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Post by
oneforthemoney
I guess. But it still seems awfully ham fisted and shady. I mean, sure Tirion wasn't exactly on a burn them all stance in terms of the Ebon Blade or current Lich King, but still. Come on. Pretty big 180 for his character here.
Unless he agrees for revenge on the ones who killed him.
Oh God.
He's going to be the replacement Sylvanas isn't he? Like how Jaina took on King Chin's kill 'em all characteristics when he grew out of it.
Post by
Rankkor
I guess. But it still seems awfully ham fisted and shady. I mean, sure Tirion wasn't exactly on a burn them all stance in terms of the Ebon Blade or current Lich King, but still. Come on. Pretty big 180 for his character here.
Hence why I said he doesn't belong there. I get that they need a zealot. One of the four horsemen was a zealot so devoted to the light, that even in death it would obey him (Sir Zeliek) but that position is already filled by Sally.
The only way I can see this fit is if its handled from the angle of "He is so devoted to duty that even though he's been killed, now that he was brought back, he sees it as an opportunity to continue protecting azeroth". But while that angle fits his character, it makes him VERY out of place within the Knights of the Ebon Hold.
Unless he agrees for revenge on the ones who killed him.
Oh God.
He's going to be the replacement Sylvanas isn't he? Like how Jaina took on King Chin's kill 'em all characteristics when he grew out of it.
Jesuschrist man, don't say that out loud!!!! blizzard could hear you. But yes, its become a repetitive pattern that in order to redeem a character, all their negative traits are usually dumped into another character. Hopefully that's not gonna happen anymore.
I can dream. Right? right?
Post by
oneforthemoney
Actually, I meant he might turn into the good side to lead the Forsaken and they wipe Sylvanas off the map after making her the new bad guy. She's already pretty far down that path already. They might have realized they can't turn that train wreck around and Garrosh her. Maybe even brainwashed or turned by the Legion, which might explain her disappearance from the shore.
As for Tirion, probably more like they wanted the Ashbringer angle again. Which is, again, very stupid.
Post by
Rankkor
Actually, I meant he might turn into the good side to lead the Forsaken and they wipe Sylvanas off the map after making her the new bad guy. She's already pretty far down that path already. They might have realized they can't turn that train wreck around and Garrosh her.
I'd prefer that they didn't.
I'd be okay with that if
A: we hadn't already lost so many horde leaders
and
B: She wasn't made warchief.
You understand we're going through warchiefs like cigarettes now, right? the position is soon gonna stop meaning anything, if the current wielder will only stay in it for a single expansion, then its off to a graveyard. I mean jesus, we're going 3-for-3 here, in a row. First garrosh, then vol'jin, and now sylvanas? I'd like that annoying trend to stop. At least until the alliance has lost 2 high-kings or something.
For good or ill, she's warchief now, and I'd like it if we could go through at least 2 expansions without having a warchief killed. SPECIALLY forcing horde players to kill their own leaders.
Maybe even brainwashed or turned by the Legion, which might explain her disappearance from the shore.
She's not disappeared. She shows up extensively on several zones, the most prominent one is Stormheim. But she also makes a presence in dalaran after the shore incident.
As for Tirion, probably more like they wanted the Ashbringer angle again. Which is, again, very stupid.
I don't follow. Please elaborate.
Post by
oneforthemoney
In original Naxx one of the horsemen was Morgraine the elder.
Post by
Rankkor
But in the second incarnation of Naxx, none of the horsemen were related to the ashbringer at all =/
So I agree with ya, if that's the angle they were going for, its a lame angle. Just as lame (but not quite) as the "There must always be a lich king" crap. Even 6 years later, I'm still sore about that bit.
Post by
Atik
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
If Sylvannas goes evil, I'll petition the $%^& out of Blizzard to let players join her.
Post by
oneforthemoney
But in the second incarnation of Naxx, none of the horsemen were related to the ashbringer at all =/
So I agree with ya, if that's the angle they were going for, its a lame angle. Just as lame (but not quite) as the "There must always be a lich king" crap. Even 6 years later, I'm still sore about that bit.
