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Post by
oneforthemoney
Hmm. Mayhaps it is strange. Particularly as a mage faction, given that worgen are kinda of...druidish. At least that's where the thought generally goes for them.
Though then again, maybe worgen are going to move into Dalaran? It would make sense. They've worked with them before, and Dalaran does border Gilneas. When grounded. Not to mention they can't really live in Darnassus, being provided with all of a tree...in a tree...in the middle of the ocean and on another continent. Dalaran having lost their territory as well as a large chunk of the population buggering off thanks to the purge might give them a better temporary home.
Post by
morginar
The man screamed, and blood spurted onto the cell floor. Kel’Thuzad flinched away. Closing his eyes didn’t help; he could still hear unspeakable sounds. Ripping, shredding. Chewing. A soft, wretched mewling that he very much feared meant the undead woman was aware of her actions on some level, but unable to stop herself.
-
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/short-story/damnation/3#readmode
Even a mindless ghoul has awareness, they are unable to control themselves. The forsaken remember their time in the scourges service with displeasure. A Dk's necromancy isn't for some reason beter than the Val'lks.
1: Koltira was not a wimp in Andorhal. He was kicking ass and taking names, just like Thassarian. He called for a truce with the alliance forces because he, like a true tactician, saw the value of joining forces to take out the much more dangerous Scourge first. Unlike Sylvanas or Garrosh.
The Forsaken are victorious, and our forces are still strong. Military strategy dictates that we attack the Alliance now, while they are recovering and unaware. I have other plans, however...
We will wait. We attack Thassarian and his troops when the time is right. In the meantime, speak with Rhonda Molver and take a flight to the Bulwark, on the Plaguelands' western border. High Executor Derrington will give you your next assignment.
You will hear from me when you are needed again in Andorhal.
-
Victory, For Now
He should have attacked while the alliance rested, he didn't. It cost time and forsaken. His love for Thassarian got in the way.
I guess the silver covenant joined the hunter faction into my ski lodge.
Post by
Adamsm
The man screamed, and blood spurted onto the cell floor. Kel’Thuzad flinched away. Closing his eyes didn’t help; he could still hear unspeakable sounds. Ripping, shredding. Chewing. A soft, wretched mewling that he very much feared meant the undead woman was aware of her actions on some level, but unable to stop herself.
-
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/short-story/damnation/3#readmode
Even a mindless ghoul has awareness, they are unable to control themselves. The forsaken remember their time in the scourges service with displeasure. A Dk's necromancy isn't for some reason beter than the Val'lks.To be fair, that's speaking of original Scourge necromancy, not the Valk necromancy found later; the Valks didn't join up till shortly before the start of Wrath. It's really split on those who served the Scourge before the Valks showed up; some forsaken remember what they did before and others don't.The biggest difference between regular necromancy and Valk necromancy(beyond the whole only humans(and plot armour Sylvanas) are affected) is that so far the new Valk risen don't seem to have the issue with the mind eventually fading like the original Forsaken did. Though we haven't really seen the DK's with that issue either so they could have had a refinement with the necromancy process that the Ebon Blade has worked on.
Post by
Rankkor
Even a mindless ghoul has awareness, they are unable to control themselves. The forsaken remember their time in the scourges service with displeasure.
Its not the same and you know it. This all boils down to who is it used on, and for what reason. Necromancy is a rather horrible weapon, a cruel and painful weapon. The forsaken use it against innocent people, for petty reasons. The Knights of the Ebon Blade only use it on people who SERIOUSLY had it coming, even then they don't damn them to eternal servitude forever, they just use them then discard them when no longer needed, and they do so for far more important reasons than "
Because we can't have babies
".
Usually, their reasons hover more in the range of "
Holy crap, holy crap, a 12 foot tall enraged ogre is charging at me and will likely squash me like a grape. Ohh what's that? there's 16 corpses of Iron Horde Soldiers I just slayed laying around, I may as well raise them, have them soften the ogre up for me, and then I'll finish it off.
" And once the task is done, they go like "well, that's done, okay you stupid bastards, go back to your dirt nap"
Again, for the third time, Forsaken force the curse of undeath onto non-combatants, 99% of all the people they raise are usually people they themselves killed. And they include innocent civilians who's only crime was being human, and being in the way.
A Dk's necromancy isn't for some reason better than the Val'lks.
When did I say it was?
I said that the DKs reserve their undead cannon fodder to the battlefield alone, their low-tier undead forces like their ghouls and skeletons are made exclusively of enemies who attacked them first, and even their service is temporary, as opposed to the permanent fully aware existence as a sapient undead that forsaken force onto unwilling victims, which BTW, are non-combatants. Their permanent high-tier version of undeath, which essentially dooms the recipient to an eternity of suffering as an undead monstrosity unable to feel and be loved? that one is reserved for volunteers only. And even those volunteers are still not innocent civilians.
The Forsaken are victorious, and our forces are still strong. Military strategy dictates that we attack the Alliance now, while they are recovering and unaware. I have other plans, however...
We will wait.
We attack Thassarian and his troops when the time is right.
In the meantime, speak with Rhonda Molver and take a flight to the Bulwark, on the Plaguelands' western border. High Executor Derrington will give you your next assignment.
You will hear from me when you are needed again in Andorhal.-(Quest #26926)
He should have attacked while the alliance rested, he didn't. It cost time and forsaken. His love for Thassarian got in the way.
I highlighted the part you're ignoring.
The Knights of the Ebon Blade are not made of Leeroy Jenkins wanna-be's. Strategy and tactics are important parts on a battlefield. Not just ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Attack while the alliance is down, and sure, you wipe them out. Then what? You're off facing the scourge all by your lonesome. Because that brilliant plan has worked out flawlessly in the past for everyone who's tried it, am I right?
The right course of action was to finish off the scourge FIRST, and THEN kick the alliance's ass out of Andorhal. Not the other way around. The alliance can be dealt with. The scourge are significantly harder to take out.
Post by
morginar
Even a mindless ghoul has awareness, they are unable to control themselves. The forsaken remember their time in the scourges service with displeasure.
