This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Rankkor
Ugh.
So 8.1 has one MASSIVE plot hole, that I am surprised almost nobody is talking about.
So sylvanas can apparently raise night elves as forsaken Dark Rangers.
Hmmm what?
How the hell is sylvanas able to raise night elves as forsaken in the first place? Its been an established plot point since cataclysm that the val'kyr can only resurrect Vrykul, and their descendants, the humans. That's it. Nothing else. While sylvanas can use standard necromancy to raise undead of any race (as demonstrated in the battle for lordaeron, when she raised skeletons of all the races there) this results in mindless bog-standard undead like zombies and skeletons. She CANNOT make forsaken-style undead (That is to say: Sapient undead capable of speaking, having a personalty, etc) from any of the non-human races. And this was established pretty firmly in Silverpine forest. The alliance sent a bunch of rogues to pyrewood village to attack the forsaken on
this quest
, and made a deliberate point of only sending gnomish, dwarven, and
night elf
rogues precisely because the valks would be unable to raise them as undead.
And as far as I know, this has not changed since then. So how in the name of Thrall's beard is she suddenly capable of raising night elves as dark rangers all of the sudden? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and they BETTER provide a damned good explanation for why she does.
So the two horde storylines for the horde in 8.1 are a rethread of 5.1, and a questchain with a plothole bigger than dalaran's crater.
Awesome.
Post by
Behelich
Glad I’m not the only one who is worried about the elephant in the room.
Questionable characterization and rehashing of plot threads is one thing, but breaking their own clearly established rules is just depressing.
On the other hand, if they address just how the Night Elves can now be rezzed by Sylvanas and co., that would actually be immensely gratifying.
So far one of the possible explanations would be, Delaryn and Sira aren’t really properly reanimated. Rather, they were raised as mindless corpses, and then Sylvanas’ banshees stealthily possess them to do a hell of an impersonation.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, since the Dark Rangers are like Sylvanas, aka Elf bodies raised by necromancy then possessed by the banshee essence to take over their body again, it's not that much of a stretch...it's not a good plot, but since this entire expac is rehashing previous stuff, it's not unexpected either.
Post by
Rankkor
but these are not elf bodies raised by necromancy then possessed by banshees. These are elf bodies explicitly resurrected as forsaken by val'kyr, something that was previously explicitly stated to be impossible.
Post by
Adamsm
Missed that part of your post...but honestly, at this point in the game, I have a feeling that most of the 'rules' on Valks are going out the window, and probably with the next expac we'll be given a choice for Forsaken body types instead of just sticking with dead humans. Aka, Blizzard don't care anymore.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
you'd think so, given that legion wrapped up almost every dangling plot thread there was. Pretty much the only unfinished business we had left was azshara before they decided to restart the war only to repeat MoP again.
IMO, barring sargeras stabbing azeroth, Legion would have been a good place to call it quits. Just wrap it up, and move on to the next big thing.
Post by
oneforthemoney
you'd think so, given that legion wrapped up almost every dangling plot thread there was. Pretty much the only unfinished business we had left was azshara before they decided to restart the war only to repeat MoP again.
IMO, barring sargeras stabbing azeroth, Legion would have been a good place to call it quits. Just wrap it up, and move on to the next big thing.
Basically how I'm treating it. I let my account die and didn't pick up the expansion this time. Legion ended it well for me, because really, the Legion was the last big thing. They were behind nearly every major evil in warcraft, and taking them down feels like the right end. I'm even glad we didn't actually fight Sargeras, as having a bunch of random guys beat him to death would be such a downer for so impressive a character in the lore, but still dealt with him, crippled the Legion, and brought back the Pantheon.
Overall, it really left the game on a high note of hope, so long as you avoid the whole Azerite thing, and the bullcrap about the void lords or whatever. It felt like the end of Warcraft 3. Things went on, but we defeated a huge evil, and you know? That was enough for me.
