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My take on Cataclysm and the Timeline
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Post by
Gnub
There may be a couple of spoilers in my post. I'm keeping them to a minimum, but if you don't want to find anything out until you install that patch and see for yourself, then skip my post!
The Cataclysm happens. Sure the "old wow" stuff is replaced by the Cataclysm stuff, but only in the same way ice is replaced by water when it melts.
They might be ret-conning the Worgen and/or Goblins in, there's been no word on their specific time-line. I heard something about the cataclysm forcing the Goblins from their home, but I can't remember if that was official or speculation.
Deathwing rises, the volcanos erupt, the world is flooded.
Your character might be grinding Argent rep when he hears the news that something major has happened in Azeroth.
I fail to see where you supply proof of what you're spoiling, which is needed if it is to be considered a spoiler. You make it sound like you got into the Cataclysm beta, which isn't out yet.
There has been nothing in any of the announcements or on the official site to suggest that Cataclysm replaces the history we have now.
And nor has there been anything to suggest that it doesn't. It works both ways. :)
Post by
445568
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
sutasafaia
The only thing wrong I see in this thread so far is that Worgen and Goblins can NOT be Death Knights when they are first released. Feel free to hunt for the blue post, I'm to lazy, but they said to not spoil the race to 85 for the new races that Death Knight will not be an available choice.
As far as the timeline goes...eh, not interested as deeply as some seem to be. I don't see it as vanilla never happened, sorta can't considering things like Thrall putting Garrosh in control of Orgrimmar because of events that are now happening that weren't before. Just because the world is going to change doesn't have to mean the world is being replaced.
If a child was born today, and the world was nuked tomorrow, that child would get to live in the post apocolyptic time. If a child was born after the nuke, it doesn't mean the old world never existed, simply that it's time is passed and it's not coming back. Yes, the old world was replaced, but it's not like it never existed in the fist place.
Post by
136091
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gnub
(Edit: Yeah, it took me two days to answer - I was stone-drunk when I read the reply the first time, had a terrible hangover the next ... and then I semi-forgot. Anyway, here goes)
Knowing that WotLK happens after everything in tBC (
timeline
)
The endgame is ofcourse what that timeline is refering to, that should be a given. Death Knight starting area in WotLK happens before tBC timeline-wise. Keep in mind, that timeline is incomplete, and doesn't include the newly added novels. For instance, Night of the Dragon that happens somewhere in between The Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King. I should probably do a minor comment on that exact case, as it should probably illustrate my line of thought pretty well.
(...) reading the official
Cataclysm
FAQ should be all you need.
"
While the attention of the Horde and Alliance remained fixed upon Northrend, an ancient evil has been lying dormant within Deepholm
"
"
Soon, Deathwing the Destroyer will return to Azeroth, and his eruption from Deepholm will sunder the world, leaving a festering wound across the continents.
"
It can actually be understood in many different ways. Our attention has been fixed on Northrend since The Frozen Throne. I think the wording has been done like that, as it's basically impossible to write about something that "hasn't happened yet", but when happening, has already done so.
The only issue here is Outland still being the 60-70 area when technically it shouldn't be (as Deathwing could be seen as a much more pressing issue to deal with for characters at that level than the Burning Legion), but that's covered in a couple of blue posts that seem to say that you're going to have to suspend any disbelief, and assume the player wants to deal with the Legion. (
post
,
post
)
Which is what I spend a good part in my original blog post to explain: Deathwing isn't really active until level 78 (when we leave Northrend). Before that, the world has indeed been cataclysmed, we just don't know the immediate reasons, or sense any further threat from it. The Legion (on the brink of re-emerging through the portal) and the Lich King (amassing a huge army in Northrend, ready to strike - we won't repeat the mistakes that the Plague and "first Scourge" did) are notable offensive forces, and has to be dealt with, while Deathwing works in the shadows, amassing his Twilight followers, and waiting till his would-be competitors for world-domination are dealt with - by us. We probably won't even notice him for real until we reach the endgame content - it's not like he's going to be flying around and breathing lava on Westfall and such - right?