Its not the same and you know it. This all boils down to who is it used on, and for what reason. Necromancy is a rather horrible weapon, a cruel and painful weapon. The forsaken use it against innocent people, for petty reasons. The Knights of the Ebon Blade only use it on people who SERIOUSLY had it coming, even then they don't damn them to eternal servitude forever, they just use them then discard them when no longer needed, and they do so for far more important reasons than "
Because we can't have babies
".Like hatred and fun?
How kind... how generous our lord-commander is. Where he is flowers and sunshine, I am filled only with hatred.
It is not enough to end their miserable lives... I want them humiliated... debased!
What could be more unspeakable than to be turned into that which you hate? To dedicate your existence to eradicating a thing, and then in the end to become it?
How sad.
Take this tincture northwest to Onslaught Harbor. Apply it to their still corpses and watch what happens, but avoid the cathedral.
-
From Their Corpses, Rise!
Usually, their reasons hover more in the range of "
Holy crap, holy crap, a 12 foot tall enraged ogre is charging at me and will likely squash me like a grape. Ohh what's that? there's 16 corpses of Iron Horde Soldiers I just slayed laying around, I may as well raise them, have them soften the ogre up for me, and then I'll finish it off.
" And once the task is done, they go like "well, that's done, okay you stupid bastards, go back to your dirt nap" Take it you haven't meet thassarieans pet skeleton or played a unholy dk. Those ghouls tend to last.
Again, for the third time, Forsaken force the curse of undeath onto non-combatants, 99% of all the people they raise are usually people they themselves killed. And they include innocent civilians who's only crime was being human, and being in the way. Anyone rasied by the forsaken are free to do whatever, they can't ask spirits, so they ress them to ask. If they are killed by forsaken, then they aren't innocent as they are probably military or otherwise part of a army or hostile forces. If they are civilian then they are old residents of lordaeron, like the one in the starter who was killed in wc2 by orcs. Said civilians don't end up military though, they can't get pet murlocks and play with them for all eternity if they want. Or they can fight if they want. Free will is the corner stone of the forsaken.
A Dk's necromancy isn't for some reason better than the Val'lks.
When did I say it was?
I said that the DKs reserve their undead cannon fodder to the battlefield alone, their low-tier undead forces like their ghouls and skeletons are made exclusively of enemies who attacked them first, and even their service is temporary, as opposed to the permanent fully aware existence as a sapient undead that forsaken force onto unwilling victims, which BTW, are non-combatants. Their permanent high-tier version of undeath, which essentially dooms the recipient to an eternity of suffering as an undead monstrosity unable to feel and be loved? that one is reserved for volunteers only. And even those volunteers are still not innocent civilians. Should I quote the daily quest where ghouls are made for fun or link UH dks for how they manage their pet? Should I link Kel'thuzads observation of a ghoul so you can read how all undeads are self aware, their free will is what separate a forsaken from scourge. Should I link Sylvanas doing anything with her sisters to show you that she can feel love? Maybe the scarlet manga where a undead warrior cuts down the scarlet for they have killed his relative, (said relative bought a gem for a gift to him from a belf so a belf relative joins too).
The Forsaken are victorious, and our forces are still strong. Military strategy dictates that we attack the Alliance now, while they are recovering and unaware. I have other plans, however...
We will wait.
We attack Thassarian and his troops when the time is right.
In the meantime, speak with Rhonda Molver and take a flight to the Bulwark, on the Plaguelands' western border. High Executor Derrington will give you your next assignment.
You will hear from me when you are needed again in Andorhal.-(Quest #26926)
He should have attacked while the alliance rested, he didn't. It cost time and forsaken. His love for Thassarian got in the way.
I highlighted the part you're ignoring.
The Knights of the Ebon Blade are not made of Leeroy Jenkins wanna-be's. Strategy and tactics are important parts on a battlefield. Not just ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!.
Attack while the alliance is down, and sure, you wipe them out. Then what? You're off facing the scourge all by your lonesome. Because that brilliant plan has worked out flawlessly in the past for everyone who's tried it, am I right?
The right course of action was to finish off the scourge FIRST, and THEN kick the alliance's ass out of Andorhal. Not the other way around. The alliance can be dealt with. The scourge are significantly harder to take out.The first part of the quest has him admitting it's a more viable strategy to attack, his troops does not need rest. The humans do.
What I wanted to say is, after the alliance and horde had killed the scourge. Kolitra should go for the finishing blow on the alliance, that blue duck is just sitting there, waiting. But he didn't. Out of bro love.
Instead he gave the alliance time to move troops to surround him. If it wasn't for Sylvanas he would have been killed by peasants. Still it cost time and forsaken lives.
The ebon blade are to be ruthless. Koltira was not.
The man screamed, and blood spurted onto the cell floor. Kel’Thuzad flinched away. Closing his eyes didn’t help; he could still hear unspeakable sounds. Ripping, shredding. Chewing. A soft, wretched mewling that he very much feared meant the undead woman was aware of her actions on some level, but unable to stop herself.
-
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/short-story/damnation/3#readmode
Even a mindless ghoul has awareness, they are unable to control themselves. The forsaken remember their time in the scourges service with displeasure. A Dk's necromancy isn't for some reason beter than the Val'lks.To be fair, that's speaking of original Scourge necromancy, not the Valk necromancy found later; the Valks didn't join up till shortly before the start of Wrath. It's really split on those who served the Scourge before the Valks showed up; some forsaken remember what they did before and others don't.
The biggest difference between regular necromancy and Valk necromancy(beyond the whole only humans(and plot armour Sylvanas) are affected) is that so far the new Valk risen don't seem to have the issue with the mind eventually fading like the original Forsaken did
. Though we haven't really seen the DK's with that issue either so they could have had a refinement with the necromancy process that the Ebon Blade has worked on.
More or less my point. Though those humans risen by Valks have free will.
I have not heard of any development by the ebon blade. Is that some legion thing or a quest I have forgotten?
Post by
Rankkor
Even a mindless ghoul has awareness, they are unable to control themselves. The forsaken remember their time in the scourges service with displeasure.
Its not the same and you know it. This all boils down to who is it used on, and for what reason. Necromancy is a rather horrible weapon, a cruel and painful weapon. The forsaken use it against innocent people, for petty reasons. The Knights of the Ebon Blade only use it on people who SERIOUSLY had it coming, even then they don't damn them to eternal servitude forever, they just use them then discard them when no longer needed, and they do so for far more important reasons than "
Because we can't have babies
".Like hatred and fun?
