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Parallels between WoW and Lord of the Rings
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Post by
Rystrave
Sure, if Tolkien wouldn't have defined it as an orc, it could have been named as a teddy by anyone else.
According to said Wiki page:
"The first English use of 'orke', in 1656 (forty-one years before Perrault published his Mother Goose tales), comes from Don Zara, a fairy tale by Samuel Holland."
Which I guess is not
orc
, but regardless the term has been around before Tolkien wrote any LOTR.
Edit: I'm late in replying because I got busy at work :( oh well. El and Adams explained it well.
Post by
Eccentrica
I think there are an awfully lot amount of parallels between wow and LOTR. the biggest hint is the races: orcs (orcs), trolls (trolls from the hobbit or the stone ones in the movie), undead (Dead Men of Dunharrow), and the blood elves (comeparable to LOTR elves) and humans (men), gnomes (might represent the hobbits), dwarves (dwarves), night elves (comparable to LOTR elves)
so dont look at the classes but the races. they hide the biggest parralells.
Goblins, Hobgoblins, Trolls, the Undead, Gnomes, Dwarves and Elves all predate Tolkien by a couple of hundred years.
There is truly nothing new under the sun.
Post by
Eccentrica
...
finished. *big teethy smile*
Let's just get a couple of things straight, no one, and I mean no one likes a smartass. Secondly, if you've come here to discuss lore you'd better get your big boy pants on as we've a couple of lore nuts who could talk circles around you. Thirdly, Gandalf was a demi-god. If you're going to attempt to preach to the choir it helps to know your facts and to have read more than merely The Lord of the Rings, if in fact you've read any of the books and are not merely attempting to discuss what you saw in a movie once.
Meow.
Post by
murphmanfa
Okay, let's give this a shot. While there are some similarities, and several of those are direct, WoW owes more directly to D&D than to Lord of the Rings. Dungeons & Dragons itself developed in part because of Lord of the Rings as well as other fantasy literature, so there are other indirect ties to it; but that fact does not mean that these parallels are absolutely fundamental and can be precisely tied to it any more than Starcraft is precisely tied to Heinlein's novel
Starship Troopers
, upon which James Cameron drew influence for the film
Aliens
, which in turn influenced Blizzard in the making of Starcraft.
I'm going to do the best I can here; if I had access to my copies of the books, I'd be using citations and quotes, but my friend has them sitting in a box somewhere. >:C So, a caveat here: I'm going by what I can recall and a few things that I'm looking up as I go, so not all of this will be completely correct. I'll try and get stuff as right as I can, though, and people can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Tolkien did not get orcs from mythology. TOLKIEN WAS THE FIRST ONE TO COME UP WITH THE ORCS!
This has already been addressed in the thread. It was not mythology, at least not of an ancient sort (like Greco-Roman, for example), but the concept of the orc predated LotR by centuries.
Additionally, in Tolkien's universe, "modern-day" orcs (for lack of a better phrase) are descended from elves who were twisted and tortured into these dark, wretched forms. Warcraft orcs are creatures from beyond the Dark Portal who are a race of their own with their own culture, independent of the elven races.
The dwarves in lord of the rings have a good liking for gold as do the ones in wow. and the entrance to ironforge looks like moria.
Dwarves in a lot of fantasy literature have a penchant for treasure. Again, this is something that is seen in many pen-and-paper RPGs and MUDs and is more of a fantasy archetype than anything else.
The stone entrances of Blackrock Mountain and a fair amount of Blackrock Depths are far closer in design to Moria than anything else in the game, though; yet even there you see significant differences.
The blood elves are similar to the elves of rivendel, due to the same building structure, and looks. The night elves look the same as the wood elves (galadriel folk) and they live in the trees.
They are also similar to the elves because they were once immortal! they are also one with animals....
Blood elves have a fairly rich lore. Though their physical appearance resembles Tolkien's elves, with pointed ears and fair complexion, that's another fantasy standard. However, their architecture is not at all like that of the Rivendell elves. The blood elf buildings are elegant and cylindrical, with curling ramps leading to upper levels and in all things an arc or curve; Rivendell, on the other hand, has buildings that are more square, as seen in the maps crafted for
The Atlas of Middle-Earth
.
Night elves, sharing more or less the same skeleton (programming-wise) as the blood elves, would obviously look quite similar, but the elves in Mirkwood and Lothlorien certainly don't have skin of such a dark tone, nor hair of such unusual color. The appearance of the night elves is more akin to the Drow of Dungeons & Dragons than anything that comes to mind in
Lord of the Rings
. The architecture of Lothlorien, however, is something between that seen in the elven races of Azeroth- it has the elegance seen in blood elf architecture, while blending itself with the trees and environment, similar to night elf buildings, though in the latter case the night elves have crafted their dwellings and such out of the trees themselves rather than through construction and masonry.
The trolls are unlike the ones in lord of the rings in every way.
No comment; this speaks for itself.
The death knight arthas has buildings and techniques and armour remarkably similar to those of the dark lord sauron.
