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Post by
Rankkor
But...she does. She only becomes an Exarch in one of the far later garrison quests. Everything up to that point she does is her learning the ropes. Hell, even her armour gets a slow upgrade over the course of the campaign.
But.... Velen gives her his glowy forehead floaty giant rune thingy...... Doesn't that mean she's already leader of the draenei? Exarch or not?
What I meant about the Alliance campaign feeling more put together was that it, in totality, had that feeling. The Horde had Frostfire, but after that it never seemed to have the same continuity the Alliance campaign had, and I think a big part of that involved the Frostwolves pretty much being confined to Frostfire. They show up throughout your campaign but after Siege of Shattrath the only thing of real importance with them is when Thrall kills Garrosh.
Well.... I can't accurately comment on this, simply because while I finished the horde version of all the zones, I was unable to do the same for the alliance in the beta (And on the live realms, I haven't had the time to finish leveling my alliance alt)
I can agree that the "protagonists" are more uniform for the alliance, because in each zone, the horde teams up with a different faction to battle the bad guys.
Frostwolves in Frostfire, Laughing Skull on Gorgrond, Sunsworn Blood Elves for 1/4 of Talador (Frostwolves for another 1/4, Arakkoa for another 1/4, and regular horde troops for the last 1/4) Arakkoa for the majority of Arak (with 2 bits of the zone having regular horde forces), and then back to frostwolves for Nagrand along with regular horde forces.
Now, I'm not entirely sure what the nomenclature of allies is for the alliance, but I think its along the lines of Karabor draenei in shadowmoon, Rangari on Gorgrond, Auchenai and Shattari Draenei for 50% of talador (arakkoa and regular alliance for the other 50%) Arakkoa for the majority of Arak (2 bits of the zone having regular alliance forces) and I have no idea what you guys have on Nagrand.
The nomenclature is not
that
different from the horde forces. I'd agree that its somewhat more uniform in the alliance because the Draenei of the Shattari, Auchenai, Rangari and Karabor branches all belong to the same civilization. Whereas Frostwolves, Laughing Skull and Sunsworn are all drastically different factions joined together only by a common cause (not unlike the horde itself)
The way I see it, the Alliance storyline is more a coming of age one with Yrel and the draenei as a whole claiming something of their own. They're taking back the power to control their destiny in Draenor rather than just being everyone's punching bags. The Horde, meanwhile, mainly have Frostfire, which is set up a lot like a more traditional adventure story. There's the build up, the climax, then the battle of the pass, and after that, much of the characters and the story for them is over save a few incidents without any further development.
Couldn't the same be said about the alliance though? On Shadowmoon the only characters to get any semblance of protagonism are Yrel and Maladar, and they are also the only ones on the spotlight in later zones. After shadowmoon is over, the story for pretty much all of them is over save for a few small incidents. Maladar only shows up again on Talador. Yrel's big moment is also on Talador (and shared equally with Durotan. All the quests she participates in as alliance, are the exact same on the horde with Durotan).
One would argue that Nobundo had a notable role in talador as well, and he shows up later in Nagrand for 1/4 of the zone, but to that I'd counter that Drek'thar had a HUGE role on Frostfire, and he shows up on Nagrand as well for the same 1/4 of the zone that Nobundo does. And he's the protagonist of the horde-exclusive bits of the lvl 100 garrison campaign quests involving the primal furies of Draenor.
So the same argument applies that almost every single character of the alliance that shows up in shadowmoon, has their story over, save for a few small incidents. Maraad has a small role after Shadowmoon, but then again, so does Thrall who only shows up also in the starting area plus a second one.
I think the major difference between the two storylines is that they themselves are different styles of stories, and hence appeal in different ways. Much like how Velen stepped into the darkstar and sacrificed himself that way, Ga'nar rushed at the Iron Horde to buy them more time. The orcs have a more confrontational style and more Conan sort of story where the action is sudden, huge, but short (Conan stories being a novella length at most).