Post by
Adamsm
Azshara, N'Zoth and the Void Lords are worthy successors of the new villain threat...as I've said a lot of time, but the execution is just idiotic this time around. You could still call this the Battle of Azeroth, as the world unites again against the rising threat of the Old Gods, led by the Queen of Boobs and who knows how many twisted Old God mutations...but nooooo, we have to do the stupid ass war plot yet again which is gonna get ignored in a patch /sigh
Of course, apparently an incentive of Blizzcon this year is going to be early access to the Classic servers...so maybe this is why Battle is the rehash expansion, to try to get the nostalgia insanity stirred up.
Post by
Rankkor
So, having seen the "Terror of Darkshore" cutscene/trailer, as a proud hordie, my reaction was to create
this
meme.
>_> frigging malfurion......
Post by
oneforthemoney
At least they're finally doing something other than being the Alliance's racial punching bag. Seriously, ever since WoW started, if something bad happens to an Alliance faction, it's gonna be Night Elves.
Post by
oneforthemoney
So I eventually gave in and bought Battle for Azeroth, and my thoughts so far? It's pretty good. Even maybe a step up from Legion as it's looking into smaller stories on the WoW verse.
But the really interesting thing about it?
It's essentially Cataclysm done right.
The more I look at it, the more I see it that way. It's a re-ignition of the Alliance and Horde conflict, based around a sudden, earth shattering event. However, this time the characters motives and personalities are actually a driving force behind it. Sylvanas isn't just 'lol evil times!'. She sees a sudden potential weapon appearing and, in her mind, seizes it before it can be used against her, ironically forcing the conflict. The Alliance is actually staffed by people who WANT to fight the Horde, so it's not just the Horde being colossal %^&*s. The old gods are involved, but this time they're more of a back seat menace lurking in the shadows and a subtler force underpinning events, but they aren't just slapping the factions in the face and running, giggling, back to their dungeons to wait for the raid. Even the troll empire coming back is being treated in a way that makes sense to the broader events of the expansion instead of just filler dungeons.
There's STORY, essentially. Story that actually matters and is intertwined with the events in a meaningful way. Characters have motivations beyond 'let's all fight'. Jaina has guilt. Her past, pacifist self is actually the topic of scorn for some instead of everyone wishing she'd go back to that. Things once done and seen as good are being seen in a new light. Her purge of Dalaran and getting kicked off the council is being treated as something she should feel guilty about! The troll empire is introducing new characters for leadership roles the Horde has been whittling down for ages, and they're actually interesting.
All of this makes the expansion work really well so far.
But you know what Blizzard's real problem is? Ironically, the thing that was once its best quality?
Thrall.
What the !@#$ is up with Thrall?
I've finally realized what my problem is with the last four expansions. The thing that, even as I loved the story, kept niggling at the back of my mind, and that even now taints how much I'm enjoying BfA. Thrall has become an utter lodestone around the franchise. What the hell is he doing? What has he been up to for the last three expansions? The Horde has been sliding back into evil, and where is he? Who knows! Nobody seems to care. After he crushed Garrosh in a stone fist, he vanished again! For some reason, Saurfang, the guy who has every right to retire, keeps getting hauled back in to clean up the mess for the orcs. Honestly? I wish Thrall was dead. Because that, at least, would explain why he's been doing &*!@ all to stop the Horde, the thing he refounded, from repeatedly throwing itself at the Alliance like a rabid dog. Would have been nice if he had talked to Jaina at all about what she did and what happened to her. Would have been cool if he offered some advice to Baine. Would have been fan-&*!@ing-tastic if he'd been a voice of reason in the Sylvanas war drive.
But he hasn't. And if he did now? I'd be saying, why the hell didn't you do it before? You know. During the last four expansions, instead of doing jack all.
So. Yeah. BfA is a lot of fun.
Post by
Rankkor
Interesting read. I agree with some, and not so much with some.
BfA has been a mixed bag for me.
Her purge of Dalaran and getting kicked off the council is being treated as something she should feel guilty about!