With regards to Worgen/Goblin DKs, I think they said at Blizzcon that there is no real reason in lore for them to exist, but it's technically possible, so they made it in. (
post
)
Imagine having them try to explain what I wrote in my original post. It's seemingly too complex for the ordinary mind to wrap itself around, despite just being a simple (but big) case of retcon.
And if that's not enough, it just makes no sense to make the entire expansion a ret-con. This is an epic dragon coming to f--k with people, they're not going to miss a chance to hype this up, instead of just saying "Come on guys, it's Deathwing, remember... the big dragon? The reason the world is so messed up? You remember, right?"
The whole expansion isn't. The recreation of Azeroth (1-60 content) is a retcon, the highlevel 78-85 stuff is not - the storyline evolves, it simply changes as well.
What doesn't make sense is telling level 1 characters that everything they're fighting is already dead, and when they see the Lich King for the first time, he was dead before the world was torn apart. That's going to be even more of a mind-boggling thing to comprehend (besides not making any sense what so ever).
Please note that, while I might seem ignorant against the above "proof", it's more to make sense of the madness that would ensure if the cataclysm will officially happen after the WotLK storyline. Try to imagine the previous paragraph, first with the cataclysm before, then after, and see what'll make most sense from a new characters point of view.
Post by
90985
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Mesoforte
*cough*
But think of it like this. You have Vanilla WoW, DKs are released with TBC, right at the end of vannilla (Lore-wise). After TBC but before the Icecrown Citadel raid, Cataclysm happens.
No - You can't have "Vanilla WoW happened - then the Cataclysm happens". Refer to what I wrote to the above quote.
Also, I like that you refer to the correct term "RetCon", but fail to understand what it actually means. It's a MAJOR one, but what I'm explaining is exactly that - a retcon. Stuff gets
replaced
, for better and more fitting - it hasn't magically changed at year X in a timeline.
Do you take everything written on a forum as a personal attack or something?
I was just responding to someone else, not to your general post. -_- For the current players who *did* play through vanilla content, this isn't a retcon. We have a definite point on when the event occurred on our timeline in the intro video for Cataclysm. It happens *while the battle against Arthas rages on.*
For the new players that come to Cataclysm, they won't get the original WoW, so their story is getting a change (and any new alts you make once it happens).
Post by
Gnub
Do you take everything written on a forum as a personal attack or something? I was just responding to someone else, not to your general post. -_-
Oh, no, not at all - Sorry if it seemed like that... and the tone - it's indeed a bit hard to sound happy and cheerful all the time, especially when you get a good flow of writing going. Keep in mind, my response to you was a part of a multi-reply. Besides, a discussion like this I'd consider "Free for All", not just 1 on 1 conversations. :)
For the current players who *did* play through vanilla content, this isn't a retcon. We have a definite point on when the event occurred on our timeline in the intro video for Cataclysm. It happens *while the battle against Arthas rages on.*
For the new players that come to Cataclysm, they won't get the original WoW, so their story is getting a change (and any new alts you make once it happens).
I think we're actually arguing for the same point - somehow. It's indeed a retcon for every current player (like Draenei/Blood Elf starting areas and additions of various NPCs throughout the world), but nothing for new players, as it just seems normal (and this should naturally be a given when talking about retcons). It might seem like it's an impossible task to merge these two into one, but what I'm looking at is the "final" timeline, that is, how it's going to look for new players. For that to make any sense, it
has
to happen as the first thing.
Anyway, it would seem that I'll end up getting defeated in my arguing regarding how the current implementation of it is going to end up being, but we'll find the definite answer for that when the Beta hits and/or the actual expansion releases. Until that, I'll continue to make sense of it - unless ofcourse Blizzard does an official explanation, instead of various short puzzling texts and sayings.
Please note that, while I might seem ignorant against the above "proof", it's more to make sense of the madness that would ensure if the cataclysm will officially happen after the WotLK storyline.
