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BoL and balance
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Post by
OscarDivine
omg guys stop feeding the troll. He's trolled the priest forums and he left because we all agreed that he had no idea what he was talking about. just stop.
Post by
blademeld
If it was that easy to get rid of him he'd be gone by now.
I think the reason why he's staying in the paladin forums is because he has a paladin alt and has a misconception.
Post by
179128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
omg guys stop feeding the troll. He's trolled the priest forums and he left because we all agreed that he had no idea what he was talking about. just stop.
I have to admit I feel honored to have my very own forum stalker. Do you want a cookie?
One thing though, please try to brush up on your skills. Now that I got my own stalker the least I can expect is that you try not to be such a pathetic excuse for a troll. Thanks.
Chain heal/PW:Shield/Rejuvenation > BoL for more than 2 targets
That's how, and that has been the point throughout most of the thread by other paladins.
Others and I have asked if you could come up with an alternative for paladins for raid healing but you have ignore them.
NO. Repeating it doesn't make it true. Each Rejuvenation cast, each PW:S, each cast that you do not use for tank healing as Priest/Druid/Shaman will SEVERELY reduce your tank healing capabilities. Those skills are fundamentally different from BoL and in no way superior. Quite the opposite actually.
If you say the Priest has the time to throw a PW:S at the raid and say that counts for raid healing then you also have to say that the Paladin has the time to throw FoL at the raid (without using BoL).
Comparing that to BoL doesn't even remotely make sense. How can anybody not see that ?
And I will not come up with "alternatives" for raid healing. As I explained in detail BoL has nothing to do with raid healing. It mirrors all your heals to one single person. By definition it can never ever make you a raid healer since it will only heal 1 guy. What it does is make you a better tank healer because it will allow you to heal 2 tanks at once or 1 tank and the raid. Huge difference.
I will also not talk about options that would make Paladins viable raid healers. This is simply not the topic here. Go create your own thread if you want to talk about Paladins and raid healing. This one is about tank healing.
Post by
179128
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Brique
I will also not talk about options that would make Paladins viable raid healers. This is simply not the topic here. Go create your own thread if you want to talk about Paladins and raid healing. This one is about tank healing.
It's give and take. We're outhealed in AoE situations constantly. Tank healing is all we can do. We are incapable of healing a raid in content that is actually difficult. The versatility of a Holy Paladin is very low when we're forced to play by Blizzard's rules in Hardmodes. Any class can effectively tank heal. What do we have to make up for that? The (under all normal circumstances) strongest singletarget healing available. If a Resto Druid were to spam Nourish on a tank with all of his HoTs rolling, he'd have higher HPS with less mana usage than a Holy Paladin on the same target. Just saying it's possible, not saying it's their job.
Holy Paladin Healing
It's niche, it's spam, and it's a job someone needs to have in a raid. Our effective HPS only skyrockets in rare situations where two tanks are taking similar amounts of damage. With the amount of avoidance tanks have, it's very rare we'll see the 200% healing we're capable of. In IC we'll have a neato niche with tanks taking more consistent damage.
The worst thing you're saying is that nerfing our unique ability is
necessary
. It's our 51 point talent. It's a very good 51 point talent. Without arguement, it's our best talent. No other class has a "drawback" to using a healing spell besides the cooldown and the mana cost. Why should we be any different? We suffer from the same mana issues that other classes have when they're working at full-blast. We can't sustain the HPS you're talking about for that long.
I'm thinking you come from a DPS background, where one class having an unfair advantage on DPS is a clear problem for balancing.
Where do you expect the tank healing that would be otherwise absent come from if you saw these changes?
On top of that, why don't all the
top 2v2 teams
have a Holy Paladin healer? 2v2 has historically shown where an imbalance between classes can be very clear. Maybe not directly with the DPS or HPS, but with the ability to control a fight. If the HPS were all that mattered, no other class would be in there. I know this is a very big tangent, but if Holy Paladin double-target healing were really that overpowered, it'd be very clear in the 2v2 bracket. The problem is, that the class representation seems to be "mostly" Holy Paladins, with Disc Priests and Resto Druids very well represented. Resto Shaman are sorely not even on the list. The fact we're even there is sometimes because of the exploitive Prot/Holy specs.
