 3-4 times before you see an actual proc. not favorable in a raid environment.
Post by
hashmel
i never stated that i was referring to IIS increasing IS's damage
now i wasn't sure on the exact percentage contribution by wrath admittedly which is the reason for throwing out that 30% but even with wrath contributing 45% of a boomkin's dps IIS only increases your total dps by ~1.35% (a bit difficult to judge the gain via SFs)
getting SF to crit isn't all that hard, you should easily be over 30% crit + 3% from IFF + 30% from eclipse and you've got at the bare minimum a 63% SF crit chance, the higher your crit chance the less valuable more crit is in the big picture
so IIS = ~1.35% dps boost which isn't far off from my original assumption of 0.9% and once again you could not spend those talents at all and wouldn't see a big difference but a 10% dps boost for maybe 1/5 of the fight, that's a 2% dps gain plus some mana regen
if you have OF up during hero/lust it's even better, during hero/ust you'd spam SF and ideally plan to be on a lunar eclipse, once again the higher your crit the less attractive more crit is in the big picture, and a 10% damage increase during that would beat 3% crit
take BK P3 for example, you pop hero/lust then and everyone is taking some damage, damage procs OF making it very likely to have hero/lust and OF up making it quite synergistic
i'm not swearing by OF being the way to go but my goal is to distinguish whether it is indeed worth consideration and as it stands i believe it warrents at least 1 talent point, did wonders for me in H FoS this morning if i may say so
Post by
Celdhyrean
iIS is generally counted at ~2% dps increase for 3 talent points.
OF is constantly lower because, as nice as some encounters sound, there is mostly no place where it really procs from everything that damages us. Rest of the arguments in the precious thread.
Post by
Kaitain
I find 2 problems with OF:
The main problem i found with it is that unavoidable damage tends to not proc OF at all. Auras that tick on the whole raid. Targetted DoTs that tick on specific players. The initial application can proc OF, but the ticks don't seem to proc it, so the uptime is tragically low.
The point of raid encounters in normally to avoid all avoidable damage. I'd rather play that way tbh and not worry about the last 1% of DPS.
____________
On a side note... my god does this talent need a rework. It's bad even in PvP. The pushback protection when being hit is nearly pointless (you'll probably have Nature's Focus anyways which gives large pushback protection for all the spells you are likely to cast while being hit). The damage boost is nearly pointless given the situations you will be in - moonkins do most of their lethal damage in PvP in the moments they are
not
being hit. The regen is only stronger than Dreamstate if you have 50% uptime i.e. you are being nearly constantly meleed. As such the regen is way way too little to be useful.
All round, a disappointing and broken talent if you ask me.
Post by
hymer
Kaitian:
Just spoke with DrDrako in a thread on leveling, who vouches for its usefulness (during leveling, that is). When I leveled my boomer, it didn't have mana regen, but you bet I liked it all the same (mostly during overpulls, once or twice I think it helped save 5-man groups).
That said, I'd like to find a use for it at 80 (since it seems to me to be a lore hallmark of moonkin that they get angry and make things go boom in the night), which is why I'm looking forward to seeing what hashmel's experiments result in. Even if we think it won't be any good, no good reason not to get empirical if you have the time and inclination.
Post by
Kaitain
True. I meant disappointing and broken in endgame PvE and PvP. I should have been more specific. It's rather good for levelling and farming.
I do support an empirical breakdown of it also, and welcome the thread. I think any analysis of it should start with a
full
listing of which raid damage effects proc it and which don't, and which damage ticks proc it and which don't. From there you need to look at how often on average those effects happen to a raiding chicken, bearing in mind that actions like moving specifically to stand in some fire will almost always be a DPS loss (unless you can do it at the exact moment you need to refresh DoTs).
Post by
hashmel
good to see some people's personal opinions on this, i'll try to get in a naxx group this week (as there're a large number of encounters to test it on and being lower end content i can focus more on OF without risk of death which would halt my inquiries)
the idea is indeed to stick your hand in the fire when refreshing dots or when you're already forced to move, will try making some time to try it out but for now i have classes i'd better go to so long as i'm paying for them
Post by
murakaz
In general, Frenzy is a filler talent for those who don't need regen or are allergic to Typhoon. It's slightly better than Brambles and Genesis, but it's usually not worth very much.
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