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General Lore Discussions
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Post by
oneforthemoney
I know that the whole expac is 'war is declared' and yes Anduin is being aggressive and Jaina's new stance is 'rage roar rage'...but she stopped her father from committing genocide, which would have screwed the world over so many freaking times as without the Horde, one of the many threats would have destroyed the world. But acting like she feels like she has to atone, come on; she felt horrible about killing her father, but she did the right thing at the time. They need to remember what happened before rather than just being so slipshod.
I think what's meant is Anduin thinks
she
feels she has to atone for killing her father and
not
letting him slaughter the Horde. So it's more like we have to stop her from going too far and wanting to utterly wipe out the Horde.
Post by
Adamsm
I'd say yes...except, what was in the spoiler aside, doesn't seem like Anduin has that feeling this time around.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Hm. Well, beta is beta. It might just be a kink in the writing for the moment.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh there's a kink in the writing this expac, but not in a good way. From characters having massive personality shifts; hot blooded Genn is now calm and collected. Sylvanas talks about protecting the Horde, but she drops Blight in the Battle for Lordaeron without giving her own people a real chance to withdraw though she is nice enough to provide gas masks, and raises dead Horde members as mindless skeleton fodder to push the Alliance back for the next move. And then you've got Zul of the Zandalari; the troll responsible for the push to unify the Troll tribes and Pandaria invasion, to see him as someone who says he saw visions of the Horde champion saving the world and he had been waiting for them. Oh, and even though we never saw Zul, he was somehow captured and put in the Stockade, as was the princess of the Zandalari tribe with no real story provided on the how and why that happened...I'm guessing it's going to be in the book, but I'm not reading that.
There's also the fact that after doing both the Alliance and Horde quests back to back, beyond where you are, the ideas of the zones are pretty much the same. Alliance, unify the various factions on Kul Tiras and figure out a way to stop the manipulation of the ruler by back stabbing council members, find out a loyal house has gone silent, and figure out why the reason for Shamans/Druids being an option for humans are not doing their work. Horde; help get rid of the seemingly traitorous council around the King, find out what the 'evil' General is doing and defeat the Blood Trolls. So yeah, go Blizzard with your story writing.
Post by
Adamsm
*grumble grumble* Okay, so the burning Teldrassil looks really awesome....but you can't actually fly to it; there's a freaking invisible wall that keeps you from getting there, so it's possible that the art is merely the background. Hopefully the Scenario that was on Alpha will go live eventually.
Post by
Rankkor
*Le Sighs* They're doing it again, aren't they? I can't believe they're doing it again. They're making us the bad guys AGAIN. Wasn't enough to have to go through this crap in cata, and in MoP, now we gotta go at it AGAIN.
/head-desk.
So............ anyone wanna start taking any bets on who's gonna become the next
deadman
I mean Warchief? May as well start now, they're telegraphing the death of Sylvanas so aggressively they may as well replace her model with a coffin to save some time. The way things are developing, her tombstone must have been the first piece of concept art they drew before the expansion was even in the pre-planning stage.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
To be fair, little of this is out of character for Sylvanas. Her whole war strategy has been 'anything is fair so long as we win'. Having a substance discovered tailor made for world altering weapons probably had her salivating. Even Garrosh (pre MOP anyway) didn't like her tactics. I wager for her replacement we're either going to get Blaine, or Green Jesus makes a comeback. The Horde has always been really dysfunctional when you look at on an individual level, so I'm not too surprised friction is showing again.
But honestly? I wager we're going to get a Kerrigan thing for Sylvanas. Sort of a sacrificing herself against the greater enemy, and therefore redeeming herself, despite all the war crimes and murder. Just... tons and tons of murder. Blizz has a tendency to follow familiar paths when it comes to evil female characters, more's the pity. They're evil because they were turned into monsters, usually betrayed somewhere, blah blah, rinse and repeat for next major title.
Post by
Adamsm
Well since this is just re-using plot points from Cata and Mists...are you really surprised Rank? And I don't think you'll get to kill Jaina this time around, since the Kul Tiras thing seems to be about having her make up with her mom and redeem her actions in the eyes of the people; see Kul Tirans calling her a traitor, I can get behind, she did kill the ruler and she is a kinslayer...everyone else seeing her as needing redemption? That's a stretch.
