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Post by
Adamsm
Hate to do this Rank...but sources please?
ShatteringTwo people are negative against Thrall in that book; Cairne for his choice of Warchief and Aggra....cause Aggra is horribly written. Varian is angry against everyone but that is normal. Everyone else didn't seem to have a single bad thing to say about Thrall the entire book; even the Greatmother sides with him against Aggra.
Twilight of the AspectsSince Thrall is the chosen golden child save the world character through out the entire book....I don't recall anyone calling him out for any of his mistakes. He get's to visit with Alternate Taretha who more or less tells him 'Your Taretha died for you, and it's not a bad thing'. Thrall is the one who gives pep talks to the Aspects. He does get a pep talk from Kalec...who goes out of his way to convince Green Jesus that just because he made mistakes, doesn't mean he'll make more.
Tides of WarJaina screams things at Thrall during her break down...and he just shrugs them off and tells her to stop being crazy. Thrall was the f-ing deus machina in that book that stopped her and saved Durotar. There is rumblings about Garrosh from the Horde forces, but Thrall's name isn't mentioned.
Really dude? really? Thrall said "I shouldn't had expected any better from a human". This right after Varian straight up attacked him with his weapon and called him the worst insult one can ever call an orc "Coward". And then there were his baseless accusations of treachery (And yes, I say baseless because garona or not, the horde members of the delegation were attacked too, and he knew it, he was there. Neither side was wearing uniforms or emblems of the alliance or horde, meaning there was no conclusive evidence of foul play for either side to suspect the other)And yet if any Alliance character were to say that about an Orc, you'd be calling for their head. But think about it this way; he says that insult in front of his then best friend forever Jaina and the young human prince who was looking at him with admiration in his eyes...and no one calls him out on being a hypocrite. But if Varian says the same thing, oh that's just the worse thing in existence and Varian needs to die /roll eyes
Post by
oneforthemoney
So..... people are gonna be holding that over their heads forever? Dude, the overwhelming majority of the orcs died by the hundreds of thousands in the second war. The few that lived were captured and spend over 2 decades in concentration camps where every form of abuse imaginable was inflicted on them on a daily basis. They've paid for their crimes. To continue to hold them, and their descendants responsible for actions that they've already paid for is beyond unjust.
I don't see anyone still holding the night elves responsible for what the highborn did in the war of the ancients. Why? because A: the responsible parties paid for their crimes. B: The descendants of the responsible parties atoned for their crimes in multiple ways.
Well, no. Not quite. See, the difference here is that the highborne were held accountable. Very very accountable, seeing as all the ones engaged in playing summon Sargeras or sided with the Legion died. But we still have veterans in the Horde who were there and took part in their various atrocities. The important difference is the War of the Ancients was several thousand years ago, and all the guilty highborne are dead. We still have people running around who got to see the orcs burn down Stormwind, displaced a nation, and then have the pleasure of dealing with these same orcs (Saurfang, as just one example). So really Rank, that's a poor example.
Some races make full usage of the technology available in the world, while many others do not. Its really perplexing to see gnomes and goblins using electric ovens to cook their meals, only to see humans and orcs using timber and fireplaces to cook their meals.
Exactly. Alternative options are there. Can the Alliance be blamed for the orcs refusing to look into them? Or even to their other allies to compensate?
Post by
Rankkor
And yet if any Alliance character were to say that about an Orc, you'd be calling for their head.
Not if the character in question asked for it.
But think about it this way; he says that insult in front of his then best friend forever Jaina and the young human prince who was looking at him with admiration in his eyes...and no one calls him out on being a hypocrite.
He wasn't a hypocrite. His outburst was a reaction, not an action. He said that after the King of the alliance attacked him UNPROVOKED, and then said to him the biggest insult you can give to an orc. He expected better from the motherfrigging KING of the alliance, not a common grunt who doesn't know his place.
But if Varian says the same thing, oh that's just the worse thing in existence and Varian needs to die /roll eyes
Again, Thrall's words were said in reaction to Varian's actions.
Varian's actions had no such justification. He decided to insult the warchief of the horde,
and attack him
.