I think it is. There's really not other explanation as to why they would think it is a good idea. Matter of fact, Saurfang the younger would have been a much better choice. Sometimes it seems like all Blizz knows right now is how to play to nostalgia.
In fact, one of the few good things to come out of WoD was Yrel. Not necessarily for the character, but for what she represented, which was a try for a new character, and to make her significant. It wasn't all that well done, but amid the mess of 'remember this?' that was WoD, it was something.
Post by
Rankkor
But in the second incarnation of Naxx, none of the horsemen were related to the ashbringer at all =/
So I agree with ya, if that's the angle they were going for, its a lame angle. Just as lame (but not quite) as the "There must always be a lich king" crap. Even 6 years later, I'm still sore about that bit.
I think it is. There's really not other explanation as to why they would think it is a good idea. Matter of fact, Saurfang the younger would have been a much better choice. Sometimes it seems like all Blizz knows right now is how to play to nostalgia.
In fact, one of the few good things to come out of WoD was Yrel. Not necessarily for the character, but for what she represented, which was a try for a new character, and to make her significant. It wasn't all that well done, but amid the mess of 'remember this?' that was WoD, it was something.
Ohh yes, Saurfang Jr would have been an AMAZING choice. Its still early, so obviously there's still time, we must always remember how close anduin came to dying in MoPs 5.1 patch before it was changed prior to the patch going live.
I'm just not happy with this roster. Nazgrim and Sally? Hell yes. but Trollbane and Tirion need to be replaced. Trollbane by Saurfang Jr. Tirion with.......... I dunno......... Maraad? who would you propose for fourth member?
Post by
oneforthemoney
I dunno. I feel like Stromgarde has been pretty unfairly treated all things considered. They were originally pretty significant, but then the ruler died, his heir apparent is a joke, and his nephew was off fighting the good fight in Honour Hold. I'm less annoyed their getting someone so much as this perhaps not the right place for it.
That being said, I think one of those slots should have gone to a blood elf. Aside from humans, they are the main race with story tied to the Scourge. It would have been more apt, I think.
Hell, have Vereesa get knocked off and raise her. That would be something, and be somewhat karmic for the whole purge thing.
Post by
Rankkor
Trollbane =/= stromgarde. Just because he gets raised, doesn't mean the city is getting any relevance any time soon. Prince Galen was turned into a forsaken, yet the city is still a stinkhole in the middle of nowhere.
As you said, if they want to throw a bone to stromgarde, raising a dude that has been dead and irrelevant for centuries isn't the right approach. Particularly since he's not even gonna be alliance, nor would he even care to restore his kingdom to its former glory, given that he's dead and all.
I second the notion for a blood elf DK, but there aren't all that many viable candidates. Vereesa is still taking care of her twins, so I highly doubt anything is gonna happen to her any time soon. Plus there's an even bigger reason that makes her unfit for the role
We gotta remember that to even be considered entry into the Ebon Blade order, is to be an extraordinary and distinguished fighter in life. Then there's the Four Horsemen, the elite among other elites, and one of the main requirements to be a member of this particular cadre is that you must have been one hell of a fighter in life. They don't just accept a common chump. You must have been a memetic ass kicker to be considered. With that in mind....... what exactly has Vereesa done in life to be considered into an elite group within an already elite group?
All she ever did was get captured, and get knocked up. She's one of the biggest wimps ever produced by quel'thalas, and a fraction of a shadow that her two elder sisters are. Whereas Sylvanas is considered to be the best archer on azeroth, capable of putting an arrow between the eyes of an eagle mid-flight at several yards away, and Alleria was a legendary hero and veteran of the second war, Vereesa was just a moody Damsel in Distress who accomplished very little during the second or third war, and had to be saved over and over and over and over again.