Post by
Rankkor
Well since this is just re-using plot points from Cata and Mists...are you really surprised Rank?
Well..... no..... but I can still dream, can't I? D=
And I don't think you'll get to kill Jaina this time around
I've never believed I could (I just wanted to). Not since that scene in War Crimes where after doing the Purge of Dalaran she still had the balls to play the victim card AND EVERYONE AGREED WITH HER and even apologized to her.
I've long since resigned myself to the fact that not only she's gonna get away with the purge, but also with the fact that whenever those rare and far between times come that the alliance does something despicable, they'll always be whitewashed about it, never answer for it, and NOBODY calling them out on it.
Purge = Not a single critique.
Unprovoked attack on Stormheim = Forsaken are still the jerks.
We could have a quest where alliance players straight up murder and eat orc babies and blizzard will find some way to make it justifiable, and it will NEVER be brought up again.
But if there's a quest were we harm a single hair on the head of an alliance citizen, expect to be reprimanded and reminded about it for the next ten years.
That's just the way things are.
Post by
morginar
http://www.wowhead.com/news=284572/new-comic-world-of-warcraft-battle-for-azeroth-1-jaina-reunion
Just look how evil Rexar is to poor did nothng wrong and is unarmed Daelin "kill all orcs" proudmoore.
Also I take you have read the prewiev of Goldens new book Rank?
Post by
Rankkor
Nope, I'd rather read the whole book when its out. I've never liked reading a snippet of a story, only to read the whole thing several days/weeks/months later.
It would be like watching the first 15 min of a movie, only to watch the rest of it half a year away.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Rankkor
O_o
W.T.F
So the Mag'har recruitment scenario, it was updated.
So something that was bugging me was HOW we're able to travel back to the alternate timeline (we don't exactly travel back in time, we go to Draenor but present day, so for them well over 3 or 4 decades have passed since our last visit.) and why would the Bronze Dragonflight would allow us to mess with the timestream in such a way (I mean, we're straight up bringing orcs who are DEAD in our timeline from an alternate one, and since the Mag'har Leader is essentially a female version of Thrall, we're also bringing in a duplicate from an alternate timeline).
Part of me suspected that maybe another bronze dragon renegade ala Kairoz would be aiding the horde, but nope. Its Anachronos himself. THE leader of the Bronze Dragonflight gives the horde his personal blessing to go travel to an alternate timeline and bring a bunch of orcs that by the laws of time should not exist on this world.
/head-desk
I find it funny that after all of this, they're STILL trying to push the narrative that Garrosh was an awesome dude. Part of the questchain has us going to an alternate version of Siege of Orgrimmar to face an echo of garrosh. Wherein Anachronos himself says this:
Garrosh Hellscream... Such a pity how things turned out.
In countless potential timelines, he was seen as a great hero to his people. Some called him the Horde's greatest warchief.
What you saw here was one of his worst possible incarnations. A waste.
(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Yup, there was so much wasted potential in Garrosh.
Post by
Rankkor
I dunno. Seems like a tongue in cheek mention at how bad Garrosh's writing was during Cata and how he really was wasted.
Meh, his bad writing began all the way back to Wrath, where he and Varian acted like bratty spoiled manchildren, throwing temper tantrums when they didn't get their way.
I was kinda neutral towards him in TBC, and after that huuuuuuuuuuuuge quest chain to redeem the image of his father, I kinda sorta liked him, and was eager to see what would blizzard do to him.
Then the first thing he does as I step off the boat in Northrend is to spit at my feet, call me a coward, and say I wont last long >_> and right then and there I knew he'd be nothing but an unlikable jerkass I'd NEVER get to love or respect.
The really sad part is that originally, the writers wanted to make it so it was Saurfang Jr who'd replace Thall as warchief, but then during the development of the wrathgate, they changed their minds, and decided that a "tragic warchief" would make for a better story.
Can't say I agree (having a younger Saurfang as warchief would have been AWESOME), but them doing the same "tragic warchief" thing again is getting ridiculous by now.
I wonder if three expansions from now, Anachronos will also say that Sylvanas was awesome in every other timeline but ours too.