I'll probably have to quote that again, and add a slight hint of "arrogant" on top. Don't worry Mesoforte, I'm a happy person, I just get carried away slightly easy :)
Post by
Gnub
A small thing called
suspension of disbelief
is crucial when contemplating time lines in a game with such a massive story as WoW. Yes, goblin and worgens aren't playable characters in WotLK, but they did exist in the game. (Gilneas DOES exist, there just isn't anything there if you go to it, and the goblins DID exist on their island.) So, who is to say, one, two or hundreds of them didn't make their way to Azeroth, fight with the Argent Dawn, and be turned into Death Knights?
The exact same case as with Draenei and Blood Elves - and they made sense, at least through my eyes. I havn't really seen tons of arguments against why Draenei Death Knights didn't make sense. Blood Elves were probably easier, as most just looked at "oh well, there was Blood Elves in Warcraft III - case closed".
The point is, if you try to wrap your mind about when these events take place, then you're going to take all the fun out of it.
I find it quite fun actually. A challenge of explaining, understanding and dealing with the whole concept of time. But I see what you're hinting at though, but for me at least that's the exact term of "Where's the fun in that...?" :)
Post by
232756
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gnub
see i think some people aren't seeing the bigger picture. between level 1-60, you wont be fighting deathwing. you will see his wake, and you will say to yourself "damn, i really want to kill that guy". you progress through outland, through Northrend, and then you come back to your home to deal with the bastard who laid waste to your land.
for us WoW players who are already 80, the timeline goes vanilla, outland, WotLK, then Cata.
for new players, the timeline goes cata, outland, WotLK, then back to deal with deathwing and his minions.
Indeed, a lot of people aren't seeing the picture - Deathwing burst through the Elemental Planes into Deepholm, to finally lay the last hands on the plot while the rest of us dealt with his competitors. Be sure to distinguish the different parts of Cataclysm, instead of seeing it as one segment, it makes it easier. Every character - at the same level - must have the "same past", and did essentially level up at the same time. Then again, that's one of the even more frightening things to comprehend in a MMO.
they are renovating the whole game, so expect the timeline to alter. focus on the new content and dont worry about if it makes sense timeline wise, because if you are seriously upset with the way the timeline goes and how it doesn't follow all of the books you have read and games you've played, then you really need to get out and stop playing WoW for a while because you've let a video game consume you.
So, deep interest in Warcraft-lore, and a strong will to try and explain the madness means that I'm totally
consumed
and
seriously upset
? Please - I'm enjoying the ride, let there be no doubt of that in any form - although, I just realized that I maybe should've posted this thread in the "Lore & Roleplaying"-forum instead. :)
Besides, so far, I havn't actually seen any clashes with my "theory" and a Warcraft-based book. The only two I could find that happens in or close to the WoW-timeline is segments of
Arthas
and
Night of the Dragon
- and they actually fit. It'll probably take a while to elaborate, but I can do that - and will do - should people request it, or have as much interest as me.
I'm sure whatever happens, blizzard will make it work and people will continue to play it. i know i definitely will
And I will likewise. It's not like I'm raging about the whole matter, like some people did with the whole Eredar/Draenei retcon - which, even though it was a rather major one, it was done in a good way (at least in my opinion) to represent the Draenei as we know them now.
Post by
autoslizer
I tend to hope that Goblin and Worgen Death Knights are
trained
by the ebon blade since they did not experience Arthas' attack on New Avalon. This could actually be put to all races as how the Ebon Blade gets recruits without Arthas.
Post by
Gnub
I tend to hope that Goblin and Worgen Death Knights are
trained
by the ebon blade since they did not experience Arthas' attack on New Avalon. This could actually be put to all races as how the Ebon Blade gets recruits without Arthas.
Minor question to that:
How would you resurrect them in the first place, without the help of ... well, those that made it possible, which are first of all dead-dead in Naxxramas, and alligned with the Lich King, who - in that time - is most likely also vanquished completely?