She had to be rescued by Sylvanas during Tides of Darkness, had to be rescued by Rhonin (several times in fact) during Day of the Dragon, had to be rescued yet again during the Stormrage novel (Though in her defense, she was far from the only one, most of the cast was trapped in the nightmare), etc etc.
Hardly what I'd call material for the most terror-inducing elite force of the dead.
Post by
morginar
She's one of the biggest wimps ever produced by quel'thalas
Bigger than Kolitra and Aethas?
I wouln't mind something like a barov (the vanilla dk/talky skull questgiver in MoP) for the new rivandare. And Dark'khan, (he might be a bastard, but he has a stylish hat).
Over Trollbane and Tirion, the former is too human, if they want another humanic rider, they should pick a forsaken. The later is just, urgh, can't he just die if he gonna die? He is a holy paladin, making him unholy is just out of place.
I hope someone points out the darkness of the ebon blade, also lampshading that forsaken have a higher moral ground than the ebon blade. They don't seem to be making friends.
Post by
Jameja
A: we hadn't already lost so many horde leaders
Isn't Vol'Jin only missing?
And also I noticed a few pages back that you were looking for someone to confirm Chronicle or ask about Chronicle stuff. I can provide some answers if you are still looking for them.
Post by
Rankkor
She's one of the biggest wimps ever produced by quel'thalas
Bigger than Kolitra and Aethas?
Yes. Koltira was a badass in Icecrown, even if we had to bail his ass out of the fire in the DK starting zone. And he was also just as badass in Andorhal, it was only due to treachery that he was abducted in the first place.
High contrast to vereesa, where she needs someone to save her butt every single time she makes an appearance.
As for Aethas, he's not so much as a wimp, more like he's underused. He was just another NPC among the masses, until he was incarcerated in 5.1, milled about in 5.2, and was in Siege of Orgrimmar in 5.4
Whatever else can be said about him, at least he's only needed rescuing once.
I hope someone points out the darkness of the ebon blade, also lampshading
that forsaken have a higher moral ground than the ebon blade.
They don't seem to be making friends.
What? Hell no. Not really, not even close.
The forsaken forcefully raise people into undeath. Soldiers and civilians alike. 90% of their recruits are usually people they themselves killed. Its true that once they've arisen, they're given the choice to join the forsaken, or just wander off unharmed, but the actual curse of undeath is forced upon them without giving them any say in the matter. Worse yet, because of the way it works, the trauma they receive in battle causes them to raise in a mindless frenzy, causing them to attack their former allies before they regain the use of reason. Imagine the trauma that can give to a person.
Forsaken Recruitment Speech: "
Hello, sorry buddy, I know you were just a harmless farmer trying to make an honest living, but we need more hands on deck, so I killed ya, then raised your corpse, in your rage you murdered all your friends, and now you're a rotten and diseased freak nobody is ever gonna love. Wanna hang out?
"
High contrast to the Ebon Blade. For one thing, they don't kill civilians to bolster their numbers. Quality over quantity is their motto. They only pick the cream of the crop among azeroth's finest fighters, which means no innocents are forced into their numbers. The people they pick to join them are also, for the most part, NOT people they themselves killed. They pick from people who fell in battle against other opponents, and give them a second chance to continue performing their duty. So its not like they saw a healthy skilled fighter, killed him, then raised him to recruit him, more like they saw a healthy skilled fighter, fall in battle for a cause he believed in, and raised him to give him a chance to continue fighting for what he believed. Lastly, they ask for permission once the ritual is done. Should the potential trainee refuse to spend the rest of their existence as an undead monster, they undo the ritual and let the poor bastard rest in peace. They don't just "cut them loose" and let them eek out a meager existence as a monster that will forever be shunned by everyone they knew.
Ebon Blade Recruitment Speech: "
Greetings, we're sorry to inform you that you fell in battle. We know it sucks, but we're offering the opportunity for you to take up your blade once more, and fight for what you held dear in life. You should know that this is not an easy existence, there will be pain, there will be suffering, but we believe you can endure it, should you choose to accept it. If you're not happy with this offer, let us know, and we will undo the ritual and let you go back to your eternal rest. Otherwise, welcome to the Order of the Ebon Blade, Brother/Sister.