It's the best we have. It's really all we have, too. Behind every Holy Paladin on those "Highest Effective HPS" charts were at least 4 other healers that had equally important jobs that actually kept more raiders alive to kill the boss. We keep 1-2 raiders (tanks) alive at a time, yes, but if those dropped the entire raid would wipe. We need the rolling HoTs to fill the gaps in our casts. We need
Inspiration
or
Ancestral Healing
active on that tank so they won't die. There's a lot more to raiding than the effective HPS of healers. HPS a necessary thing to have, without a high HPS we'd have no tank to heal, but it's such a convoluted job for a raider that you cannot depend on the meters to show a whole picture.
I'm interested in what content you're doing if you think that this is overpowered. Hardmode encounters have been balanced with Beacon in mind. It's expected it will be there. It's expected to be active at every moment. We can raid heal "effectively" in low end content like 10mans and normalmode encounters, but in Hardmode encounters the tanks take too much damage for us to go retarded and heal the raid.
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OscarDivine
omg guys stop feeding the troll. He's trolled the priest forums and he left because we all agreed that he had no idea what he was talking about. just stop.
I have to admit I feel honored to have my very own forum stalker. Do you want a cookie?
One thing though, please try to be less awesome. Now that I got a really cool guy pointing a finger at me for being a complete d-bag, the least I can expect is that you try not to be such an all around awesome guy. Thanks.
/cast tranq shot
Don't take it out on me if you're peeved in this thread. Oh, and calling me Pathetic makes you so very superior. btw, I would like a
cookie
though I'm married, thanks.
/farewell
Post by
Brique
It would allow raids much more flexibility. There should not be "must have a Paladin to tank heal or we can't do it" mentality.
We have this already. That's normal-mode content. It's 10man hard-modes. They aren't balanced with anything but the bare essentials in mind. With 25man hard-modes, having a balanced raid composition (by Blizzard's standard) is very important.
I've kinda accepted that when you're playing in content like ToGC 25 Anub, you're going to need every last ounce of will of every last player to kill the boss. Tank healing is a niche. Right? We'll at least always have tanks to heal. Right? There will at least always be raid damage to avoid raids stacking solely Holy Paladins to heal the encounter. Right? I hope they intend every encounter to be "fun" for the 25 people they're bringing in to the raid. Right?
By the point you're doing hard-modes, you should expect these finely tuned encounters to demand some perfect play.
"You do what you do best. You do it better than any other class, while avoiding all the bad stuff we've used to kill stupids. Now the bad stuff will kill stupids instantly, so all that's left is for us to make it so you're actually challenged by playing your character to perfection."
There are only four healing classes. Each of them with a Unique Approach. Holy Paladins happen to be the strongest direct healers in the game. Why shouldn't we have the highest HPS with our Unique Approach?
Post by
Rouen
They are merely examples that we are familiar with since obviously nobody here is capable of thinking a little abstract (since my main arguments just keeps getting ignored and all you do is nerdrage).
lolwut? Your the one who keeps complaining about BoL. BoL is what makes us unique, like a druid's HoT's and a shaman's totems and chain heal. BoL let's us heal two targets, so it must be nerfed? By the same logic, let's nerf Chain Heal, Wild Growth, Circle of Healing, or even Divine Hymn and Tranquility since it's effectively a raid wide Lay On Hands.
Yes what you say is true. But that's exactly my point: No other tank healing class/spec can do that. No other can healing class/spec can stop healing the tanks and focus on the raid for a while without risking the tanks life.
I'll just link what I said earlier about this since you like skip over what is detrimental to your argument.