How kind... how generous our lord-commander is. Where he is flowers and sunshine, I am filled only with hatred.
It is not enough to end their miserable lives... I want them humiliated... debased!
What could be more unspeakable than to be turned into that which you hate? To dedicate your existence to eradicating a thing, and then in the end to become it?
How sad.
Take this tincture northwest to Onslaught Harbor. Apply it to their still corpses and watch what happens, but avoid the cathedral.
-
From Their Corpses, Rise!
And who was it that they did all of those? The Scarlet Onslaught. Easily one of the most evil cults ever to disgrace azeroth. Say what you will about the ebon blade, they don't go around enslaving civilians, or mass-murdering non-combatants to bolster their numbers.
They're filled with hate, rage, a lust for battle, and a physiological need to kill constantly. But they STILL never harm an innocent. They STILL don't cross the moral boundaries that the forsaken gleefully cartwheel around on a daily basis with complete abandon.
Usually, their reasons hover more in the range of "
Holy crap, holy crap, a 12 foot tall enraged ogre is charging at me and will likely squash me like a grape. Ohh what's that? there's 16 corpses of Iron Horde Soldiers I just slayed laying around, I may as well raise them, have them soften the ogre up for me, and then I'll finish it off.
" And once the task is done, they go like "well, that's done, okay you stupid bastards, go back to your dirt nap" Take it you haven't meet thassarieans pet skeleton or played a unholy dk. Those ghouls tend to last.
Still wasn't made from an innocent bystander. Your point is null. If you take a demon, rip its wings apart, peel its skin off, then put them on you like a buffalo-bill sick cosplay, you're STILL better than a forsaken, because at least a Demon had it coming. At least a demon is a machine that exists only to corrupt and kill. You're not doing all that crap to an innocent person. Granted, someone who quite literally skins alive a demon and wears their pelts as clothing is pretty messed up in the head to begin with, but they're still several notches above the morality chain of someone who kidnaps a family of four, enslaves them in a mine, then forcefully raises them as undead monsters to live out eternity in suffering and pain for no real reason.
Again, for the third time, Forsaken force the curse of undeath onto non-combatants, 99% of all the people they raise are usually people they themselves killed. And they include innocent civilians who's only crime was being human, and being in the way.
Anyone rasied by the forsaken are free to do whatever, they can't ask spirits, so they ress them to ask.
The Dks can. And they do.
If they are killed by forsaken, then they aren't innocent as they are probably military or otherwise part of a army or hostile forces.
Tell that to these guys.
If they are civilian then they are old residents of lordaeron, like the one in the starter who was killed in wc2 by orcs.
Wrong. The gilnean civilians were not old residents of lordaeron. They were villagers who were living their lives in relative peace in a far away peninsula before they were kidnapped, worked to death in a mine, then raised as shock-troopers.
Or they were residents of hillsbrad, and while yes, they were alliance, they were STILL non-combatants, and war or not, its NEVER okay to target civilians in any armed conflict. Ever.
Fallen Human
Hillsbrad Refugee
All of these were just civilians who were trying their best to not be murdered and then raised as monsters for all eternity.
Said civilians don't end up military though, they can't get pet murlocks and play with them for all eternity if they want. Or they can fight if they want. Free will is the corner stone of the forsaken.
You're missing the point dude. I don't care if they're put on the front lines, or as farmers, or as carpenters, or as musical choreographers.
The point here, is that these are non-combatants, they are being systematically murdered
,
and then raised as monsters.
AGAINST THEIR WILL.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Should I quote the daily quest where ghouls are made for fun
Irrelevant. Those ghouls weren't made from innocent non-combatants.
or link UH dks for how they manage their pet?
Read above.
Should I link Kel'thuzads observation of a ghoul so you can read how all undeads are self aware
Whoa there.
Two things.
1: Kel'thuzad's clumsy early attempts at necromancy do not compare to the more advanced forms of necromancy practiced by neither the forsaken valkyrs, nor the Knights of the Ebon Blade. Don't mix apples to oranges.
and 2: Even on that quote itself, Kel'thuzard himself said that "on a very deep subconscious level" they are somewhat vaguely aware of their actions. This doesn't mean they're literally self-aware. Not by a long shot. Don't confuse a glimmer of intelligence from a chimp, to the ability to write a Pulitzer-winning novella. The two are completely different.
their free will is what separate a forsaken from scourge. Should I link Sylvanas doing anything with her sisters to show you that she can feel love? Maybe the scarlet manga where a undead warrior cuts down the scarlet for they have killed his relative, (said relative bought a gem for a gift to him from a belf so a belf relative joins too).
I feel like we're getting offtrack here. What does this have anything to do with what we're discussing? I fail to see the connection.
What I wanted to say is, after the alliance and horde had killed the scourge. Kolitra should go for the finishing blow on the alliance, that blue duck is just sitting there, waiting. But he didn't. Out of bro love.
Nope, the scourge were still about and still strong. Hence why he didn't kill the alliance. He wanted to wait until all scourge presense was removed before attacking the alliance. Otherwise it would have come to fighting the scourge alone. And that is never a good idea.
More or less my point. Though those humans risen by Valks have free will.
I have not heard of any development by the ebon blade. Is that some legion thing or a quest I have forgotten?
Did you miss the part where we're more or less becoming each of us just as powerful as the Lich King? (By "We" I mean DKs in general). Seriously, with each expansion we've gotten more and more abilities off the lich king himself. Necrotic Plague, Remorseless Winter, Soul Reaper, Defile, and on Legion we can even call Valks to our aid, summon abominations, etc.
Yes, The Knights of the Ebon Blade can actually raise self-aware Death Knights. Don't even need the help of no valk or anything. You see this as far as the DK starting zone, where Razovious is selecting from a pile of fallen warriors to resurrect as potential DK candidates. These resurrected members don't come back up as decomposed ghouls or skeletons. They still have mostly intact bodies, and while they weren't entirely "free", they still had a personality, capacity for speech and independent (To a degree) action without the need of their necromancer pulling their strings.
In Legion, the candidates selected for the Four Horsemen are fully autonomous fully independent free willed undead, who specifically accepted to be brought back to life.