"
Post by
oneforthemoney
That was a pretty good comparison. You should write motivational speeches.
Post by
Rankkor
seriously? =D
Post by
morginar
She's one of the biggest wimps ever produced by quel'thalas
Bigger than Kolitra and Aethas?
Yes. Koltira was a badass in Icecrown, even if we had to bail his ass out of the fire in the DK starting zone. And he was also just as badass in Andorhal, it was only due to treachery that he was abducted in the first place.
High contrast to vereesa, where she needs someone to save her butt every single time she makes an appearance.
As for Aethas, he's not so much as a wimp, more like he's underused. He was just another NPC among the masses, until he was incarcerated in 5.1, milled about in 5.2, and was in Siege of Orgrimmar in 5.4
Whatever else can be said about him, at least he's only needed rescuing once.
Kolitra is a whimp in Andorhal, not some badass, he let's his yaoi love for Thassasrian get infront of victory. That, my friend. Is a whimp.
In dk starter he was a damsel in distress for is yaoi bff.
We find him in dragonblight, helping him out...
If some datamined quests is to go for, the dk kills his way down into UC and rescue Kolitra. Though I only heard about it because of horde complaint about killing their own. So it's probably gone now.
Aethas is a wimp due to being a kirin tor bootlicker. Evrything about him is kirin tor, even after the purge!
Being a damsel in distress isn't the only way to be a wimp, and it's hard for me. In my opinion, to say who's the worst of quel'thalas. MM quest has windrunner being somewhat helpful, though she walks into a trap, because she want to find Alleria (paladins didn't tell her?). Whilst she is the worst of the windrunner, and her title is a self proclaimed one, rather than merit as with Sylvanas... Aww whom am I kidding, I'm going to hate her in my ski lodge. But I'm going to hate Aethas on my mage too. And Kolitra, should I roll a DK. But who's to earn the most ire? I can not tell. As death knights build their horsemen, I hear nothing of mages and hunters.
I hope someone points out the darkness of the ebon blade, also lampshading
that forsaken have a higher moral ground than the ebon blade.
They don't seem to be making friends.
What? Hell no. Not really, not even close.
The forsaken forcefully raise people into undeath. Soldiers and civilians alike. 90% of their recruits are usually people they themselves killed. Its true that once they've arisen, they're given the choice to join the forsaken, or just wander off unharmed, but the actual curse of undeath is forced upon them without giving them any say in the matter. Worse yet, because of the way it works, the trauma they receive in battle causes them to raise in a mindless frenzy, causing them to attack their former allies before they regain the use of reason. Imagine the trauma that can give to a person.
Forsaken Recruitment Speech: "
Hello, sorry buddy, I know you were just a harmless farmer trying to make an honest living, but we need more hands on deck, so I killed ya, then raised your corpse, in your rage you murdered all your friends, and now you're a rotten and diseased freak nobody is ever gonna love. Wanna hang out?
"
High contrast to the Ebon Blade. For one thing, they don't kill civilians to bolster their numbers. Quality over quantity is their motto. They only pick the cream of the crop among azeroth's finest fighters, which means no innocents are forced into their numbers. The people they pick to join them are also, for the most part, NOT people they themselves killed. They pick from people who fell in battle against other opponents, and give them a second chance to continue performing their duty. So its not like they saw a healthy skilled fighter, killed him, then raised him to recruit him, more like they saw a healthy skilled fighter, fall in battle for a cause he believed in, and raised him to give him a chance to continue fighting for what he believed. Lastly, they ask for permission once the ritual is done. Should the potential trainee refuse to spend the rest of their existence as an undead monster, they undo the ritual and let the poor bastard rest in peace. They don't just "cut them loose" and let them eek out a meager existence as a monster that will forever be shunned by everyone they knew.