During a peace conference.
For absolutely no reason whatsoever. Every single person in that meeting, every single one of them, knew the horde was not responsible for the attack. Every single one except varian. And he decided to attack the warchief, and lay down an insult that is the worst thing you can say to an orc, which he knew because he lived among them for enough time to know that.
And yet you're upset that Thrall talked back? ta'hell man? ta'hell?.
See, the difference here is that the highborne were held accountable.
o_O are you implying that the orcs were not? did you somehow not read the part of the 20 years of jail, and the physical, emotional, and verbal abuses they suffered
every single day
, during their incarceration? They weren't jailed in a day spa, they were in concentration camps dude. For twenty years. if that's not being held accountable, what in god's name is?
But we still have veterans in the Horde who were there and took part in their various atrocities.
Veterans of the horde
who paid for their crimes.
I must repeat my question, must they be held responsible for their actiosn for the rest of their lives? even if they've already paid a heavy enough price? they lost families, their freedom, their dignity, the blessings of their ancestors, and were tortured, tormented, and abused daily for 2 whole decades.
is that not punishment enough?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
Veterans of the horde who paid for their crimes. I must repeat my question, must they be held responsible for their actiosn for the rest of their lives? even if they've already paid a heavy enough price? they lost families, their freedom, their dignity, the blessings of their ancestors, and were tortured, tormented, and abused daily for 2 whole decades.
is that not punishment enough?
No. Because many of them were not, in fact, in those camps. The Warsong were not. The Frostwolves were not. Doomhammer (who you may recall led the Horde in the Second war after taking it from Blackhand) was not. The Blackrock were not. The Dragonmaw were not. A great many others were not. So yes, Rank. They were imprisoned. But you know? Oddly enough, seeing the mass murders who torched you city when you were a child is amazingly not something you just get over and play nice with them
when there is no reason you have to
. And no. Avoiding their retribution for deciding you do not want to deal with them is
not
a good reason.
Every single person in that meeting, every single one of them, knew the horde was not responsible for the attack.
Yep. And Garrosh only thought it was the Alliance trying to lure him and Thrall into a trap. How splendidly open minded.
But the thing you have forgotten about the Theramore Peace summit is that they were attacked as they were leaving the summit. And the reason Varian was leaving? The Scourge was attacking his cities. Then, they get attacked by the Hammer, and lo and behold, the very same orc who killed his father right in front of him was present. How very unreasonable of him to then not be inclined to deal with orcs.
However, I do believe we've been treading over the same ground we have so many times before. The only thing missing is someone bringing up camp Taurajo. Might I ask what the point you're trying to prove is, Rank? Because I'm honestly lost among all the random reactionary comments.
Post by
Rankkor
No. Because many of them were not, in fact, in those camps. The Warsong were not.
Fair enough.
The Frostwolves were not.
Now hold up right there, why on heaven's name should the forstwolves ever have been in there? they didn't make a single move against the alliance. Not a single move. Not a single battle. They didn't even settled on lands inhabited by the alliance. Are you seriously suggesting they should had been incarcerated just for being orcs?
Doomhammer (who you may recall led the Horde in the Second war after taking it from Blackhand) was not.
So? in case you forgot, he's
dead
. That means he paid for his crimes.
The Blackrock were not.
So? they weren't part of the horde, even when Garrosh was in charge only a few of the blackrocks were admitted into the horde.
And the extremely few blackrock orcs that were in the new horde with Thrall (Such as Saurfang, or Eitrigg) were orcs who had paid a heavy price for their crimes. They were in fact captured and incarcerated, and in the case of eitrigg, he lost his entire family in the process.
The Dragonmaw were not.
Again, so? until very recently they weren't part of the horde either. They only became a part of it thanks to garrosh.
These are all orc clans that had (at the time of the summit) never been a part of Thrall's horde. Come on, I can name you several human criminal groups that are not part of the alliance. Would it be fair if I lumped their crimes onto the alliance too?
A great many others were not.