This, at least, does show a fair amount of direct influence. The
quest in Icecrown where you have to destroy the Ocular
is a perfect example of this, with the tower (like much of the Scourge architecture in Northrend) resembling Barad-dur and Sauron's crafts.
Aragorn is an arms warrior. He wielded that great sword in the war, and was rly cool with it.
Aragorn is a ranger who would wear light armor, and be able to camouflage himself, and is better represented by the vanilla Survival hunter spec than any warrior, as warriors wear the heaviest armor in the game and are about as stealthy as a chainsaw.
Gimli was too an arms warrior, with his great axe. however in moria he does wield 2.
If we're going strictly by WoW classes then this would likely be fairly accurate. Arms with a Fury off-spec for when he's really in distress, like when he sees his cousin's long-abandoned tomb.
Gollum is a gnome rogue. no questions asked.
Gollum was once of a race very similar to hobbits, though better-adjusted to the rivers of the land than modern-day hobbits are. If he is a gnome, then this cannot be true:
I cant relate the hobbits to anything, the gnomes are in a snowy area, not green, and they actually are clever.
for if Smeagol is gnomish, then so too would be all the hobbits.
Legolas was a marksmanship hunter with no pet.
This would be true of many elves in fantasy; however, I'd kind of say that tying it to a specific talent spec is quite a reach.
the hobbits weren't anything. they didnt do much at all.
That's odd that you say that, because I seem to recall one saving the entire world. And as a culture there's far more reasons for their existence in Middle-Earth than I care to go into at this time.
bilbo in the hobbit was a sub rogue due to his invisibility (frodo has this power aswell, but he knows he cant use it, bilbo didnt know, so used it frequently)
Again, tying the characters to a particular spec within WoW is a reach. Neither of them are as violent or heartless as rogues typically are in WoW lore, which makes that a difficult pill to swallow.
Gandalf was a human or elven mage (either elf). This is because he has human form but is superior to humans due to his magic.
Gandalf was not a human, nor an elf; he was essentially a demi-god, as has been stated, and the closest thing, in WoW lore, would probably be a Dragon Aspect, although Gandalf is less powerful.
finished. *big teethy smile*
My money is on it that you're a troll, especially based on this last remark; but I had fun writing this out anyway, and I should hope that some folks who read it find it either entertaining or informative.
Post by
193475
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eccentrica
Okay, let's give this a shot. ... I had fun writing this out anyway, and I should hope that some folks who read it find it either entertaining or informative.
Nicely done sir, it was a good read.
Post by
hymer
Dear murph, you had the patience for what I didn’t. I applaud you. There are, however, a few things I’d like to oppose or otherwise address:
1: The ‘Orcs from Elves’ theory is one of several solutions to where Orcs came from which Tolkien came up with. He
rejected them all
. We don’t know where Orcs came from.
2: Tolkien was the first to make elves into people of man size with individual identities, family trees, a history and languages. This carried on into D&D and on into WoW. Whether WoW takes it from one source or the other (or both or several others) can't really be determined.
3: I have yet to see any indication that Tolkien’s Elves had pointy ears. It seems people are more likely to tell an Elf from a Man by eyes or voice. If you can point to any place in his published works where Elves (or pretty much any race) are described as having pointy ears, I’ll withdraw this objection. But I don’t think you or anybody can.
Post by
murphmanfa
Dear murph, you had the patience for what I didn’t. I applaud you. There are, however, a few things I’d like to oppose or otherwise address:
1: The ‘Orcs from Elves’ theory is one of several solutions to where Orcs came from which Tolkien came up with. He
rejected them all
. We don’t know where Orcs came from.
2: Tolkien was the first to make elves into people of man size with individual identities, family trees, a history and languages. This carried on into D&D and on into WoW. Whether WoW takes it from one source or the other (or both or several others) can't really be determined.
3: I have yet to see any indication that Tolkien’s Elves had pointy ears. It seems people are more likely to tell an Elf from a Man by eyes or voice. If you can point to any place in his published works where Elves (or pretty much any race) are described as having pointy ears, I’ll withdraw this objection. But I don’t think you or anybody can.
Thanks for this- as I said, I don't really have the books here at home to fact-check with, and a lot of this is going from (admittedly rusty) memory. I stand corrected on all counts here.
Post by
mojojojo101
I think it's mainly that people who write fantasy, especially this kind of fantasy aren't particularly creative when it comes to this kind of thing. Most fantasy stories have elves, men, dwarves, orcs, goblins in some way shape or form and nearly every story has a 'big bad' used to focus the story.
I think it's more that odd kind of like pseudo-nepotism displayed between all of the major fantasy universes than anything particular about Warcraft and LotR.
Post by
Nathanyal
1: The ‘Orcs from Elves’ theory is one of several solutions to where Orcs came from which Tolkien came up with. He
rejected them all
. We don’t know where Orcs came from.
I'm not that big with Tolkien and the lore with LotR, but I did look it up and found something which I posted. But it was the last post on the previous page so it might have gotten overlooked. But here it is again:
Actually, the wiki says Tolkien got it from George MacDonald's
The Princess and the Goblin
. Stating so in a letter he wrote.