The forsaken get a few points for never forcing anyone to join their numbers, they raise them and give them the choice. But where they lose their moral ground is that in the overwhelming majority of the cases, the person they're reanimating? They murdered them. And to make matters worse, a large bulk of their reanimated forces happen to come from innocent civilians.
Meanwhile, the Ebon Blade, never recruit from civilians (they only consider the best of the best among seasoned warriors for their numbers) and they give a choice not only to join them in their order, but also the choice to whether or not they want to be resurrected at all.
I dunno how many times do I have to repeat this =/
The main difference between the Forsaken and the Ebon Blade, is that the Ebon Blade adhere to the mantra of "Pay evil onto evil." Similar to Warlocks and soon-to-be-playable Demon Hunters. They use the weapons of the enemy against them. Giving them a spoonful of their own medicine, so to speak.
The forsaken however, adhere more to the practice of "Pay evil onto everyone who isn't one of us. Allies or enemies. Soldiers or civilians. Doesn't matter. All shall die, all shall serve".
Post by
morginar
And who was it that they did all of those? The Scarlet Onslaught. Easily one of the most evil cults ever to disgrace azeroth. Say what you will about the ebon blade, they don't go around enslaving civilians, or mass-murdering non-combatants to bolster their numbers.No, they just raise members of a faction that they consider to be evil into undeath because of the irony that said faction hate undead. And they get joy of it and do it on a daily basis.
<The draenei death knight fixes you with a cold stare, her eyes dead as the grave. A sly grin creeps across her features.>
I'll have more of the tincture prepared tomorrow. Until then, be well.
This is from when you complete the quest. It's not for some goody goody reason, but sadism. (also not said ghouls are like slaves now. Aware but without will, say what you will about the forsaken, but they don't raise undeads into slavery for amusement)
They're filled with hate, rage, a lust for battle, and a physiological need to kill constantly. But they STILL never harm an innocent. They STILL don't cross the moral boundaries that the forsaken gleefully cartwheel around on a daily basis with complete abandon.I'm sure that there won't be any killing when you get any of the horsemen's bodies?
Still wasn't made from an innocent bystander. Your point is null. If you take a demon, rip its wings apart, peel its skin off, then put them on you like a buffalo-bill sick cosplay, you're STILL better than a forsaken, because at least a Demon had it coming. At least a demon is a machine that exists only to corrupt and kill. You're not doing all that crap to an innocent person. Granted, someone who quite literally skins alive a demon and wears their pelts as clothing is pretty messed up in the head to begin with, but they're still several notches above the morality chain of someone who kidnaps a family of four, enslaves them in a mine, then forcefully raises them as undead monsters to live out eternity in suffering and pain for no real reason. Being a demon doesn't mean you're evil. Illidan and the demon hunters are evidence of that. The illidari have renegade demons that disagree with the legion. Who's to say who has what coming? I'll repeat on forsaken free will. They are doing what they want out of free will, they want to be undead out of free will.
The Dks can. And they do.DKs can ask spirits? Then they should share this knowledge to the forsaken so they can have a beter service with the recruitment. The forsaken has not shown the ability to conjure spirits.
Tell that to these guys.
Wrong. The gilnean civilians were not old residents of lordaeron. They were villagers who were living their lives in relative peace in a far away peninsula before they were kidnapped, worked to death in a mine, then raised as shock-troopers. The over glorified fanfic edge of darkness imply that there weren't few that came out of deathkneel. So I'll guess that a majority of the valk raised are from graves. No numbers are gives, so what can we say about majorities anyway. Again I'll point out that those farmers do that with free will as undead. If they want to run of they can do that, they can rest in peace. but maybe the alliance isn't the most liked faction? The forsaken don't use scourge tactics where 100% rasied are now slaves to your whim. Maybe just 33% join the forsaken.
Or they were residents of hillsbrad, and while yes, they were alliance, they were STILL non-combatants, and war or not, its NEVER okay to target civilians in any armed conflict. Ever.
Fallen Human
/fallen-human
Hillsbrad Refugee
/hillsbrad-refugee
All of these were just civilians who were trying their best to not be murdered and then raised as monsters for all eternity. Not eternity, just as long as they want, and not even bound to serve the dark lady. And doesn't the hillsbrad drink worgen blood to battle the forsaken?
If you point out that they lost southshore, their home. Shouthshore has been in war with tarren mill since the start of wow. At some point someone is going to win.
You're missing the point dude. I don't care if they're put on the front lines, or as farmers, or as carpenters, or as musical choreographers.
The point here, is that these are non-combatants, they are being systematically murdered
,
and then raised as monsters.
AGAINST THEIR WILL.
Why is this so hard to understand? They are not raised against their own will, they can return to deaths cold embrace if they want. I have yet to see the forsaken do the systematic genoside against civilians. Those in lordaeron are living like say... The western front in ww1. You can't relay complain about the risks of mustard gas when you stay or in the case of WPL move to this place. War is hell, if you want to stay out of it, stay out of it. I'll giveyou a point to gilneas. Though Sylvanas didn't want to cut them down to the last man, just not have them as a thorn in her side. Thus her mercy in the end of Silverpine.
Irrelevant. Those ghouls weren't made from innocent non-combatants.They weren't made for self defense either.
1: Kel'thuzad's clumsy early attempts at necromancy do not compare to the more advanced forms of necromancy practiced by neither the forsaken valkyrs, nor the Knights of the Ebon Blade. Don't mix apples to oranges.More of Ner'zhuls display of necromancy than Kel'T. There has been no implications that it is any diffrent now than then. EPL for example have souls of the undead you slain thank you for releasing them.
and 2: Even on that quote itself, Kel'thuzard himself said that "on a very deep subconscious level" they are somewhat vaguely aware of their actions. This doesn't mean they're literally self-aware. Not by a long shot. Don't confuse a glimmer of intelligence from a chimp, to the ability to write a Pulitzer-winning novella. The two are completely different.
Doesn't mean that undeads are golems. Have you any evidence on that they are unaware of their not so free willed scourge service?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3313064613?page=3#49
The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. The primary exception to this rule are liches, as liches bind their souls to a phylactery and then use the phylactery to generate a physical form; this process is why lich bodies look nothing like their mortal bodies, and also why you have to destroy a lich’s phylactery to truly kill them.