Not really. There were more orcs imprisoned than not. And the ones who weren't imprisoned, never joined Thrall's horde anyways (Such as the blackrocks and the dragonmaws)
So yes, Rank. They were imprisoned. But you know? Oddly enough, seeing the mass murders who torched you city when you were a child is amazingly not something you just get over and play nice with them
when there is no reason you have to
.
That is being both petulant and immature.
If a guy one day murders your entire family and burns your house, but then is captured by the police and sentenced to prison for 30 years, where not only is he incarcerated, he's also tortured and abused every single day of his life for 30 years, and then one day you see him on the street, if you seriously wanna cause him more harm, you're worse than he is. He wronged you first, but he paid for his actions, as a decent being, you should let go and move on.
its a different thing when the perpetrator gets away with it, but when they paid the piper for every ounce of blood they spilled, forcing them into starvation and death through economic embargoes is both cowardly, and immoral.
Every single person in that meeting, every single one of them, knew the horde was not responsible for the attack.
Yep. And Garrosh only thought it was the Alliance trying to lure him and Thrall into a trap. How splendidly open minded.
I meant on the side of the alliance. Varian was the only one paranoid about the whole thing. Just as on the horde side Garrosh was the only paranoid about it too.
Might I ask what the point you're trying to prove is, Rank? Because I'm honestly lost among all the random reactionary comments.
That the alliance is every bit as much to blame for the war as the horde is. They were the ones who broke the peace treaty first (doesn't matter if they were tricked into it by the twilight hammer) and they were the ones who had an opportunity to end the war presented to them in a silver platter, and decided to turn it away for petty, and
extremely
selfish reasons.
They could had avoided all the bloodshed if they had just taken the damned deal.
I will add the caveat that the horde did just as much as the alliance did to spark the war (Forsaken actions on the wrathgate for starters) but the alliance is most certainly neither in the right, nor in the moral highground here.
This entire discussion came due to this post:
They were frustrated because the alliance renewed their aggression against them (...)
Oh, c'mon, you can't be serious about this...
Which, I still maintain that yes, the alliance renewed their aggression against the horde.
This is not victim-blaming. Who started what depends on point of view, but you can't just ignore or dismiss that at one point in a bloody, and extended fight, a very priceless opportunity was given to the alliance to put an end to the conflict, and they had no reasons to just dismiss it, but they did. Specifically Varian did. I wonder what Tyrande would had said if she had actually been present in that meeting. It was
her
forests that were being negotiated for a full withdrawal of warsong forces, after all.
Stop trying to justify Varian's decision on that summit. His whole reason for refusing the deal was "Because we can" and that's an extremely crappy reason to throw away the lives of several of your soldiers away. This is probably why he chose not to continue the war on the horde at the end of SoO. Because he realized that even if the alliance wins (And their victory wasn't 100% assured) their loses would be catastrophic. It would be at best a Pyhrric Victory, and at worst, a bloody and horrible defeat. Accepting the deal would have had
zero negative consequences.
Sure the horde forces would be strengthened, but so would be his, considering that the horde was willing to give away a hefty amount of other resources in trade for the timber. Give and take. His refusal was based on nothing but pride and prejudice alone.
Why
are you trying to justify that?
Post by
Nulgar
Aggra is horribly written.
I actually liked Aggra in Shattering, she provided an opposite to Thrall, which sadly didn't really carry over into the game. Like Zaela, a lot of potential squandered.
Post by
Adamsm
And yet if any Alliance character were to say that about an Orc, you'd be calling for their head.
Not if the character in question asked for it.
But think about it this way; he says that insult in front of his then best friend forever Jaina and the young human prince who was looking at him with admiration in his eyes...and no one calls him out on being a hypocrite.
He wasn't a hypocrite. His outburst was a reaction, not an action. He said that after the King of the alliance attacked him UNPROVOKED, and then said to him the biggest insult you can give to an orc. He expected better from the motherfrigging KING of the alliance, not a common grunt who doesn't know his place.
But if Varian says the same thing, oh that's just the worse thing in existence and Varian needs to die /roll eyes
Again, Thrall's words were said in reaction to Varian's actions.
Varian's actions had no such justification. He decided to insult the warchief of the horde,
and attack him
.