Ebon Blade Recruitment Speech: "
Greetings, we're sorry to inform you that you fell in battle. We know it sucks, but we're offering the opportunity for you to take up your blade once more, and fight for what you held dear in life. You should know that this is not an easy existence, there will be pain, there will be suffering, but we believe you can endure it, should you choose to accept it. If you're not happy with this offer, let us know, and we will undo the ritual and let you go back to your eternal rest. Otherwise, welcome to the Order of the Ebon Blade, Brother/Sister.
"
The forsaken recruit from the battle field, this is true, though DK have the army of the dead CD... But more came from graveyards and the like. And as for the berserk Resurrection. It's a uncommon thing if to go by the cdev. And not it's intention. You are not forced into military, we see mushroom farmers (or intended as such) we see a wealthy dude with a mur'loc pet.
What I meant to say is, the ebon blade have a ebony morality, they work with the lich king. That's their deal. They where of a darker stock in wrath. When they raised ghouls out of scarlets as a daily quest for the fun of it. But that's fine, that's their thing. They are a scourge 1337 light working with us.
They have similar themes by being undead, now in Legion, they need to point out how they are different. With both perks and flaws. (no mustaches here). But the ebon blade have scourge themes. What should the forsaken have? A villian bat like Garrosh and the orcs? I don't want that, I want them to dig out of the hole that edge of darkness made and cataclysm questing. And that means a slightly paler morality than the ebon blade. But both being on the darker side.
Sorry if I'm rambling.
Post by
Rankkor
So I saw the updated dalaran map and I can't help but raise my eyebrow at this:
look
I'm not surprised that the sunreavers don't have their own quarters anymore. That was to be expected, and the horde quarter is instead named after Sylvanas, as she's the top honcho on the horde now.
The real eyebrow raiser is the Silver Covenant Enclave. OR rather........... its absence. While it makes sense that the sunreavers no longer have an enclave, what exactly could have led to those silver covenant thugs to lose their property? Its now called Greyfang Enclave (Which smells like Worgens, of all people, will be the ones representing the alliance in Dalaran).
This, to me raises several questions.
1: is dalaran and the kirin tor neutral again?
2: Why isn't the Silver Covenant Enclave there anymore?
3: Have the Silver Covenant butchers received a taste of their own medicine by being expelled?
4: Why of all people, are the worgens representing the alliance? I get why Windrunner represents the horde, but..........ohhh my gah. Is seriously Genn Greymane the new high king of the alliance O_O
I know, I know, that's a big stretch, with next to zero evidence. But it is a curious thought. No?
She's one of the biggest wimps ever produced by quel'thalas
Bigger than Kolitra and Aethas?
Yes. Koltira was a badass in Icecrown, even if we had to bail his ass out of the fire in the DK starting zone. And he was also just as badass in Andorhal, it was only due to treachery that he was abducted in the first place.
High contrast to vereesa, where she needs someone to save her butt every single time she makes an appearance.
As for Aethas, he's not so much as a wimp, more like he's underused. He was just another NPC among the masses, until he was incarcerated in 5.1, milled about in 5.2, and was in Siege of Orgrimmar in 5.4
Whatever else can be said about him, at least he's only needed rescuing once.
Kolitra is a whimp in Andorhal, not some badass, he let's his yaoi love for Thassasrian get infront of victory. That, my friend. Is a whimp.
In dk starter he was a damsel in distress for is yaoi bff.
We find him in dragonblight, helping him out...
If some datamined quests is to go for, the dk kills his way down into UC and rescue Kolitra. Though I only heard about it because of horde complaint about killing their own. So it's probably gone now.
1: Koltira was not a wimp in Andorhal. He was kicking ass and taking names, just like Thassarian. He called for a truce with the alliance forces because he, like a true tactician, saw the value of joining forces to take out the much more dangerous Scourge first. Unlike Sylvanas or Garrosh.