Their soul is there and can see but not act. A cruel fate for that ghoul pet your UH DK use.
I feel like we're getting offtrack here. What does this have anything to do with what we're discussing? I fail to see the connection.Pulse is not a requirement to feel love. which essentially dooms the recipient to an eternity of suffering as an undead monstrosity unable to feel and be loved?This statement is false.
Nope, the scourge were still about and still strong. Hence why he didn't kill the alliance. He wanted to wait until all scourge presense was removed before attacking the alliance. Otherwise it would have come to fighting the scourge alone. And that is never a good idea.After the darkmasters retreat there where no scourge in the city, there where no implications of otherwise. sure there are undeads in scholomance. But to secure the city. He should have began a assult on the alliance ASAP, he didn't
Did you miss the part where we're more or less becoming each of us just as powerful as the Lich King? (By "We" I mean DKs in general). Seriously, with each expansion we've gotten more and more abilities off the lich king himself. Necrotic Plague, Remorseless Winter, Soul Reaper, Defile, and on Legion we can even call Valks to our aid, summon abominations, etc.Just becouse a fire gives light and warmth doesn't mean it's as powerful as the sun. You have his spellbook, not his powerlevel. Unless stated otherwise.
Yes, The Knights of the Ebon Blade can actually raise self-aware Death Knights. Don't even need the help of no valk or anything. You see this as far as the DK starting zone, where Razovious is selecting from a pile of fallen warriors to resurrect as potential DK candidates. These resurrected members don't come back up as decomposed ghouls or skeletons. They still have mostly intact bodies, and while they weren't entirely "free", they still had a personality, capacity for speech and independent (To a degree) action without the need of their necromancer pulling their strings.Still wasn't plesant as the ebons rebelled.
In Legion, the candidates selected for the Four Horsemen are fully autonomous fully independent free willed undead, who specifically accepted to be brought back to life. Sounds like a small scale forsaken, maybe they should join up for recruiting. Maybe Kel't could join. Not like he liked the lick king in his short story.
The forsaken get a few points for never forcing anyone to join their numbers, they raise them and give them the choice. But where they lose their moral ground is that in the overwhelming majority of the cases, the person they're reanimating? They murdered them. And to make matters worse, a large bulk of their reanimated forces happen to come from innocent civilians.
We do not know the majority, edge of dark imply deathkneel to be a major source of forsaken.
Meanwhile, the Ebon Blade, never recruit from civilians (they only consider the best of the best among seasoned warriors for their numbers) and they give a choice not only to join them in their order, but also the choice to whether or not they want to be resurrected at all.They are a elite few with no lands to defend, they have no need to do otherwise.
I dunno how many times do I have to repeat this =/MAny more times.
The main difference between the Forsaken and the Ebon Blade, is that the Ebon Blade adhere to the mantra of "Pay evil onto evil." Similar to Warlocks and soon-to-be-playable Demon Hunters. They use the weapons of the enemy against them. Giving them a spoonful of their own medicine, so to speak.
The forsaken however, adhere more to the practice of "Pay evil onto everyone who isn't one of us. Allies or enemies. Soldiers or civilians. Doesn't matter. All shall die, all shall serve".The forskaen have not displayed a all shall die atitude, only a renegade gone legion have. They have mostly defended their lands and counterattacked. SAve gilneas, that one is on garrosh.
Not a all shall serve, as risen can return dead or do what they want, like lillian voss...
So it's like "those that attack us or we get order to kill (the next expac we will kill him though) will die and those that want to serve can do so"
Post by
Rankkor
No, they just raise members of a faction that they
consider
to be evil into undeath because of the irony that said faction hate undead.
nope. They raise members of a faction that
IS
evil. By every definition of the word.
Show me evidence of Death Knights doing that crap to someone that doesn't deserve it, like farmers, or villagers. Go on. I'm waiting.
(And no, the villagers of the Scarlet Enclave on the DK starting zone don't count. Those civilian casualties were when they were still under the Lich King's command. After they were freed, not a single soul slayed by a Death Knight was a civilian.)
It's not for some goody goody reason, but sadism.
Its still not done against an innocent bystander, but to an evil cult that was a xenophobic murdering pack of zealots who had graduated into legion worshipers at that point too.
I never said the Death Knights were nice people, I said that on a moral ground they're better than the forsaken, simply because they direct all their negative traits towards people that deserve it.
You can say that The Punisher is less noble than Batman, even though both dedicate all their life to hunting down criminals as vigilantes, and you'd be right. The Punisher hunts down criminals, and kills them in extremely sadistic ways. One issue had him stalking a pack of human trafficking sex slavers, stringing them up, and skinning them alive. Another one had him putting a bunch of Mafia hitmen on a cage with a polar bear to get mauled to death. That is some #$%&ed up crap right there. But it was done to someone who undeniably deserved it.
Compare that brand of sadism to someone like The Joker, who kills simply because he finds it funny, and you can understand why someone would say that while The Punisher is by no means a nice guy, he's still way better than The Joker.
Even if you think it doesn't matter, it DOES matter who you direct your actions towards.
Do bad things to bad people > Do bad things to anyone who crosses your path.
And you can't find evidence ANYWHERE of the Death Knights directing their wrath towards innocent bystanders. Neither when it comes to raising forces, nor when it comes to their extremely painful combat methods. They may be ruthless, they may be sadists, they may enjoy what they do a little too much, but they're still better than the forsaken. Simply because they don't kill innocents.
And doesn't the hillsbrad drink worgen blood to battle the forsaken?
They did that, out of desperation, since none of them wanted to be converted onto a forsaken upon death. Its important to point out that NONE of them wanted to be a worgen, but they were backed up against a corner, and had no other way out other than to drink the blood, or risk eternal suffering as a forsaken.
If you point out that they lost southshore, their home. Shouthshore has been in war with tarren mill since the start of wow. At some point someone is going to win.
Winning a war is all well and good, but targeting the civilian population is a no-no. No matter what the context, or what the conflict is. Once you've won, you don't get to just butcher the civilians. If you do, you're a monster. As simple as that. So no, Sylvanas doesn't get to use the war as an excuse for what she did to the civilian population of the northern eastern kingdoms.