I haven't done much of the alliance story, mostly because I'm waiting for 8.1 before I finish leveling my Void Elf alt, so, thus far I've only done the intro to boralus, and as soon as I'm sent outside the city, that's where I stopped.
So, having almost no context on the alliance story...... do they actually address the purge? Because so far, Jaina's story has only made me gag (Freely admit that's mostly because I'm already predisposed to hate her, and it would take A LOT to make me change my mind). Her only regret I've seen thus far is her not siding with her crazy father when he was butchering civilians back in warcraft 3.
At no point I've seen her display any kind of remorse for the purge of dalaran. And more infuriatingly, nobody has given her any crap over it either, even though she overstepped her bounds, and made a bad situation worse by handling it in the worst possible way imaginable, doing more harm to the alliance than good in the process.
The purge has been mostly just.......swept under the rug, for some reason. Even when Vereesa reunites with Alleria, the purge is never mentioned. When the three sisters reunite in the comic, the purge is again, never mentioned, with Vereesa hypocritically saying she hopes the blood elves, the same blood elves she butchered by the truckload out of bigotry, will one day reunite with the alliance.
There's STORY, essentially. Story that actually matters and is intertwined with the events in a meaningful way. Characters have motivations beyond 'let's all fight'.
The story has been a mixed bag for me.
I'll admit, it stems from my pro-horde leanings, but this expansion thus far has been a rethread of what we went through in MoP.
Controversial warchief, who acts like a jackass to everyone, splitting the horde in half, who attempts to murder another horde leader, only to fail and have said horde leader brew a secret underground rebellion to topple the tyrannical ruler, who continues to slide down the slippery rope of evil further and further, alienating what few allies they had before.
its almost a shot-for-shot remake of the story of garrosh.
This is why BfA feels like a step-down from Legion.
WoD had almost no story to speak of. Legion had a lot of it. BfA has a lot of it too, but at least horde-side, its pretty much a remake of a story we already went through, with little to no variation in between thus far.
What the !@#$ is up with Thrall?
After he crushed Garrosh in a stone fist, he vanished again!
Actually he had a cameo in Legion, and I'm not talking about the broken shore.
He shows up for enhancement shamans to explain why he no longer carries the doomhammer. He also has had two additional children on top of the one he had at the end of cataclysm.
His absence is well explained, even if I don't like the explanation as it goes against his character completely. That dreadful elemental bondlines questchain in cataclysm showed that he viewed his role as warchief as a very heavy burden that he felt chained by, he lifted that off his shoulders when he appointed garrosh, and once garrosh proved to be the single biggest colossal screw up he's ever made, he felt unworthy of picking up the mantle again.
So he has left the horde in all but name. He only involved himself with the draenor expedition because again, they were hunting garrosh, whom he viewed as his biggest mistake that he had to correct, but once he corrected it, he stepped down from everything involving the horde, as he feels unworthy of ever leading anyone again.
Not really something I can agree with, but at least it was addressed.
Honestly, I think his involvement with the story is gonna be minimal. Metzen left the company, and took his voice-acting sidegig with him. I'm betting that was the primary reason they killed off Varian.
There's almost nothing left of the original badass warchief from warcraft 3. He's lost his badass black plate, the doomhammer, his awesome mullet, his name, his love for the horde, and even his shamanistic powers.
Honestly, what's left to bring back?
On the gameplay side of things, BfA has TOTALLY been a major stepdown from legion. Azerite armor can't hold a candle to the artifact weapons. In almost every conceivable way. The weapons had cool designs, impacted the class in a meaningful way, had a ton of lore and flavor to them, had fun quests to obtain them, had plenty of collectible skins to customize them, had secrets to uncover, and gave progression that felt impactful and meaningful.
Azerite armor is bland, boring, infuriatingly frustrating with its RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG, has no lore to speak of, and no customization at all.
Island expeditions are mildly entertaining, but not by much. And warfronts are not as fun as I envisioned them.