2: yes, he needed rescuing in the Dk starting zone, but like I said, its not like it happens every single time. Just about every character in this game has had to be rescued at least once. Its when they need to be constantly saved over and over that they start to come across as wimps.
3: Yes, we help him in dragonblight. So? Several characters who are very competent and strong end up just watching on the sidelines several times. This doesn't take away from the moments where they do intervene.
4: Can't comment on that, since I've not seen those quests, nor evidence of it.
Aethas is a wimp due to being a kirin tor bootlicker. Evrything about him is kirin tor, even after the purge!
You got a point there, but there's a difference between being spineless, and being a weakling. Granted, not much of a difference, but still.
Being a damsel in distress isn't the only way to be a wimp, and it's hard for me. In my opinion, to say who's the worst of quel'thalas. MM quest has windrunner being somewhat helpful, though she walks into a trap, because she want to find Alleria (paladins didn't tell her?). Whilst she is the worst of the windrunner, and her title is a self proclaimed one, rather than merit as with Sylvanas... Aww whom am I kidding, I'm going to hate her in my ski lodge. But I'm going to hate Aethas on my mage too. And Kolitra, should I roll a DK. But who's to earn the most ire? I can not tell. As death knights build their horsemen, I hear nothing of mages and hunters.
Its pretty easy to tell which one is worse. Vereesa. For anyone else, there can be at least a few good things to say about them. But Vereesa's only accomplishment in the story is getting knocked up by Rhonin. Everything else she's done, EVERYTHING, has involved her needing to be rescued, her complaining and moaning and whining, or her getting in the way of someone else's plans. The one moment where she could have been useful was during Warcrimes, and she couldn't even do that much.
The forsaken recruit from the battle field, this is true, though DK have the army of the dead CD... But more came from graveyards and the like. And as for the berserk Resurrection. It's a uncommon thing if to go by the cdev. And not it's intention. You are not forced into military, we see mushroom farmers (or intended as such) we see a wealthy dude with a mur'loc pet.
They still force the curse of undeath onto others unwillingly, instead of asking permission like the DKs. Plus, like I said, 90% of their recruits are people they themselves killed. Who are also more often than not, innocent civilians.
As for the Death Knights raising ghouls, its not the same and you know it.
A lesser undead creature, devoid of any intelligence, self-awareness, memory, personality, and who will crumble to dust as soon as their necromancer dies, or cancels the spell, is not the same as a free-willed, conscious independent undead creature, that will live forever, and will actually feel and remember, and miss and mourn.
Death Knights only bring the former version of undeath upon their enemies, and even then, temporarily. They NEVER bring the latter lightly. And in both cases, they never EVER use it on non-combatants.
What I meant to say is, the ebon blade have a ebony morality, they work
with
the lich king. That's their deal. They where of a darker stock in wrath. When they raised ghouls out of scarlets as a daily quest for the fun of it. But that's fine, that's their thing. They are a scourge 1337 light working with us.
I highlighted that word because its very important to keep it in mind. The Ebon Blade works WITH the lich king, not FOR the lich king. Theirs is an alliance of convenience, not them serving a new dark master. This is made abundantly clear when Lavaman calls us to Icecrown to propose his alliance with us.
Post by
oneforthemoney
1: is dalaran and the kirin tor neutral again?
Could be. Didn't you say Khadgar is the leader of the Kirin Tor now? And the main reason they were having trouble maintaining that neutrality before was due to Garrosh being a massive ^&*! to everyone and the Horde being the threatening presence to the world. Now the Legion's back, and if Dalaran has shown anything, it's a willingness to tackle the bigger threat.
2: Why isn't the Silver Covenant Enclave there anymore?
They might have been turned into more of a regular army, instead of an armed faction within the city. Would stand to reason, as putting them under the sole authority of the Kirin Tor collectively would hamstring the whole purge thing happening again. At least in theory.
Post by
Rankkor
what's your take on the worgens representing the alliance? After years of the alliance being represented almost universally by humans, suddenly seeing worgens at the front feels so strange.
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