Meanwhile the draenei's was more contemplative and more akin to the Lord of the Rings where a character develops but over a long period. Theirs was spaced out across the whole expansion with Talador being primarily their story, with Auchindoun and Shattrath, and sharing much of Nagrand with Horde and Alliance storyline being much the same.
You have a good point on Talador being more "personal" for the alliance, since that was about the draenei taking back lost territory, and defending another part of their territory from falling. But I didn't see much character growth simply because the only character alliance-side is almost exclusively Yrel. The others have very little exposure next to her. The horde has Durotan, but Drek'thar takes quite a big chunk of the spotlight too, as did Gan'ar on frostfire, as did Draka on Gorgrond, as did Thrall on Nagrand, Liandrin on talador and Reshad on Arak.
Meanwhile, alliance side, who's your main liaison on shadowmoon? Yrel. Who's your main liaison on Gorgrond? Yrel. Who is it on Talador? Maladar for the bit involving auchindoun, Yrel for the rest. Who is it on Nagrand? Yrel again (Unless I'm mistaken, I've yet to do that zone as alliance) and Reshad on Arak.
I suppose looking at it from that angle, you are correct in that the horde campaign comes across as an anthology of multiple short stories with different protagonists, while the alliance one comes across more as a single long tale about a single person.
Which one is better depending heavily on the taste of each person.
I don't think either is necessarily better or worse than the other, but rather hold different appeals.
You're absolutely right, however I do find the setup to be somewhat ironic :P
Because the horde starting zone is presented as one cohesive single story where every branch is connected to one large tree, but the rest of the zones are individual stories focused on specific protagonists.
While the alliance is the complete opposite, their starting zone is presented as a bunch of disconnected stories that have almost nothing to do with one another, but their overall narrative across all zones is interconnected with one another in one single narrative.
hehe, whether blizzard did that on purpose or not, I still find it funny =P
Post by
Adamsm
No, Yrel isn't considered a major leader until she completed the Exarch training; up to that point she was a commander of the Draenei forces, but she was not the final voice.
Post by
Atik
Yeah. Nothing in her appearances throughout the zones really implied she was the Draenei leader, except for Valen giving her his forehead thing (Which she never has afterwards)
Honestly, when I first saw the Shadowmoon cinematic, I thought he was giving her his power as a prophet or something.
Post by
Adamsm
She has it during the Exarch missions.
Post by
Rankkor
No, Yrel isn't considered a major leader until she completed the Exarch training; up to that point
she was a commander of the Draenei forces
, but she was not the final voice.
That's the thing, she shouldn't be leading anything. She was given command of a small squad and got them all killed. If she had proven her worth over the course of several other zones until she was deemed worthy of another shot at leadership, that'd be great.
Instead, she's given a position of leadership again, despite having no experience, and having failed badly on her first attempt.
Post by
oneforthemoney
No, Yrel isn't considered a major leader until she completed the Exarch training; up to that point
she was a commander of the Draenei forces
, but she was not the final voice.
That's the thing, she shouldn't be leading anything. She was given command of a small squad and got them all killed. If she had proven her worth over the course of several other zones until she was deemed worthy of another shot at leadership, that'd be great.
Instead, she's given a position of leadership again, despite having no experience, and having failed badly on her first attempt.
She was stuck with Maraad the rest of the time as more like co-leaders until he kicked it, so it's more like she actually got some real training after that point. And after the battle, I think she'd proved herself.
Post by
Adamsm
No, Yrel isn't considered a major leader until she completed the Exarch training; up to that point
she was a commander of the Draenei forces
, but she was not the final voice.
That's the thing, she shouldn't be leading anything. She was given command of a small squad and got them all killed. If she had proven her worth over the course of several other zones until she was deemed worthy of another shot at leadership, that'd be great.
Instead, she's given a position of leadership again, despite having no experience, and having failed badly on her first attempt.
....I'm sorry, did we do the same quests? She worked along side Maraad across several zones, showing her worth. She and Durotan fought Blackhand to a stand still in Shattrah, and helped to sink the ships there.