False statement. Disc Priest can heal the tank and still throw out a Renew (Instant) or a Flash Heal on the raid in the same capacity that a paladin can. Resto shammys have Chain Heal which heals three targets. Last time I checked, Chain Heal doesn't heal the tank three times... Druids have Wild Growth (Instant) which hits 5 people in one group.
So why did you bother linking them as a central piece of your arguement if they didn't matter? Beacon does not double our heals on a single target, it simply bounces heals from one target to the Beaconed target and allows us to effective dual tank heal.Exactly. And how can that ever be balanced? One class can dual tank heal, others can't.
And I didn't link Priests or Shamans as central piece of my argument. My argument can stand on its own just fine without them.
I'm talking about meters, you know, your beloved worldoflogs or whatever that you've ranted on about? And yes you keep bringing in Priests and Shammys and Resto druids into this, don't say that you haven't. You keep comparing us to them. Beacon of Light is our niche, why is this such a difficult concept for you to understand? Go cry to Blizzard or go back to trolling the priest forums, I'm laughing as I watch the paladin community destroy you.
That was not what I meant. I was talking about tank healing. If Paladins can ONLY tank heal and not raid heal then it is justified to have them be ~5% better tank healers then the other classes. The fact that Druids may be 300% better raid healers just doesn't matter.
Saying that just because Paladins can't raid heal they should be twice as good on the tank then Shamans is like saying that Mages should do double the DPS of Shamans since Shamans can heal infinetely better. Doesn't make much sense, does it?
What I meant was:
Paladin tank healing: 105%
Paladin raid healing: sucks
Shaman tank healing: 100%
Shaman raid healing: 100%
Priest tank healing: 100%
Priest raid healing: 100%
Druid raid healing: 105%
Druid tank healing: sucks
Druids = (Primarily)Raid Healers. Paladin = (Primarily)Tank healers. Shammy = Tank and/or Raid healers. Priest = Tank or Raid healer.
We all have our roles. I'm tired of you crying because paladins can tank heal (or dual tank heal) and you, as a resto druid, can't as well as us.
We are only supposed to tank heal, but just like any other healing class we have the capacity to throw out a few heals on the raid. It's not gamebreaking and never was.
Please go back under your bridge troll.
guess I just have to ignore you from now on. Get some manners or don't try to talk to me at all. Pathetic.
This is awfully high and mighty for a troll. HEY GUYS, two trolls got together and had a retard! The priests wouldn't have him and now he's here! Boy are we lucky :)
Thank you for another constrictive post. I was not aware of Blizzards intent to have Paladins be the best tank healers. Could you please provide a link to prove that? I have to admit I find it kind of hard to believe. Constrictive post? There has been several constr
u
ctive posts here, including my own, but your constant QQing has completely derailed the conversation.
I'll provide the link for you.
Read it.
Just in case you refuse to read it, I'll copy it for you. I've also bolded the important spots so the blind troll can't miss it.
We like that Holy paladins have a niche as single-target healers. The problem is we think this niche is a little too narrow at the moment.
Furthermore, paladins don’t have a wide arsenal of healing spells so it’s important that all of them are being used.
First, we are changing Flash of Light so that it places a heal-over-time effect on any target with Sacred Shield on them (the effect will be similar to Sheathe of Light). This should make Flash see a little more use.
Second, and more importantly, we are changing the way Beacon of Light works. Currently, it does not count over-healing on the target. We are changing that. In other words, if you place Holy Light on a rogue who is already at full health, it will still have the full effect on a tank with Beacon of Light on them. This is a huge buff, particularly when you consider the Holy Light glyph which allows for a small amount of “splash” healing. This effect isn’t common when you use Holy Light on a tank because the tank is often standing alone. But if you heal the melee, you are likely to get a lot more total healing from this effect (while still healing the tank through Beacon of Light). We are also going to try to allow a target to have more than one beacon (i.e. from different paladins) on them.