During a peace conference.
For absolutely no reason whatsoever. Every single person in that meeting, every single one of them, knew the horde was not responsible for the attack. Every single one except varian. And he decided to attack the warchief, and lay down an insult that is the worst thing you can say to an orc, which he knew because he lived among them for enough time to know that.
And yet you're upset that Thrall talked back? ta'hell man? ta'hell?.
And this is my point; every time Thrall makes any type of 'mistake' he's not held accountable for it. People excuse it or shrug it off but if anyone else does it, it's time to kill them. This is why he's called the Green Jesus; he can do no wrong. Even when he does something wrong, people still shrug it off or try to make it out that he did the right thing anyway.
Varian had a reason for his reaction; at that point he was still living in the past when the orcs were the monsters under the bed....and seeing the mind controlled Garona attacking him brought back those memories; after all, she murdered his father on the orders of high ranking orcs back then. He hadn't made the peace with the past or his rage that would happen in Wolfheart yet; all his perceptions knew was that the bogeyman from his nightmares was back and attempted to kill him and his son. If you don't consider that to be justified to Varian's mind set at that time, so be it.
Aggra is horribly written.
I actually liked Aggra in Shattering, she provided an opposite to Thrall, which sadly didn't really carry over into the game. Like Zaela, a lot of potential squandered.
Really? All of her book time was spent insulting Thrall until the end when she suddenly revealed she liked him...the whole thing read like she was acting like a 10 ten year old kid. I can admit that Zaela had squandered potential but Aggra was just wrong from the start.
Post by
Rankkor
Varian had a reason for his reaction;
So did Thrall, but apparently for you Thrall's reason doesn't count.
Varian = I just saw a boogieman from my childhood, so I'm gonna make baseless accusations and attack the leader of the group I was trying to negotiate with and call him the worst insult I can think of in his culture.
Thrall = The guy I was trying to negotiate with in a peace meeting just attacked me and called me the worst insult available in my culture. I expected better of him.
Yeah, shameful Thrall, how dare you to talk back to the guy who just attacked you in a peace meeting. I mean, you've just taken the worst insult available in your culture and were physically assaulted in a peace meeting, pfft, big deal. You should had taken the physical and verbal abuse like a good orc. I mean, you had to take that crap from childhood for the first 20 years of your life, what's another drop in the bucket? right?. Because humans are entitled to beat and insult orcs whenever and wherever they please, didn't you get the memo?(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
Adamsm
And yet Thrall is still allowed to insult the king of Stormwind and walk off without anyone calling bull^&*! while Varian would have been told off if the situation was reversed.
Post by
Rankkor
And yet Thrall is still allowed to insult the king of Stormwind and walk off without anyone calling bull^&*!
*sighs*
you are not listening to a single word I'm saying, are you?
Thrall was allowed that because his words were a reaction to Varian's extremely unjustified actions.
Thrall insulted varian, because varian physically assaulted him, and called him the worst insult on his culture
during a peace meeting.
Are you seriously suggesting that Thrall should had done nothing?
If Thrall had insulted the King of Stormwind, without said king doing either of the above mentioned actions, then
that
would had been a pretty a-hole thing to do on behalf of Thrall, and everyone should had called him out on it.
But as it stands, Thrall's reaction was perfectly normal, and actually quite restrained compared to Varian's. He did not insult the king of stormwind, he expressed his disappointment that the king of stormwind was a rage-a-holic that didn't know how to control his own emotions.The reason neither the fan-base, nor the people in the summit called Thrall out on this, is because
Varian was in the wrong.
while Varian would have been told off if the situation was reversed.
Not really, if Thrall had attacked and insulted the king of stormwind during a peace conference, without said king having ever said or done anything to warrant that attack and insult, he would had been rightly told off by everyone present. And that's exactly what happened when Garrosh let himself be goaded into violence by Varian on the Violet Summit. Thrall told off Garrosh after that, and if it had been Thrall doing the deed, he would had been on the receiving end of the scolding.