Also, to the 'got them all killed'; name one Warcraft leader who hasn't had that happen to them at least once....or twice....or several dozen times *cough*Thrall and the Earthen Ring shaman in Hour of Twilight*cough*.
Post by
Rankkor
Also, to the 'got them all killed'; name one Warcraft leader who hasn't had that happen to them at least once....or twice....or several dozen times *cough*Thrall and the Earthen Ring shaman in Hour of Twilight*cough*.
There are two errors on that particular statement.
1: not "all" of the earthen ring forces on the temple died. We saw 4 named ones die, but other nameless ones are still there.
2: that wasn't Thrall's first mission.
....I'm sorry, did we do the same quests? She worked along side Maraad across several zones, showing her worth. She and Durotan fought Blackhand to a stand still in Shattrah, and helped to sink the ships there.
She worked alongside him, but it was
her
leading the draenei forces on all of them. He was there as an advisor at best. For all intents and purposes, Maraad fills the same role in the alliance as Thrall does on the horde. First and foremost a fighter, and an advisor.
Feels off.
Post by
Adamsm
Hate to say it Rank but it honestly feels like you are just nit picking to be picky; Yrel proves her worth over the course of questing. Yes her first solo mission ended terribly...which is why from then on she has Maraad at her side; make up your mind man.
And whether it's Thrall's first mission or 1 millionth, he still 'let' those shaman died when he could have tried to do something more to try to save them.....or you know, even acknowledge that they died. At least Yrel did that.
Post by
Atik
2: that wasn't Thrall's first mission.
Tutorial of WC3, I lost every Orc except Thrall. And from the looks of the Caverns of Time dungeon, so did Thrall, being hes the only one who actually leaves.
Post by
Rankkor
2: that wasn't Thrall's first mission.
Tutorial of WC3, I lost every Orc except Thrall. And from the looks of the Caverns of Time dungeon, so did Thrall, being hes the only one who actually leaves.
o_O
WC3's tutorial was also not Thrall's first mission. Technically speaking his first time in a position of leadership was when he inherited the position of Warchief from Doomhammer, and assaulted the internment camps and broke his people free. On Caverns of Time he was also not leading a revolt, originally Taretha was meant to cause a distraction for him to escape, with her imprisoned by the time scion, we caused the distraction and he left. Not sure how that applies.
Yrel proves her worth over the course of questing. Yes her first solo mission ended terribly...which is why from then on she has Maraad at her side; make up your mind man.
She does proves her worth, but I dunno man, she still feels like "in charge" of things on Gorgrond and on Talador, and on Nagrand. People still defer to her for decisions and planning. After what happened in shadowmoon, she should have had more of an apprentice role, rather than leading the vanguard. Yes she had Maraad at her side, but not as a tactician, just a fellow warrior.
I dunno, her position feels like elevated for no reason. Bear in mind that she was nothing more than a novice apprentice at the start of tanaan, Velen sees potential in her, assigns her troops under her command, but she fails the mission. But then........ he still automatically appoints her his successor, passes his powers onto her, and from there on, in every zone she
is
in charge. Sure she has other veteran soldiers (Like Maraad and Maladar) as support, but she's still the one in charge.
That itself is what ticks me off. The story has her placed in a position of authority after proving she was unfit for the job. She proves herself worthy of the title later down the line, but she was still placed there anyways after one colossal failure.
IMO it would had made more sense if she wasn't placed in a position of leadership, she first proves her worth, and after demonstrating that her first failure was the result of lack of experience (Which she has now) she's elevated through the ranks. True, she only gets recognized as an exarch at 100, but on the other zones she's still in charge, even without the exarch title. That is what feels off for me.
And whether it's Thrall's first mission or 1 millionth, he still 'let' those shaman died when he could have tried to do something more to try to save them.....