Many players may surmise that this change would make paladins far and away the best healers in the game. This is partially because paladin mana regeneration is so potent. That isn’t an issue when the paladin can generally only heal the tank. With the Beacon of Light change, the paladin can provide a lot more raid or party healing. To adjust for this, we are going to reduce the amount of mana returned by Illumination. If you use Holy Light too recklessly (such as on targets who don’t require that much healing) you do risk burning out of mana too quickly. Of course, they will still have Divine Plea and other mana regeneration mechanics.
As a footnote, we are also likely to slightly adjust Replenishment and buff the amount of MP5 on gear.
These changes should lead to healing as Holy being more dynamic – you are going to be targeting a lot more group members than just the tank, while still providing massive healing on the tank. However, you won’t be able to just constantly spam your biggest heals, at least not on the more challenging encounters. There is an opportunity here for skilled players to really do some outstanding healing as paladins, but it’s going to take a little more effort. This is something a lot of players have been asking for so we hope that it delivers without completely changing what some paladins enjoy about their healing style.
There is your proof. Now go away.
Post by
blademeld
NO. Repeating it doesn't make it true.
And ignoring it doesn't make it false.
Those skills are fundamentally different from BoL
and in no way superior.
Exactly, apples to oranges.
If you say the Priest has the time to throw a PW:S at the raid and say that counts for raid healing then you also have to say that the Paladin has the time to throw FoL at the raid (without using BoL).
False, PW:S and Rejuv can both be cast before the AoE. FoL has to be cast afterwards while the tank damage has to be healed first.
Comparing that to BoL doesn't even remotely make sense. How can anybody not see that ?
Because you were the first person who brought up BoL. You have your raid healing AoEs and HoTs, we have our tank healing Bacon.
And I will not come up with "alternatives" for raid healing. As I explained in detail BoL has nothing to do with raid healing. It mirrors all your heals to one single person. By definition it can never ever make you a raid healer since it will only heal 1 guy. What it does is make you a better tank healer because it will allow you to heal 2 tanks at once or 1 tank and the raid. Huge difference.
I will also not talk about options that would make Paladins viable raid healers. This is simply not the topic here. Go create your own thread if you want to talk about Paladins and raid healing. This one is about tank healing.
Paladins can be quite good tank healers and quite good raid healers
at the same time
.
...
The key word I'm looking for here is "Coherency."
You have stated that paladins are good raid healers, then you proceed to say they suck at raid healing.
You say that BoL is OP for tank healing, then you state that paladins are good for nothing but tank healing.
BoL and tank healing is the paladin niche, as is HoT and raid healing being the druid's niche.
Why can't this thread be a give-and-take thread?
Nerfing BoL significantly will pose a problem for paladin healing, no one will make an alternate thread for a compensation for that, it's simply a continuation of this thread.
Post by
blademeld
Oh, I took the liberty of going through the threads you have made, one asking if druids are viable tank healers.
The replies said yes.
To me, it looks like you don't know what you're talking about, and it looks like you're ignoring their responses.
Post by
Nystali
Oh, I took the liberty of going through the threads you have made, one asking if druids are viable tank healers.
The replies said yes.
To me, it looks like you don't know what you're talking about, and it looks like you're ignoring their responses.
It can't be true if he can't effectively tank heal.
Is that a problem with his class or another class? Or is it something wrong between keyboard and chair?
Post by
Rouen
Hey Blademeld. You called it. Megavolt created a thread on tank healing as a druid on the same day as this thread.
I'm wondering if Druids could be good tank healers in serious content. With all the buffs that Nourish got recently our single target hps is through the roof, right? .........
TL;DR: New Empowered Touch makes Druids able to properly tank heal?
Link to the topic is
here
He said his resto is his main and knows all about healing as one, but he asks very simple questions like that?
This is proof to me that he made the BoL thread just because he's butt hurt. He believes that holy paladins can raid heal in the same capacity as tank healing, meaning we are both great raid healers and tank healers too at the same time. We all know this isn't true.
TL:DR I will sum up this thread for readers.