Post by
136091
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
this whole thing is messed up as far as timelines goes.
let's think for a moment, on cataclysm, we make a new toon, say a goblin, you are part of the horde, level up to 58 on the post-apocaliptic azeroth.
at 58 you cross the dark portal into outland, and what the hell? thrallmar orc's talk about being sent by thrall to rediscover their roots?, on garadar the whole hero of the mag'har thingie has us reshaping garrosh?
it's weird because when we're lvl 11 we see garrosh as a "skull lvl" warchief on ogrimar, but then we travel to outland, and he's an emo kid, that feels guilt and low self steem, but then we got to borean tundra, and he's an overlord..............
arg, tryng to think about this makes my head hurt I'm gonna just chew some bubble gum............
(chewing gum)
Post by
Gnub
There's not much I can say to most of that without simply disagreeing, and there's no point going down that route while no one knows.
Indeed. Argument against argument - the flavour of every good discussion :)
Where does Garrosh fit into your retcon timeline? Is Thrall going to have never been the leader of the Horde? The friction Thrall and Garrosh have between them stems from what is happening in Northrend "now", so if this was fit in to be the way it always was, how could Garrosh be leader of the Horde?
See, this is one of those questions that's around as good as the Kor'Kron guards which are currently (read: Patch 3.3) in Undercity - even for players who havn't completed the questline. And, that is meant in a very good way: Good question! But, fear not, I have a good answer :)
First of all though, we'd have to assume that Garrosh will
actually
take the place as Warchief. I know it has been written about in an article about the Cataclysm, but it hasn't exactly been confirmed by Blizzard (if that however is the case, I'd again really like to see the source, as I havn't seen it). Trall is still mentioned as Warchief on the Cataclysm-page - but my guess is that there will be an event similar to Wrathgate, that settles it once and for all.
So, I'm guessing (and - off all my lore-caring heart - hoping) that this will be resolved, and in a similar matter: NPC Phasing. That is, when the player completes the Wrathgate Event, the Kor'kron guards will replace the Abominations (amongst others) in the Undercity. In the same way, Thrall will be replaced - in Orgrimmar - by Garrosh Hellscream, and the whole "purging of every non-Tauren/Orc from the center of town"-thing, when the player completes a certain event, or reaches the point in the timeline where he replaces Thrall.
It's rather obvious why the whole thing would make sense to implent. Imagine the Forsaken who have, while they've leveled, every time they return to their home in the Undercity, is reminded of an event that hasn't happened yet - and THEN they finally take part of it in Northrend only to realize that "Oh... yeah, well, I knew
that
already. Lame." Imagine afterwards the ordinary Orc (or the same Forsaken as before) leveling, and respecting/fearing Warchief Garrosh... only to later
find him
in Outlands (lolwut?), being a whiny weak orc with no backbone (
lolwut?
) - and then seeing him in Northrend grinding axes with Warchief Thrall (wait -
what?
). And not only that, they'd later see the events that made Garrosh Warchief over Thrall.
As you can see, the time-clashes there are quite stupid - and terrible. Fixing it to let it be justified that things were like that since "day 1" would take alot of changing of Outlands and Northrend, besides revamping alot more lore than necessary. Why do that, when you can "just" do a simple NPC-phasing, and let it be fixed like that?
Post by
Gnub
at 58 you cross the dark portal into outland, and what the hell? thrallmar orc's talk about being sent by thrall to rediscover their roots?, on garadar the whole hero of the mag'har thingie has us reshaping garrosh?
it's weird because when we're lvl 11 we see garrosh as a "skull lvl" warchief on ogrimar, but then we travel to outland, and he's an emo kid, that feels guilt and low self steem, but then we got to borean tundra, and he's an overlord..............
Heh, it's funny as I was actually writing my above post while this was posted, and I didn't really notice it until now.
Basically, I've explained it in that post - or at least given a setup that'll allow it to work out.
Post by
48586
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Post by
331789
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Post by
Monday
Holy crap post necros! Otherwise, its mainly your people were young, cataclysm hits, they become heroes, go battle. Then they hit outland, where you're pretty much mopping up the remaining legion demons and the like (for lore, you're still doing the same quests), then you go to Northrend to finish off the remaining scourge/vrykul/rebelling blue flight/etc. Then you go to New Azeroth, and then its modern times and your moving with the timeline.
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