Post by
Atik
I wonder if three expansions from now, Anachronos will also say that Sylvanas was awesome in every other timeline but ours too.
I don't know how Sylvanas could be more awesome in another timeline. Unless it's maybe a timeline directed by Michael Bay or something... But he isn't exactly known for strong female characters.
Post by
morginar
Dunno, one with the wc3 team?
Post by
Rankkor
I wonder if three expansions from now, Anachronos will also say that Sylvanas was awesome in every other timeline but ours too.
I don't know how Sylvanas could be more awesome in another timeline.
I guess we have different definitions of awesome.
I really liked her in TFT. But then Cataclysm seriously turned her from a flawed anti-hero to a borderline comicbook villain. I almost (ALMOST) grew to respect her when she chose to have mercy on the worgen at the end of Silverpine, but one honorable action, amidst a sea of dishonor means very little (Just as I almost grew to respect Garrosh on the quest "To Be Horde", until he then did far worse crap than the general he defenestrated there).
I was hoping that maybe, just maybe, when they made her warchief, they'd have her do a 180° and change her ways for the better. Despite what many people said, I wasn't against her actions in Legion. She saved the horde on the broken shore, and her actions in stormheim weren't really villainous, she was just trying to ensure the survival of her race, and the "victims" of her actions were an incredibly hostile race that everybody else (alliance included) hunted down like criminals.
But just about everything related to her coming out of BfA is almost starting to make Garrosh look like girl scout.
If she wasn't a faction leader, I can tell you we've killed plenty of other raid bosses for far less than what she does in BfA.
Even one of her few redeemable points that put her above Arthas (that she loathes mindless undead, and only desires undead with free will) has been tossed out the window, with her perfectly willing to raise as skeletons both friends and foes. Her other redeemable quality (That she respects the free will of the Forsaken-Type undead, and those who do not join her are allowed to walk away) has also been tossed away too.
I dunno man, BfA is still early, there's lots of stuff we don't know, but whatever shreds of respect I had for her are long gone. The only reason I bemoan her very obviously foreshadowed death, is less because of her specifically, and more because she's the warchief, and just once I'd like to go through one expansion without having yet another warchief switcheroo.
I really hope blizzard knows what they're doing, with Vol'jin's "Loa vision" for choosing her being justified after all.
Post by
morginar
Well, if I'm a betting man, I'd bet on something like Saurfang dies. For the horde. That brings out some emotion out of Sylvanas so she can do whatever the loa wanted.
And whatever emotion and character development, isn't something needed in the first place.
Though they could fix the valk problem maybe.
Have bwon get human souls into forsaken. Those willing etc.
IMHO the valk thing in cata was just there to explain where the undead pc that joined in cata came from. And they didn't want to go with scourge regaining free will, for some reason.
Post by
Rankkor
One potential way to have her be "redeemed" (And I'm putting it in quotation marks, because after all the stuff she's done, having her do a 180° and be a hero would be every bit as awkard as when Kerrigan did it in Starcraft) is to solve the forsaken problem.
They're a cursed race. They're not the only cursed race, but they're the only one whose curse makes them sterile. The worgen are cursed too, but their curse is saddled with far more benefits than hindrances.
Should the RAS FINALLY develop a cure to undeath, that could introduce a very interesting moral dilemma. Should every single forsaken take this cure? What if there's some of them who've come to embrace their condition and even enjoy it more than their previous mortal form? Would it be okay to make this cure mandatory? And should it be left up to each individual to take it or not, would it be okay to allow the still undead forsaken to propagate their condition? knowing there's a cure in sight?
Main problem with this scenario is that even if cured of undeath (And thus removing the need of valkyrs and such), it wont undo all the stuff she's done so far. She'd have to do something like give up her life to create the cure or something along those lines. Which brings us back to: Another warchief death, and blah blah blah.
I don't really have the creativity necessary to imagine a scenario in which she's realistically redeemed WITHOUT sacrificing her life.
Even Illidan had to do it too. And he's also a girl scout compared to some of the stuff Sylvanas does in BfA. Which is saying something considering the guy kidnapped orc civilians and force-fed them demon blood to turn them into disposable cannon fodder for his army.
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