Due to the changes in Beacon of Light, this improves Holy Paladin's from just focusing on a single tank to being able to heal a tank while throwing out single target heals on a raid. If you choose to put the Beacon on an off tank, the ability allows us to heal two tanks instead, but no one else.... and MegaVolt has some kind of issue with that.
/thread and lock it please.
Post by
138584
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
172720
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Since a LOT has been posted here I hope you understand that I can not answer to everything in detail. My last post already was quite long and I'd be writing stuff for the next two hours if I tried.
Instead I will pick the things that I think are most important. In case you feel your point was ignored and are very interested in what I have to say about it then please just repeat it ;)
Have you tried beaconing your tank assignment and then tossing out mad FoLs at the raid? its very effective.
Seems like your contradicting yourself here.
Several people said I'm contradicting myself. I don't think this is true.
Being able to heal the raid (meaning: spreading heals around the raid) does not make Paladins good raid healers. Yes, they can heal targets other then the tank. But they will have a lower efficiency at it then "real" raid healers.
That's why I am not contradicting myself: Yes, Paladins can raid heal. Everyone can. There is nothing preventing them from throwing their heals at raid members.
When somebody is saying "Paladins can't raid heal" he doesn't actually mean "Paladins are physically not able to cast healing spells at raid members except the tank" but instead the meaning is "Paladins are not good at raid healing". This is also what I meant.
That's why BoL doesn't make Paladins raid healers. They can heal the raid no better or worse with BoL. Their raid healing capabilities remain unchanged, meaning they are still bad raid healers. What BoL allows them to do is be a bad raid healer and a bad tank healer
at once
. "Bad" in this context is maybe the wrong word. But they won't do as good as either a dedicated tank healer or a dedicated raid healer
if they beacon one tank and only raid heal with their normal casts
.
I assume it's clear now?
On top of that, why don't all the
top 2v2 teams
have a Holy Paladin healer? 2v2 has historically shown where an imbalance between classes can be very clear. Maybe not directly with the DPS or HPS, but with the ability to control a fight. If the HPS were all that mattered, no other class would be in there.
In this case 2v2 is not a valid measure. In 2v2 the most important thing (as far as I know, I'm not big on PvP I have to admit) is burst damage on one single target. Target switches occur but there will only be one target taking heavy damage at any given time. At best there is some minor damage on the second one.
I think it is obvious that those conditions are about the worst you can get for BoL and that any possible imbalance that BoL causes in raids (where there often is consistent damage on two tanks) will not show in 2v2.
I think everyone is agreeing that Paladins are the strongest tank healer and the weakest raid healer. As I said before, if you want other healers to heal tanks as well as Paladins (or even close), then you need to give paladins raid healing ability (even close) relative to those other classes. You have not mentioned that at all, and are actively saying "it's not important". That leads us to believe you are not talking about balance, since you do not include healing as a whole. You are only looking at one aspect and ignoring the rest.
People here are arguing that BoL is not overpowered. This is equivalent to arguing that Paladins are not the strongest tank healers. So people here seem not to agree with you that Paladins are the strongest tank healers.
I on the other hand agree with that. And I think it is wrong. They are the by far strongest tank healers but they shouldn't be - or at least they should be only by a small margin.
People are saying that if they aren't the best tank healers they would be obvolete. Why? Why should that make any difference? You will always need tank healers, every encounter (except maybe Faction Champions ;)) needs them. If Paladins can do as well as other healers on tanks they will get their raid spots on tank healing. I just don't see a problem here and I don't see why raid healing would be relevant for that.
Tranquility since it's effectively a raid wide Lay On Hands.
Make your homework. Tranquility is
party wide
, not raid wide. Which makes it an almost entirely useless spell. Comparing it to the awesomeness that is Lay On Hands is ridiculous.
You try to speak of healing balance and you don't even know the basics about other healing classes?
We like that Holy paladins have a niche as single-target healers. The problem is we think this niche is a little too narrow at the moment.