I'll also remind you how the situation was reversed on the argent tournament, where varian did nothing but spew insults towards the horde fighters, and the horde races, and not one soul told him off.
See,
he
has carte blanche to insult whoever he damned well pleases, any time, anywhere. After all, he insulted the warchief, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES, every single one of them in peace summits, and not one soul told him anything about it.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
See, he has carte blanche to insult whoever he damned well pleases, any time, anywhere. After all, he insulted the warchief, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES, every single one of them in peace summits, and not one soul told him anything about it.
Except his son.
And Jaina.
Post by
Rankkor
See, he has carte blanche to insult whoever he damned well pleases, any time, anywhere. After all, he insulted the warchief, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES, every single one of them in peace summits, and not one soul told him anything about it.
Except his son.
Yeah because a 9 year old scolding you has SUCH a big impact in politics.
I'm talking REAL told off, like..... other leaders getting pissed off at him. You know, like how a lot of people (Both ingame and IRL) got rightly mad at thrall for not intervening when Garrosh started going down the slippery rope.
And Jaina.
When has jaina ever scolded varian for anything? she said nothing on the theramoore summit, nothing on the violet summit, nothing after he attacked the warchief on the undercity, and nothing on the argent tournament. Her only words for him where to cry and "be proud of her king" in ICC (/retch)
If anything, its been
him
, scolding
her
, after the purge of dalaran (Ohh irony)
Post by
Adamsm
Actually Anduin being disappointed in him is an impact in politics...since that is the heir to the throne of Stormwind and one who will eventually have a ruling voice in how things are run. Varian also sees his son as one of his main supports so having him pissed at him would be something he would notice and pay attention to.
Though 'rightly' mad at Thrall for Garrosh...and yet they had no problem following along after him as he went to end Garrosh, even though Vol'jin had done a metic @#$% ton more then Thrall did against the forces of the mad Warchief. Yes that ended up with the Troll being the new warchief, but considering how everything else plays out in the Warcraft universe, you know he'll be listening to pretty much everything Thrall tells him.
Post by
oneforthemoney
See, he has carte blanche to insult whoever he damned well pleases, any time, anywhere. After all, he insulted the warchief, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES, every single one of them in peace summits, and not one soul told him anything about it.
Except his son.
Yeah because a 9 year old scolding you has SUCH a big impact in politics.
I'm talking REAL told off, like..... other leaders getting pissed off at him. You know, like how a lot of people (Both ingame and IRL) got rightly mad at thrall for not intervening when Garrosh started going down the slippery rope.
Rank, you know better. No one has a bigger impact on Varian than his son. Sure other leaders might become angry with him, but the only person whose opinion holds a real sway over both monarch and man is Anduin.
Hell, the reason he probably didn't go down a road like Garrosh's was likely because of Anduin.
Post by
Rankkor
Though 'rightly' mad at Thrall for Garrosh...and yet they had no problem following along after him as he went to end Garrosh, even though Vol'jin had done a metic @#$% ton more then Thrall did against the forces of the mad Warchief.
*sighs*
Dude you know as well as I do why isn't Vol'jin leading the charge against Garrosh on Draenor. Its precisely
because
he's the Warchief of the horde, that he can't do that himself. Its the same reason why Varian doesn't go either.
Do recall that the Draenor mission was supposed to be a
Suicide Mission
. Were we weren't supposed to return.
It would be folly to send the leadership of the horde or the alliance to draenor, on a mission that had a 99% mortality rate (from the original expedition force sent, less than 12 people survived. Granted, they managed to send reinforcements, and armies later, but that was only because we somehow miraculously managed to survive the sabotage of the dark portal.) What would happen if the mission was a bust and we become permanently stranded on Draenor and/or killed? The horde loses yet another Warchief, and we have a succession crisis, with Sylvanas opting to make a move for herself.
Its the same reason why the alliance never sent any of their leadership either.
Rank, you know better. No one has a bigger impact on Varian than his son. Sure other leaders might become angry with him, but the only person whose opinion holds a real sway over both monarch and man is Anduin.
Hell, the reason he probably didn't go down a road like Garrosh's was likely because of Anduin.