Note that I do not condemn their raising of enemy soldiers. That's a risk every soldier accepts when they march onto an armed conflict. But civilians should never have to pay the price for someone else's politics.
They are not raised against their own will
/facepalm.
Yes they are!!!. Point me to any human who actually says "boy oh boy, I can't wait to be a zombie when I die. I bet its gonna be FUN".
They were so scared crapless of being forsaken that several of these civilians prefered to drink werewolf blood and turn into ANOTHER type of monster, rather than be a forsaken. There are fewer fates worse than an eternity as undead in this setting. Even sylvanas herself admits that there is no joy or pleasure in being a forsaken.
Hell, half her lines when you click on her are:
"
What joy is there in this curse?
"
"
What are we if not slaves to this torment?
"
Ohh yeah, that sounds like a lovely way to spend eternity don't you think? And this is besides the fact that they were also murdered against their will in the first place. Or are you going to tell me now that they ALSO wanted to be killed too? Are you serious dude?
I have yet to see the forsaken do the systematic genoside against civilians.
Then I suggest you do
this quest
again.
Those are no soldiers you're murdering and raising as eternal accursed monsters. Those are refugees. Civilians. Innocent bystanders, who fled one massacre, only to walk right into another one.
Do note that they only took up arms against the forsaken and drank werewolf blood, AFTER the forsaken attacked them first and raised a good chunk of their numbers as fellow forsaken. Which itself happened AFTER the forsaken plague-bombed their homes and rendered it uninhabitable by anything alive for the next couple of centuries or something. You can only beat a man into a corner for so long before they start to beat back.
And then you still say that the Ebon Knights are just as bad as the forsaken? point me to ONE instance of the Ebon Knights doing anything even remotely like this to a GROUP OF NON-COMBATANT CIVILIANS!!!!!!!!!
They weren't made for self defense either.
It doesn't matter what they were made FOR. What matters is what they're made FROM.
Big key difference here.
If we get down to it, Warlocks use some really grizzly methods to fuel their spells too. They rip the living souls out of their victims, store them in a tiny crystal, and then use that crystal to power up their spells, burning off the soul in the process, rendering them deader than dead.
But have you any evidence of playable-warlocks doing any of that crap to innocent bystanders? nope. So they obviously don't use those souls exclusively for self-defense. But they don't use souls of innocent people, only criminals, monsters, and other type of beings that really had it coming.
They have mostly defended their lands and counterattacked. SAve gilneas, that one is on garrosh.
This argument lost all validity the moment they rolled into EPL, Arathi, and Hillsbrad. That was no defense of their land, that was specific and blatant expansionism. And you can't pin that one on Garrosh either, since his orders were exclusively to Gilneas.
Even then, he specifically forbade the use of plague (Which the forsaken ignored) and unless stated otherwise, I highly doubt he would have approved how the civilians were treated (Given that back then he still had some honor, as seen on the Stonetalon questline). Which included genocide, experimentation, slavery, and torture.
I could really go on on the many many MANY atrocities that the Forsaken have done, that the Ebon Knight have never even glanced about. Plenty of them completely unnecessary, and full-blown overkill on evilness. Do you remember that gigantic 15-foot tall abomination used by the forsaken on Gilneas? do you really think that one is made from volunteers too?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
morginar
nope. They raise members of a faction that IS evil. By every definition of the word. Evil is subjective. not objective. Like paladins say. Evil is point of view. The scarlets consider them self good. Thus they can still use light.
Show me evidence of Death Knights doing that crap to someone that doesn't deserve it, like farmers, or villagers. Go on. I'm waiting.
Thats just unfair... Beside the shadow tower and the dk starter there isn't much ebon blade. Though the Unholy trainer does kill a druid infiltrator... After they become "good".
In cata/mop/wod there is no ebon blade lore at all. Some dks. But nothing from the faction. So I am unable to show "evil" moments becouse there isn't any moments.
Its still not done against an innocent bystander, but to an evil cult that was a xenophobic murdering pack of zealots who had graduated into legion worshipers at that point too.
I never said the Death Knights were nice people, I said that on a moral ground they're better than the forsaken, simply because they direct all their negative traits towards people that deserve it. Who is to say who deserve what. The forsaken can say that the alliance invaders deserve it. And the Hillsbrad humans, who they have been at war with. Deserve it. It's a bit subjective. Though I see your point.
You can say that The Punisher is less noble than Batman, even though both dedicate all their life to hunting down criminals as vigilantes, and you'd be right. The Punisher hunts down criminals, and kills them in extremely sadistic ways. One issue had him stalking a pack of human trafficking sex slavers, stringing them up, and skinning them alive. Another one had him putting a bunch of Mafia hitmen on a cage with a polar bear to get mauled to death. That is some #$%&ed up crap right there. But it was done to someone who undeniably deserved it.
Compare that brand of sadism to someone like The Joker, who kills simply because he finds it funny, and you can understand why someone would say that while The Punisher is by no means a nice guy, he's still way better than The Joker.
Even if you think it doesn't matter, it DOES matter who you direct your actions towards.
Do bad things to bad people > Do bad things to anyone who crosses your path.
And you can't find evidence ANYWHERE of the Death Knights directing their wrath towards innocent bystanders. Neither when it comes to raising forces, nor when it comes to their extremely painful combat methods. They may be ruthless, they may be sadists, they may enjoy what they do a little too much, but they're still better than the forsaken. Simply because they don't kill innocents.
Chaotic evil and lawful evil are both evil. Evil is a subjective term and one can't say who is more evil.
I'm curious. What will you say if the death knights kill a bunch of argent to get Tirions body? Or Arathi for Trollbane?
/facepalm.
Yes they are!. Point me to any human who actually says "boy oh boy, I can't wait to be a zombie when I die. I bet its gonna be FUN".The cult of the damned?
More to the point. forsaken can't ask a corpse what it want, they raise it and then ask.
Or are you going to tell me now that they ALSO wanted to be killed too? Are you serious dude? I don't. Maybe some Leeroy acted like they wanted to die. But no one wants to die. Not even the undead, thus they defend their lands.
Then I suggest you do this quest again.