Furthermore, paladins don’t have a wide arsenal of healing spells so it’s important that all of them are being used.
First, we are changing Flash of Light so that it places a heal-over-time effect on any target with Sacred Shield on them (the effect will be similar to Sheathe of Light). This should make Flash see a little more use.
Second, and more importantly, we are changing the way Beacon of Light works. Currently, it does not count over-healing on the target. We are changing that. In other words, if you place Holy Light on a rogue who is already at full health, it will still have the full effect on a tank with Beacon of Light on them. This is a huge buff, particularly when you consider the Holy Light glyph which allows for a small amount of “splash” healing. This effect isn’t common when you use Holy Light on a tank because the tank is often standing alone. But if you heal the melee, you are likely to get a lot more total healing from this effect (while still healing the tank through Beacon of Light). We are also going to try to allow a target to have more than one beacon (i.e. from different paladins) on them.
Many players may surmise that this change would make paladins far and away the best healers in the game. This is partially because paladin mana regeneration is so potent. That isn’t an issue when the paladin can generally only heal the tank. With the Beacon of Light change, the paladin can provide a lot more raid or party healing. To adjust for this, we are going to reduce the amount of mana returned by Illumination. If you use Holy Light too recklessly (such as on targets who don’t require that much healing) you do risk burning out of mana too quickly. Of course, they will still have Divine Plea and other mana regeneration mechanics.
As a footnote, we are also likely to slightly adjust Replenishment and buff the amount of MP5 on gear.
These changes should lead to healing as Holy being more dynamic – you are going to be targeting a lot more group members than just the tank, while still providing massive healing on the tank. However, you won’t be able to just constantly spam your biggest heals, at least not on the more challenging encounters. There is an opportunity here for skilled players to really do some outstanding healing as paladins, but it’s going to take a little more effort. This is something a lot of players have been asking for so we hope that it delivers without completely changing what some paladins enjoy about their healing style.
There is your proof. Now go away.
Ignoring the rest of your post since your parents seem to have failed in teaching you even the most basic manners. This is no way to talk to people, grow up.
About that quote: Many players may surmise that this change would make paladins far and away the best healers in the game. This is partially because paladin mana regeneration is so potent. That isn’t an issue when the paladin can generally only heal the tank.
Obviously Blizzard does NOT want Paladins to be "far and away the best healers in the game". They saw the OP issue that BoL will have and tried to fix it by making Paladins mana regeneration significantly weaker. You proved my point: Blizzard wanted Paladins to be
a little bit
stronger and not totally dominate tank healing. I think they failed at that, the buff went too far.
Link to the topic is
here
He said his resto is his main and knows all about healing as one, but he asks very simple questions like that?
This is proof to me that he made the BoL thread just because he's butt hurt. He believes that holy paladins can raid heal in the same capacity as tank healing, meaning we are both great raid healers and tank healers too at the same time. We all know this isn't true.
TL:DR I will sum up this thread for readers.
Due to the changes in Beacon of Light, this improves Holy Paladin's from just focusing on a single tank to being able to heal a tank while throwing out single target heals on a raid. If you choose to put the Beacon on an off tank, the ability allows us to heal two tanks instead, but no one else.... and MegaVolt has some kind of issue with that.
I'm glad to see that you know what I am thinking. How did you get to be a mind reader?
Yes, I have an issue with Paladins being able to heal two tanks at once. It is something that no other (tank) healing class/spec can do and giving this ability to only one of three tank healing classes is fundamentally flawed.
Yes my main is a Druid and I think I know a whole damn lot about Druid healing. The thing is since Druids are awesome raid healers I have never ever tried to tank heal on my Druid in any serious content.
Yes, I have tank healed Onyx or normal mode ToC when we were short on healers. There is absolutely no problem with that, any healing class can do that. Paladins can just as well raid heal those encounters since they are very easy.