They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition ... especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in.
Source
After reading a summary of the book, it seems he changed several things when making the orcs we know now. But there are still some characteristics that remain the same.
As for point 3, I found nothing about their ears. Here is what I did find:
Physically the Elves resemble humans almost identically; indeed, they are arguably the same species, as they can marry and have children (though this is extremely rare and the Half-elven are very famous as a result). However the Elves have a more ethereal and less visceral nature, and their bodies "fade" into their spirits, to the point that any Elves alive today would be totally ghostlike and invisible to most Humans.
It is probably something people add so we can tell them apart when we see them in film and other media.
Post by
murphmanfa
1: The ‘Orcs from Elves’ theory is one of several solutions to where Orcs came from which Tolkien came up with. He
rejected them all
. We don’t know where Orcs came from.
I'm not that big with Tolkien and the lore with LotR, but I did look it up and found something which I posted. But it was the last post on the previous page so it might have gotten overlooked. But here it is again:
Actually, the wiki says Tolkien got it from George MacDonald's
The Princess and the Goblin
. Stating so in a letter he wrote.
They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition ... especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in.
Source
After reading a summary of the book, it seems he changed several things when making the orcs we know now. But there are still some characteristics that remain the same.
I think that he was addressing their origin within the lore, rather than as a race in the fantasy genre; you're addressing the origin of the Orc as a concept in fiction, but hymer is talking about how they came to be in Middle-Earth.
As for point 3, I found nothing about their ears. Here is what I did find:
Physically the Elves resemble humans almost identically; indeed, they are arguably the same species, as they can marry and have children (though this is extremely rare and the Half-elven are very famous as a result). However the Elves have a more ethereal and less visceral nature, and their bodies "fade" into their spirits, to the point that any Elves alive today would be totally ghostlike and invisible to most Humans.
It is probably something people add so we can tell them apart when we see them in film and other media.
Very interesting. I
love
learning this stuff. I think that I've just become so accustomed to their pointy ears in visual media that I accepted it as being based on something in literature. Like I said, I'm a bit rusty and I'm confusing some of the details.
Post by
Nathanyal
I think that he was addressing their origin within the lore, rather than as a race in the fantasy genre; you're addressing the origin of the Orc as a concept in fiction, but hymer is talking about how they came to be in Middle-Earth.
Ahh okay, that makes sense. I got confused and didn't notice.
I did find something about orcs being "corrupted elves".
It is said in The Silmarillion (page 47) "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest of foes." This text refers to the Quendi who ran and hid at the sight of Oromë when he came to lead them from Cuiviénen westward. These "corrupted elves" were the first orcs. There are various races of orcs (though with later races of orcs came different physical and non-physical characteristics like increasing tolerance to sunlight) all identical in their hate for everything that Illuvatar and the Valar had constructed (including themselves) to resemble the hate that lay within Melkor.
Source
On the page under "The origin of Orcs". There are several other, such as them being made from earth and being sentient beasts. There is even mention of female orcs. Much like female dwarves, they rarely leave, and mostly have the men go off fighting.
But after more reading, it seems Tolkein wanted to change it where orcs were from corrupted men instead of elves.
While Tolkien at some point saw all Orcs as descended from the original corrupted and tortured Elves, later comments of his indicate, according to Christopher Tolkien in Morgoth's Ring "Myths Transformed" text X, that he began to feel uncomfortable with this theory. At about the same time he removed the references to the Thrall-Ñoldorin, he also began searching for a new origin for the Orcs. It seems Tolkien wanted to change the origin of the Orcs to make them corrupted and twisted Humans. He says of this Human origin view of the Orcs :
"This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behaviour of Orcs – and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them."
There is more, but this is enough copy pasta for now lol.
Post by
1070246
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
1090498
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hymer
Depends what you mean by that. He didn't invent the word (as he says himself, he chose it for its phonetic suitability), but he did invent the race at least as much as he invented Elves/elves. He made (yet another) an archetype that lives on and influences any number of fantasy worlds today (whether by inspiration, emulation or opposition).
Post by
Dragalthor
Witch King - Lich King (sound alike).
Both Undead.
They both ride a giant dragon, both of whom are presumably undead.
Both live in frozen wastelands.
Both used to be powerful, honorable royalty.
Both corrupted by powerful artifacts sent to them (Frostmourne, ring)
Armor looks alike.
Only in the movies. If you'd taken the time to read the books you'd have learnt that the fell beasts of the air in the books were more alike to featherless birds not dragons. The Witchking isn't technically undead, his life has been stretched out by the ring and he has 'faded' but nowhere does it state that he is dead!
Post by
1090498
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
1090498
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
calilac
Films are fun but reading is good for the brains :)
Post by
Eccentrica
w8, i looked up elves. tolkien didnt make them up, they were mythical creatures with powers. tolkien didnt make them... :(
Anyone with the slightest exposure to children's literature could have told you that.
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