Those are no soldiers you're murdering and raising as eternal accursed monsters. Those are refugees. Civilians. Innocent bystanders, who fled one massacre, only to walk right into another one. Well to be fair they moved inland into forsaken ter... I mean. Yea. It's a dark quest. Bit out of place for blizzard. I mean, the dk starter they have the "you work for darth arthur" thing. But here... WHY?
But have you any evidence of playable-warlocks doing any of that crap to innocent bystanders? I did that in Westfall on my warlock. And I hear one of the now deleted vanilla lock quests was to kill a noble who found their lair.
This argument lost all validity the moment they rolled into EPL, Arathi, and Hillsbrad. That was no defense of their land, that was specific and blatant expansionism. Don't you mean WPL? In WPL both sides where there alliance and horde. No one with a sane mind want a hostile force that close to your capital.
Hillsbrad was just ending the southshore vs tarren mill. Plus the dwarves moved to invade the forsaken. Those pocket nukes where to halt a invasion. Can't say much about arathi though. It seems partially expansion. Yet they don't do much about it. going from what I hear in legion. They liberated Stormgarde from syndicate.
Even then, he specifically forbade the use of plague (Which the forsaken ignored) and unless stated otherwise, I highly doubt he would have approved how the civilians were treated (Given that back then he still had some honor, as seen on the Stonetalon questline). Which included genocide, experimentation, slavery, and torture. The
BLIGHT
saved forsaken lives otherwise wasted on the field of battle. My stance on why Garrosh banned blight was that he aproved of it as much as he did warlocks. He herd of wrathgate maybe. Maybe he wanted "warrirs dying thrashing and bloody on fields of battle" and not acid bombs. Just because Garrosh doesn't like it doesn't make it worse than him. Warlocks are above garrosh by far.
I could really go on on the many many MANY atrocities that the Forsaken have done, that the Ebon Knight have never even glanced about. Plenty of them completely unnecessary, and full-blown overkill on evilness. Do you remember that gigantic 15-foot tall abomination used by the forsaken on Gilneas? do you really think that one is made from volunteers too? Might be a abomination made by the scourge that got free will?
I think we should agree to disagree. Debating the shades of grey can be rather pointless. Especially when one side haven't got much to judge on.
Perhaps I should say "I want the ebon blade darker and the forsaken brighter in legion"
Post by
Rankkor
Evil is subjective. not objective.
Not always. There are some cases where there's just no room for interpretation. And the Scarlet Crusaders are one of those cases. There's not a lot of room for interpretation here. They're a xenophobic genocidal cult of zealots who worship demons. Whatever happens to them, they earned it three times over.
It doesn't matter if THEY believe themselves to be good, they're not. A cat can think himself a lion all he wants, but a lion, he's not.
Also, being able to use the light doesn't make anyone good, nor does using shadow automatically make anyone evil. Light and Shadow are just magic, no different than arcane or fel, or nature. A person can be capable of wielding the light and yet commit unspeakable acts of horror upon their fellow men.
Thats just unfair... Beside the shadow tower and the dk starter there isn't much ebon blade.
It still counts. We've seen individual agents of the ebon blade during cataclysm and MoP and WoD. Not much from the faction as a whole, but still, up until this point, we've not seen them do any of the stuff the forsaken have done.
I'm curious. What will you say if the death knights kill a bunch of argent to get Tirions body?
Only then would I agree with you that they've crossed a moral boundary. But given that they don't have to do that during the resurrection of nazgrim, I highly doubt they'll have to do the same for the other 3. After all, unlike the forsaken, they're not raising anyone against their will, they're asking first, raising later.
More to the point. forsaken can't ask a corpse what it want, they raise it and then ask.
You don't have to ask anyone.
NOBODY
wants to be a forsaken. That's as common sense as saying "Nobody wants to have AIDS" in real life. Absolutely nobody wants it. Even forsaken themselves don't want to be forsaken (Again, half the lines of Sylvanas is asking herself what joy could there be in her accursed existence, and lamenting how all of them are nothing but slaves to their torment).
What better evidence than the villagers of Southshore, who preferred to drink werewolf blood and turn into a different type of monster, because even THAT is preferable to being a forsaken.
Once they're raised, the only thing the forsaken "ask" is if they want to hang out, but they don't ask permission before inflicting an eternity of torment and suffering onto someone who did NOT want to be an accursed freak for all eternity.
At least the Ebon Blade make sure that the potential candidates actually want to come back first.
I don't. Maybe some Leeroy acted like they wanted to die. But no one wants to die.
Then you can see the morality issue when the forsaken go around murdering innocent civilians who very much wanted to live, just because they wanted to bolster their numbers.
At least the ebon blade only recruit from people who already died. They don't just go "Ohh man, that warrior is very very skilled, lets kill him, raise him, then ask him if he wants to join us". They just wait until said warrior dies on his own, then ask if he wants to come back, THEN raise him.
Are you starting to see the difference now?
Well to be fair they moved inland into forsaken ter...
Nope, they were PUSHED inland, they already lived in Southshore, and were pretty happy about staying there until their lands were turned into Azeroth's version of Chernobyl.
Perhaps I should say "I want the ebon blade darker and the forsaken brighter in legion"
Fair enough. Though I hope it doesn't happen. The Ebon Blade are as dark as they have to be right now. They're easily one of the most ruthless and merciless fighting forces on Azeroth, and wherever they mobilize in force, they leave devastation in their wake. They use some pretty brutal methods to fight their enemies, and don't fight clean at all.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Well, according to Arthas book, the Light seems to be capable of moral judgement to a degree, abandoning Arthas while he was purging Stratholme. The argument could be said that it was because Arthas knew it was wrong to slaughter all those people that the Light left him, and that since the Crusade thought they were right they could use it.
However, the argument could equally be said that the Light remained with the Crusaders because they were, generally, directing it against the undead. Forsaken and Scourge seem to be largely alike in the eyes of the Light, both being an affront to that natural order, so it should be no surprise that the Crusade's use of it primarily against that would work, and more occasionally killing the odd living that wandered into their sights might not be enough to rob the whole Crusade of their power. The Light seems to work on a more individual basis anyway, and who knows? Many crusaders didn't even use the Light but were just soldiers.
Post by
Rankkor
the thing is, the crusade uses the light against the living just as much as against the undead.