But that didn't help me with my problem. I was wondering if Druids could sustain a tank in a difficult (=TotGC) encounter. That's why I asked in the Druid forums. I don't think it's an easy question - at least I don't know a single Druid who did MT heal TotGC. Asking the forum seems to be quite a good idea in such a situation, right?
And I think it really was. I got a much better picture of Druids capabilities.
I think after the information I got out of this topic I can place Druid healers at about 80% to 90% of the tank healing capacity of other classes. That's enough to heal most encounters and it also fits nicely to what has been said here before (by YJMark, it's the same as his estimate).
It's a process really. I starting thinking about tank healing a few days ago. Since my main is a Druid I obviously was thinking about Druid tank healing first. I'm not really experienced with it so I asked at the Druid forum. While trying to get a good grasp on tank healing in general I started to think about other classes capabilities. Yes, the Druid forum topic is the one that inspired me to think in-depth about BoL and it effects on the game.
It has nothing to do with QQing or being butthurt or trolling or whatever else you are trying to accuse me of. It's just that I am thinking about the issue of tank healing in WoW right now and how all the pieces are supposed to fit together and how they actually do work in the game. I see a difference in how it is supposed to work and how it is working. And I call that difference out to learn more about the game. And I did, apart from stupid flames (which sadly seem to be the majority in any internet forum) I actually got some useful information here. I am still sad that many posters are acting like little children but I guess it's just the nature of the internet (and WoW especially).
Back on topic:
This is probably the right time to explain the use of "bad" a few lines above. I said that "bad" is relative and basically only means "less then other classes". Being only 80% effective on tanks makes Druids bad tank healers. It doesn't make them unable to heal most content but it does make them inferior. Or in other words: Just because the content is easy enough so that you can do it without the perfect fit doesn't mean your class is good at it.
But I don't mind the 80% (or 90%) tank healing efficiency on Druids. We are good raid healers and we are not supposed to be superb tank healers, I'm fine with that. Why do you have so many issues with Paladins being balanced for tank healing without being good raid healers? I think Druids should be balanced for raid healing, no matter if they can tank heal or not. I don't care about their tank healing weakness, it shouldn't be used as an excuse to demand to be OP in any field.
Now lets look at Paladin raid healing. People claimed that Paladin raid healing would be much closer to 30% or something like that. I don't agree, I think you are vastly over-estimating other classes and vastly underestimating your own (in other words: you are QQing).
Let's take Shamans for example. They can use CH to raid heal. However, in most encounters these days there is either a lot of movement or people have to be very spread out. Or even both. CH will be quite ineffective in such situations since it only hits people close to each other and it casts slow. That's why in Ulduar many Shamans didn't rely on CH much for raid heals but instead used the Riptide / LHW strategy. Riptide is their instant cast (pretty much Holy Shock) and LHW is their FoL. Riptide procs +25% crit chance on LHW and each crit will proc
Ancestral Awakening
for bonus heals on low HP raid members. So basically what Shamans did to be considered good raid healers is throw their version of FoL on the raid.
Paladins may miss a proc like Ancestral Awakening but they have quite some neat stuff of their own (Divine Favor, Infusion of Light, Sacred Shield procs). Putting them at 30% raid healing hardly seems justified. I'd put them at around 80% of Shamans.
I pointed out that in situations where raid healing is key (as his own information points out for factions champs) he ignored that too.
I guess if you feed the troll some facts he can't reply :)
Faction Champions is a very special fight that uses PvP mechanics. I ignored Faction Champs for that reason. My statement that there is not a single non-Paladin tank healer in the worldoflogs listings would have been wrong for the Faction Champs encounter. I forgot to mention that I'm not looking at that one since it is a gimmick encounter and doesn't use the normal PvE mechanic but to be honest I think it is quite obvious to do so.
In other words: No, for Factions Champions Paladins are not overpowered. How could they be in an encounter without dedicated tanks?
And what reply did you expect for the worldoflogs shields? Thank you for the information, it is nice and neat ... but it does neither validate nor invalidate what I said. It's some useful additional information that helps to better read the logs but it doesn't really fundamentally change anything.