I had more fun doing the class campaigns in legion. Plus, no suramar equivalent. I still maintain that the entire storyline of suramar is blizzard's crowning achievement in storytelling and zone design. Their magnus opus. There's nowhere else for them to go to but down from there.(##RESPBREAK##)264##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
At no point I've seen her display any kind of remorse for the purge of dalaran. And more infuriatingly, nobody has given her any crap over it either, even though she overstepped her bounds, and made a bad situation worse by handling it in the worst possible way imaginable, doing more harm to the alliance than good in the process.
It comes up when rescuing her from the shadow realm. She's being tormented by all her mistakes and one of them is the dalaran hierarchy shouting down at her.
its almost a shot-for-shot remake of the story of garrosh.
I agree there are a lot of similarities, hence why I referred to it as Cata done right. I'm honestly curious where the whole 'prophecy was a lie' thing is going, and what that means for Sylvanas. They seem to be going somewhere with the troll princess for that so I'm looking forward to where it all ends up.
Actually he had a cameo in Legion, and I'm not talking about the broken shore.
Ohhhh! I didn't know that. Okay, that makes sense. That doesn't necessarily make it good by any stretch but it makes sense.
Azerite armor can't hold a candle to the artifact weapons.
Firm agreement with you there. I do wish they'd kept the weapons, but I can see why they chose to go in a different direction. That said, the whole Hero of Azeroth, while good, does lack the broader appeal of different stories for the classes, and really cuts down the replay value of the expansio (not that I played many of the other classes but still).
And yeah. Suramar was definitely one of Blizzard's best writing works. I thoroughly enjoyed the whole region and part of the expansion, full stop. The uprising, the withered, I loved everything about it. But I have to say I am really enjoying the Kul Tiris storyline in BfA. It has a great eccletic taste to it, from politicking to Wicker Man witchcraft and the always handy Lovecraft plot. The regions don't necessarily tie together like the horde one seemed to, but it does allow them each to have a very specific flavor that I, personally, enjoyed. In particular Drustvar. Wonderful old Europe classic witch stuff with some great twists to it.
Post by
Rankkor
Ohh yeah, I enjoyed the story in zandalar too. Furthermore, I appreciate that this expansion has very few neutral quests. All quests are either horde-exclusive, or alliance exclusive.
In all expansions before, once you've done the content as one faction, you've done it as the other pretty much, because the number of faction-exclusive content is minimal. Its been this way since cata.
In TBC, there was a lot of faction-exclusive content, Hellfire peninsula had different quests with thrallmar and honor hold, the blood elf base and draenei temple, in zangarmarsh there were also lots of faction exclusive content, with the draenei quests for alliance, and the troll quests for horde, and so on, each zone had a big chunk of neutral quests, but also just as much faction-exclusivity. Wrath did the same.
But on cata, other than the first half of the twilight highlands, and a small handful of quests in Vashj'ir, the expansion was identical for both sides. On MoP, other than the first quarter of the jade forest, a handful of quests in kun-lai, and a quarter of krasarang, the expansion was identical for both sides. WoD brought back more faction exclusive stuff, back to the same proportions of Wrath, but then in legion, the only bit of faction exclusive content was a quarter of stormheim, the rest of the expac was the same for both sides.
BfA on the other hand, has nothing BUT faction-exclusive content, with maybe half a dozen questlines available for both sides. I've only done the horde content thus far, and its an objective fact that I've only played half the expansion, and this will continue to be the case until I do the alliance side. Same for you with the ally content. Once you've done all there is to do as alliance in BfA, there's an entire whole game left for you to do as horde. And that's great. That's easily my favorite feature of BfA, and one I wish blizzard did again on the next one.
Splitting the new continent in two, one horde and one alliance, may have been one of their best ideas so far.
Reigniting the faction conflict however, is not something I approve of.
Not just because they made the horde AGAIN the bad guys (Something that players on both sides of the fence are tired of, there's quite a bit of alliance players who are sick of being the ones reacting to horde aggression and would love to be the ones taking the initiative for a change) but also because this expansion is setting itself up to piss off a majority of the players, regardless of how they handle the ending.