He didn't tried to save them because there was a bigger priority at the moment, take the dragon soul to the temple before one of the hundreds of black dragons or twilight dragons above snatches him up and takes him to deathwing. He lost "some" of his troops, but accomplished the mission successfully. Very different from being assigned a mission, having your entire squad dead, failing all the objectives, hiding in a bush, and having to be rescued.
Completely different set of circumstances.
or you know, even acknowledge that they died. At least Yrel did that.
To be fair, the entire last tier of cataclysm (Hell, even the whole expansion itself) was very rushed. When exactly could he have time to mourn lost friends? Immediately after reaching the temple he's betrayed by Benedictus, and as soon as he's dispatched, there's the whole conundrum of taking the Focusing Iris, doing the ritual mumbojumbo, get on the ship, chase deathwing, shoot him with the lazor beam, and fight him on the maelstrom.
Not exactly a lot of time left for quiet contemplation. He probably did mourn them after the mission was over, and it may even be a reason why he never returned as warchief once his duties as a shaman were over. He felt unworthy of the position.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
I think you're underestimating Maraad's role with Yrel. In the mission where she becomes Exarch and you fight his ghost she explicitly refers to him as teacher and he refers to her as student. As for Velen...Well, he was Prophet Velen. Could be he knew more than he said about her potential so marked her out with his forehead thing. You know. A prophecy actually done right unlike that thing with Jaina that shall never be mentioned.
As for being in charge, I think the best thing to say about that is that the entire time, she's working with you, the Commander. She acts more like a liason, and only really takes a battle into her own hands in Nagrand assaulting that Warsong fort. See, I think you're forgetting, Rank, is that we were actually with her the whole time, and she often mentions how she's learned a lot form us.
Post by
Atik
and she often mentions how she's learned a lot form us.
Yep. Silvia was a great teacher.
Post by
Adamsm
Very different from being assigned a mission, having your entire squad dead, failing all the objectives, hiding in a bush, and having to be rescued.
Completely different set of circumstances.Like we haven't seen that hundreds of times with other characters; I think you just don't like Yrel herself and are looking for reasons to hate her to be honest Rank. I enjoyed the questing along side her, seeing Maraad teach her things as time went on. The biggest reason why she is in 'command' is the same reason why Durotan is: Maraad and Thrall are outsiders so you don't really expect the actual population to follow them over people from their own world.
He probably did mourn them after the mission was over, and it may even be a reason why he never returned as warchief once his duties as a shaman were over. He felt unworthy of the position.I doubt it to be honest.
Post by
morginar
Might be the forehead glyph that Velen gave to Yrel was little more than his power that he got from the naaru. And Yrel was the only compadiable to gain the power before he killed himself and that power would vanish.
And something to remember is that when we find her she had a solokill on a shadowmoon lt.
and later had to battle whilst the PC was in the tank. Probably not a sign of weakness.
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I think you're underestimating Maraad's role with Yrel. In the mission where she becomes Exarch and you fight his ghost she explicitly refers to him as teacher and he refers to her as student. As for Velen...Well, he was Prophet Velen. Could be he knew more than he said about her potential so marked her out with his forehead thing. You know. A prophecy actually done right unlike that thing with Jaina that shall never be mentioned.
As for being in charge, I think the best thing to say about that is that the entire time, she's working with you, the Commander. She acts more like a liason, and only really takes a battle into her own hands in Nagrand assaulting that Warsong fort.
See, I think you're forgetting, Rank, is that we were actually with her the whole time, and she often mentions how she's learned a lot form us.
lol, you got me there buddy :P
Since I haven't done the exarch trial quest, I'll concede on that point.
Very different from being assigned a mission, having your entire squad dead, failing all the objectives, hiding in a bush, and having to be rescued.
Completely different set of circumstances.Like we haven't seen that hundreds of times with other characters
No, we have not. Characters failing? very rarely happens. Characters failing on their first mission, and still being given huge responsibilities despite a blatant lack of qualifications? I haven't heard that specific one before.