Post by
Brique
We're getting all up in a tizzy because we can't do anything but tank heal. Understand?
Every point you have, everything you pick out of our (I'm saying, because there are plenty of badly planned tangents in this thread which are asking to be shot apart,) flawed arguments, has no relevance to what you're saying the topic is.
To us it's all relevant.
Understand that and stop dismissing it all.
Humor me. Say it isn't balanced after your nerf. Say Paladin healing took a nosedive, and tanks are dropping unless we bring 9+ healers to a raid.
My point on 2v2 arenas was that there is a strong representation of Paladins for the sole reason we are strong direct healers. There are Resto Druids and Disc Priests on there too, and they're also strong direct healers. Apparently, Paladins are popular
but definitely not dominating the bracket.
If we were dominating the bracket because our HPS is
so strong
that no DPS could compete, then I'd see a problem.
I do raid. I have no idea if you raid or not. You can check my achievements, you can check my gear, I can only hope you realize I know what I'm talking about when I speak about Paladin Healing. Achievements and gear are all I really have to substantiate the fact that I'm a good player and a good raider, and the fact I would see a massive gap in the healing a tank would receive if Beacon of Light were to be nerfed. Raids would fail because we'd bring more healers and stress DPS even further, especially in progressive raiding where DPS benchmarks are finely tuned.
A lot of the commenters here know quite well their role in a raid,
some of them even on the top edge of progressive raiding. Where would the healing Beacon provides come from if it were not from Beacon?
Post by
slasher0161
Just throwing it out there that i find it funny you say you don't contradict yourself yet refuse to reply to those that have clearly pointed out your contradictions. Then you also refuse to give any sort of an intellectual response to the well known members of the paladin community.
My top suggestion for you seeing as you overlook everyone else. Lube up before your next raid and have a mug of concrete so it won't hurt your E-peen so much when your look at your precious
world of
(bull^&*!)
logs
.
Post by
MegaVolt
My point on 2v2 arenas was that there is a strong representation of Paladins for the sole reason we are strong direct healers. There are Resto Druids and Disc Priests on there too, and they're also strong direct healers. Apparently, Paladins are popular
but definitely not dominating the bracket.
If we were dominating the bracket because our HPS is
so strong
that no DPS could compete, then I'd see a problem.
And it is a good point. As I said before Paladin single target heals are just as good as other classes single target heals. They are quite balanced without BoL (well, with 0 BoL Paladins would even be very slightly inferior) and Paladins are popular for all the other cool stuff they bring to a 2v2 team (tons of buffs, hands etc).
My point was that BoL has almost no effect in 2v2. BoL only can shine when more then one guy is taking damage and it really shines bright when exactly two people are taking consistent damage. This rarely ever happens in 2v2 but it happens in raids all the time. That's why 2v2 is not an accurate measure for BoL balance in raids.
Just throwing it out there that i find it funny you say you don't contradict yourself yet refuse to reply to those that have clearly pointed out your contradictions. Then you also refuse to give any sort of an intellectual response to the well known members of the paladin community.
My top suggestion for you seeing as you overlook everyone else. Lube up before your next raid and have a mug of concrete so it won't hurt your E-peen so much when your look at your precious
world of
(bull^&*!)
logs
.
I responded to an accusation of self-contradiction in my previous post. I pointed out why I was in fact not contradicting myself. If you have other issues then please don't just say "you are contradicting yourself!" because it is impossible for me to validate that claim. Instead please quote the part in which you think I wrote something contradicting so I can properly respond. Thanks.
As for the well known members of the Paladin community: Please point them out and point out to which "intellectual" post of theirs I did not respond.
I am responding to every post that is written in a mannered way and I am also responding to some less mannered posts if I think they have at least some substance. I am ignoring &*!@#$s that do nothing but insult. It would be really sad if those people happen to be the well known members of the Paladin community ... but without a few names I can't really say much about it ;)
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