The only reason the light hasn't abandoned them, but it abandoned Arthas, is because its driven by faith. You need to BELIEVE in your cause, unwaveringly, unflinchingly, without hesitation, remorse, or doubts. As long as your faith is unbreakable, it doesn't matter how many horrible crimes you make, the light will aid you.
Its why even the Twilight Hammer, a cult dedicated to ending the world and serving the living embodiment of chaos and shadow, still has
paladins
on their group. Being good has nothing to do with one's capacity to wield the light. All you need is faith, and discipline in what you believe in and the cause you're fighting for.
Whether your belief and your cause are good or not, is irrelevant.
Arthas lost his connection to the light, simply because he knew what he was doing was wrong, and his conviction faltered. Its the same reason why Tirion briefly lost his powers. His fellow brothers "stripped him" off his blessing, and his faith wavered. Even though his cause actually was righteous, but he hesitated, he showed doubts.
I highly doubt that notion that "The light sees forsaken and scourge as alike": Otherwise forsaken would be wholly unable to wield the light at all. Which we've seen is most certainly
not the case
.
Post by
Rankkor
In another topic, wow, from the Illidan novel, here's the actual ritual that every single Demon Hunter must undergo before they "graduate".
Sheesh, and I thought the Scourge Death Knights had it rough.
Step 1: Train yourself in the art of combat with a Warglaive.
Step 2: Kill a demon. In Vandel's case, it is a felhound (he has personal issues with them, one ate his son).
Step 3: Eat the demon's heart and drink its blood.
Step 4: Illidan zaps you with fel lightning.The demon's spirit begins trying to take over you.
Step 5: Kill the demon again in your dreams and eat its heart once more.
Step 6: Receive visions of the Legion destroying countless worlds across infinite universes while the demon spirit taunts you.
Step 7: Tear your eyes out at the sheer horror of it all.
Step 8: Wake up blind and possibly insane, don't listen to the demon spirit while you wait for spectral sight to start working.
Step 9: Get tattooed to keep the demon spirit from overwhelming you
Step 10: After going through all above, find out that your body turned into (partly) one of the demons'. In Vandel's case, his was covered with scales, which led him to attempt to cut them off and almost died from it. Most of those who succeed in the ritual suicided (intentionally or unintentionally) on this step.
All in all, only 1 in 5 recruits ever survive the whole process.
Its kinda ironic that Illidan, the OG demon hunter never did most of these steps though. He just was a sorcerer, got his eyes burned out by sargeras, did a bunch of crap during the war of the ancients, and then he spent 10000 years imprisoned. So who exactly devised such a specific ritual to replicate a demon hunter? Makes me wonder how exactly OTHER demon hunters showed up, its not like Illidan had any time to train any apprentices during the war of the ancients. And before it he was just a sorcerer who failed at being a druid. And after it he was in jail for thousands of years.
That's one big gaping plot hole now that I think about it.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
He probably came up with it sitting in his cell and thinking about how much he hates everybody. Lots of kooky ideas come to you during 10,000 years of doing &*!@ all but thinking about the people who slammed you into a cell beneath the earth.
But seriously, there were other demon hunters. One even went to Outland and had been helping Illidin train the new demon hunters before leaving to stand around Nagrand. They probably developed the rituals after the fact. Illidin just sort of streamlined the process.
Post by
Rankkor
Yeah, there were others. My question is: Where did they came from? Illidan was the OG Demon Hunter, but he never had any chance to impart his knowledge onto any apprentices, and while he definitely came up with really sick and twisted rituals while stewing in his cell for thousands of years, how exactly was he able to pass them on to his followers?
Even during the third war, there were many demon hunters around, where did they learned their arts? Who helped them develop and refine their techniques? When Illidan traveled to outland he already had several full-fledged demon hunters helping him train his new generation of followers, Atruis included. So where did those came from? When were they trained?
I know I'm nitpicking, but it just bugs me T_T
Post by
Adamsm
Right from Warcraft 3, the unit description :P
Demon Hunters are dark, shadowy warriors who are shunned by the greater night elf society. They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. They wield demonically charged warblades in battle and even call upon demonic energies to augment their formidable combat skills. Although they are counted as some of the mightiest warriors within the Night Elves' society, the Demon Hunters are always maligned and misunderstood for making their selfless pact with darkness.Sounds like the Demon Hunters were the opposite of the Warden's like how the Druids were the opposite of the Priestesses.
Post by
Rankkor
The Chin is dead. Long live the Chin.
Post by
morginar
It seems that king shin and queen midriff no more faced a "massive" army. Sylvanas retreats, cus too many presumbly. Chin fight to bitter end, like a leeroy wannabe (these guys want to die)
Jaina was there and blames horde for his death and Genn seems to be her creature. Kirin jaina tor dont wanna help cuz horde...
Jaina you can teleport! It's like Halls of reflection all over again, she can save lives if she ports...
Post by
Rankkor
It seems that king shin and queen midriff no more faced a "massive" army. Sylvanas retreats, cus too many presumbly. Chin fight to bitter end, like a leeroy wannabe (these guys want to die)
Jaina was there and blames horde for his death and Genn seems to be her creature. Kirin jaina tor dont wanna help cuz horde...
Jaina you can teleport! It's like Halls of reflection all over again, she can save lives if she ports...
Not really.
I saw a video of the whole thing
And at no point were the horde and the alliance fighting together. It was all alliance forces, which means the horde forces were on a completely separate part of the broken shore, facing the exact same overwhelming odds that the alliance was.
Both sides sent their troops there, both sides got overwhelmed, both sides were forced to retreat, both sides lost people (Horde lost Vol'jin, Alliance lost Varian, Argent Crusade lost Tirion, and there were many other casualties).
Jaina blames the horde because of course she does. She's nothing but a temper-tantrum hag at this point. She's basically WOTLK-Varian with boobs now. Remember how back then Varian would pin the blame of EVERYTHING that happened on the horde? Including when the nightmare began taking everyone in stormwind? Exactly.
That's all that this is.
Post by
morginar
The cinematic is still incomplete. Team blue and red might be with each other or not. But Jaina is a anoying girl regardless. Or a dreadlord. Makes sense for her to be one, why else rebot the war for such a petty reason.
Also love those spaceships warping in. Or teleported. lootship 2.0 : demons edit?
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