I think you just don't like Yrel herself and are looking for reasons to hate her to be honest Rank.
lol no, I don't hate her. There's very few characters in this game that I actually hate. At most there are characters I dislike, and even then she's not on that list either.
I like her character, I just don't like the way they set up her learning experience. It felt rushed
to me
. If it didn't to you, well.... cool, I'm just saying why the pacing wasn't much to my particular liking.
I enjoyed the questing along side her, seeing Maraad teach her things as time went on. The biggest reason why she is in 'command' is the same reason why Durotan is: Maraad and Thrall are outsiders so you don't really expect the actual population to follow them over people from their own world.
Well, that's true and all, but don't you think there's more qualified people to serve as liaison between the native draenei and your forces? Durotan at least is a seasoned warrior. But instead of picking...... gee I dunno, Akama, Nobundo, Naielle, Maladar, or any other seasoned warrior, we pick someone with zero battle experience? Sure it worked out in the end, but its still a pretty bonkers choice if you ask me.
As an aside, I do have to wonder what "Branch" is Yrel supposed to be in charge of now that she's an Exarch.
Every exarch I've seen is in charge of one sector of the draenei people. With Akama leading the Vindicators, Maladar leading the Auchenai, Naielle leading the Rangari, Hataruu leading the crafters and artificers, and Othaar leading the diplomatic corp (Hehehe Irony)
It is to my understanding that there must always be exactly five exarchs, not for nothing they're often nicknamed "The Hand of the Prophet" (five fingers and all that). With only Hataruu and Othaar's positions open, which one will be assigned to Yrel? I'm guessing Othaar's given that she's already serving as liaison between the draenei and the azeroth expedition.(##RESPBREAK##)520##DELIM##Rankkor##DELIM##
Post by
oneforthemoney
It is to my understanding that there must always be exactly five exarchs, not for nothing they're often nicknamed "The Hand of the Prophet" (five fingers and all that). With only Hataruu and Othaar's positions open, which one will be assigned to Yrel? I'm guessing Othaar's given that she's already serving as liaison between the draenei and the azeroth expedition.
I'd agree. Really, she is the most qualified on that front.
Post by
Adamsm
Well, that's true and all, but don't you think there's more qualified people to serve as liaison between the native draenei and your forces? Durotan at least is a seasoned warrior. But instead of picking...... gee I dunno, Akama, Nobundo, Naielle, Maladar, or any other seasoned warrior, we pick someone with zero battle experience? Sure it worked out in the end, but its still a pretty bonkers choice if you ask me.Every one you mention there is busy with their own branch and group that they need to watch over; heck we see Nobundo for the first time slaughtering Demons outside of the Auch after all. Yrel survived being captured by the Iron Horde and was part of the group that escaped from the Jungle; that does mean something. Yes her first mission was a failure....but then again, look at what the mission was: Ner'zhul was in the town at the time, and the Rangari made mistakes that ended up having them captured. She could have died alongside them..but she survived again; that's a bit more important then dying in a useless glory.
Post by
matheus314
...orc fan...
Disregarded.
=/ come on man, be nice.
There's forsaken fans on this board too, that doesn't mean their taste is any less valid than yours or mine.
Totally agree. I was really ready to counterpoint his entire post, but when I read "orc fan" I ended up just disregarding it firsly because it'd be useless to convince him the opposite and to avoid even more nit picking here. ^_^
____________________________________________________________
I have a somewhat related question to you, Lore fans:
What can we be sure that never happened on AU Azeroth?
Lots of things
could
have never happened (just like Garrosh never born in AU Draenor, etc...) but there are some things that we're sure that never happened in this Azeroth that the orcs never set foot on it, like:
Ner'zhul is not the Lich King (if there even is one), therefore, there will be no Scourge.
Broxigar never went back in time with Rhonin to deal a decisive blow in the "remake" version of the War of the Ancients.
The Skull of Gul'dan never reached Azeroth (this alone has too many consequences for me to list them all here).
Death Knights have never been created.
There are no Ogres.
These are the ones I can get from the top of my head.
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