When there's a war, there needs to be a winner, and by necessity when one wins, the other loses. And nobody likes to be the loser. So no matter what blizzard does, quite a lot of folks are gonna end up angry. End the war with a horde victory and sylvanas alive, and the alliance players will be rightly upset at not getting a chance for payback, and the horde winning. End the war with an alliance victory and sylvanas dead, and horde players will be rightly upset, at yet another faction war loss for us (Siege of Orgrimmar was nasty for me), and a FOURTH warchief lost, back-to-back.
And if they go the middle road, and wuss out of the war by having a big ol' Old God burst forth and interrupt it, so we sweep it under the rug and team up to take him down and sign an armistice at the end, like they did in Wrath, and Cata, then they will piss off EVERYONE, because if nobody wins, that just means everyone loses. And as said before, nobody likes to be the loser.(##RESPBREAK##)264##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
And if they go the middle road, and wuss out of the war by having a big ol' Old God burst forth and interrupt it, so we sweep it under the rug and team up to take him down and sign an armistice at the end, like they did in Wrath, and Cata, then they will piss off EVERYONE, because if nobody wins, that just means everyone loses. And as said before, nobody likes to be the loser.
Yeah. I'm really getting the feeling that's the plan again here, and I'm not exactly thrilled by it. A sea based expansion and the final old god buried underwater? Of course we're going to end with that.
That said, I cannot wait to finally punch Azshara in the face. She and the naga have been poking us for too damn long without us being able to do anything substantive back. That was the biggest let down in Cata by far. They set up the naga as huge players in the whole thing and then just dropped them in favor of tentacle Deathwing.
Post by
Rankkor
That said, I cannot wait to finally punch Azshara in the face. She and the naga have been poking us for too damn long without us being able to do anything substantive back. That was the biggest let down in Cata by far. They set up the naga as huge players in the whole thing and then just dropped them in favor of tentacle Deathwing.
Ohh you don't know the half of it.
Vashj'ir ended with neptulon kidnapped by Ozumat, and that cliffhanger not only was never resolved, but in legion, Neptulon showed up just fine, and offered no explanation as to how he freed himself from ozumat, and when. They just swept the whole thing under the rug and never even mentioned it.
Vashj was just an exercise in how to NOT do storytelling in general. I mean, the big reason we even go there in the first place (an island that rose from the sea out of nowhere that the horde could use as a staging ground to attack stormwind) is immediately forgotten, never to be mentioned again the minute our ships sink. For all the stuff we do underwater, we never really actually even SEE the aforementioned island. I could probably write a 20-page essay on just how bad Vashj was from a narrative point of view, but I think I've made my point already.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Vashj was just an exercise in how to NOT do storytelling in general. I mean, the big reason we even go there in the first place (an island that rose from the sea out of nowhere that the horde could use as a staging ground to attack stormwind) is immediately forgotten, never to be mentioned again the minute our ships sink. For all the stuff we do underwater, we never really actually even SEE the aforementioned island. I could probably write a 20-page essay on just how bad Vashj was from a narrative point of view, but I think I've made my point already.
Ugh. Yeah. I feel like Cata was sort of where the storytelling started to drift, got its feet back a little in Pandaria, then just went full on dumpster fire in Warlords.
Post by
Rankkor
Ugh. Why can't forsaken models look
THIS
good in the actual game? you know, with actual knees and elbows, and stuff like that? seriously, if there's ever a race that needs a complete revamp in their looks, the forsaken are that race. Specially as Before the Storm clearly indicated that forsaken come in a wide variety of shapes and forms as some corpses were more decayed than others when brought back to life, so while some of them looked like they do ingame, with exposed bones, joints, missing jaws and such, others looked more like Nathanos and the playable Death Knights do, as well preserved undead corpses that highly resemble their still living appearance.
Would be awfully nice if this is how they actually showed in the game.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Hey Rank, is there some way I can privately contact you?
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.