You do have a big point there, but I'm still disappointed on how it was still only Anduin who said anything (and certainly NONE of the fanbase). But hey, lets have Thrall make even the tiniest mistake, and everyone (inside and outside the game) dog-piles on him.
Post by
morginar
with Sylvanas opting to make a move for herself.
Cowled Ranger
?
But hey, lets have Thrall make even the tiniest mistake, and everyone (inside and outside the game) dog-piles on him.
That would be because Thrall became a total a Mary Sue in cataclysm (remember the wedding and the book where he was the chosen one), most of the time it's just some hatred for that lingering.
Not sure if I can say I'm much better myself for hating King chin for his Marty sue in that comic, (the "he posses the strength of two" quote after merge really made me cringe cuz his str should now be normal and half before.) And Wolfheart... Then the spotlight sue team he was part of in Mists.
Post by
Rankkor
That would be because Thrall became a total a Mary Sue in cataclysm (remember the wedding and the book where he was the chosen one), most of the time it's just some hatred for that lingering.
That's understandable, almost everything he did in cata made me cringe, I was opposed from day one to him stepping down as warchief to go do some mumbo-jumbo on the maelstrom. That elemental bonds questline has to be the worst written quest in the whole game.
What grates me though, is that Thrall is neither the first, nor the last character to be a Mary sue, nor a spotlight stealing ho'. Several others before and after him have done that. But
HE
is the only one to receive this severe degree of hatred.
Not sure if I can say I'm much better myself for hating King chin for his Marty sue in that comic, (the "he posses the strength of two" quote after merge really made me cringe cuz his str should now be normal and half before.) And Wolfheart... Then the spotlight sue team he was part of in Mists.
Point in case. Varian was almost as much of a sue in MoP as Thrall was in cata, but absolutely nobody expressed any hate towards it. Just look at how they took every single one of his negative features, and transplanted them onto women, just to make him look badass. Suddenly HE is the one giving tactical advice on the most trivial of battle strategies to frigging Tyrande, who has over 10 millenia of experience over him. HE is the one who is telling Jaina to be reasonable. HE is the one who is telling rodgers to not be a bigot.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Point in case. Varian was almost as much of a sue in MoP as Thrall was in cata, but absolutely nobody expressed any hate towards it.
I think the major difference here is the sort of sue they were. Varian is a king, but most of the other attributes he's gained line up with that in some respect, though perhaps not logically or well. He showed up maybe three or four times, and all of those as his role as king of Stormwind would demand.
The problem with Thrall though is that he wasn't just a shaman and warchief. He was THE shaman, warchief of the Horde, only one capable of filling in for a dragon aspect, master of the elements, calmer of the maelstrom, saviour of the world, target of the Elemental Lord and Deathwing himself, basically holding up half the world, and whatever other achievements were foisted on him. It wasn't his attributes, but the sheer absurd scope of his utter importance and abilities which tied him into literally every part of Cataclysm's content that grated on people. Nothing major could be done without Thrall having been present somewhere, not even as Warchief, but as Thrall, or whatever his name is now.
This is discounting how his character/looks changed because Blizz wanted to try and keep him relevant.
Post by
morginar
This is discounting how his character/looks changed because Blizz wanted to try and keep him relevant.
I'm more going to say that he is still part of the story, he can't retire yet. At least with Garrosh around. For that would somehow create more hatred.
Point in case. Varian was almost as much of a sue in MoP as Thrall was in cata, but absolutely nobody expressed any hate towards it. Just look at how they took every single one of his negative features, and transplanted them onto women, just to make him look badass. Suddenly HE is the one giving tactical advice on the most trivial of battle strategies to frigging Tyrande, who has over 10 millenia of experience over him. HE is the one who is telling Jaina to be reasonable. HE is the one who is telling rodgers to not be a bigot.
Not in game, no. Once Jaina did a gilneas move on Wrynn, "mind your own kingdom" in warcrimes.
Some outside the game call out for Chin, though many "humans" defend him.
Post by
Adamsm
There's also the fact that even books that had nothing to do with him....Thrall still managed to steal the spotlight.
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