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Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Heh more or less my point Light.
Post by
Rankkor
War is honestly always going to exist in Warcraft; the game has been built around that idea since Orcs vs Humans. Yes sure there are times where the factions group up to fight together....but 98% of the time, that's because the Neutral Factions are dope slapping them into stop being idiots and focus. But as soon as the Neutrals turn away, the factions go back to fighting...because there is just way too much bad blood for them to ever properly seek peace. All of the factions, except the Gnomes, have experienced things at the hands of other races that are just too much to forget.
Heck, we see that here in our world; how long has the various hatreds and fighting been going on in the Middle East?
Not really, in the past, the horde and alliance have proven they can get along, the theramoore peace summit was going peachy until a third party intervened. If that old god attack hadn't happened, the ashenvale invasion would had come to a definitive end.
But cataclysm was a specially infuriating case because they were into full blown war already and they just paused for a few seconds to smack some twilight hammer folks, then promtly resumed their campaigns on each other (Speaking of that, the zandalari go all "WE GUNNA TAKE DA WHOLE WORLD MON" then we briefly engage them and they simply fade out for 2 years without doing anything ever again till MoP.
Sorry :S I tend to rant about cata waaaaay too much. What a steaming pile of crap, ALL of the writing in that expansion reeks of kodo poop. At least they got (kinda) better at it in MoP and WoD looks like its gonna be just as good.
Post by
Adamsm
Rank, it's the nature of the Universe that Warcraft exists in. To keep it running,the Horde and the Alliance must always be fighting each other, no matter what grander threat arrives and takes the attention for a few months.
As for the Theramore peace summit...it would have fallen apart eventually; after all, look at what happened in the Shattering, with the Hammer pretending to be Horde forces; Thrall admits the attack happened(even if they didn't know who did it) but he wouldn't offer an apology to the Alliance, even when Jaina asked him to. All it would have taken was some hot head, on either side, to start a fight and the conflict would have exploded again. The races are not really built for being peaceful; just look at the sheer number of Orcs who flocked to Garrosh's banner for bringing back the 'strength' of the race and forgetting those 'weak' lessons of Thrall.
Post by
Rankkor
Rank, it's the nature of the Universe that Warcraft exists in. To keep it running,the Horde and the Alliance must always be fighting each other, no matter what grander threat arrives and takes the attention for a few months.
As for the Theramore peace summit...it would have fallen apart eventually; after all, look at what happened in the Shattering,
with the Hammer pretending to be Horde forces
; Thrall admits the attack happened(even if they didn't know who did it) but he wouldn't offer an apology to the Alliance, even when Jaina asked him to. All it would have taken was some hot head, on either side, to start a fight and the conflict would have exploded again. The races are not really built for being peaceful; just look at the sheer number of Orcs who flocked to Garrosh's banner for bringing back the 'strength' of the race and forgetting those 'weak' lessons of Thrall.
Highlighted the important bit. That's an outsider intervention.
If no third parties intervene, both sides are perfectly capable of getting along well.
Post by
Adamsm
I'm sorry Rank, but pretty much all of the game shows otherwise. If it was true that they could get along well as the race, then the flare ups would not explode into battles like they do. Sure you have races like the Tauren, Draenei, Gnomes and Goblins who just sorta go along, but those are all low pop groups; the big ones are the ones that keep the war going because neither side can let go of the old hates.
I mean, for the Orcs, look at the support that Garrosh gained from the orcs of the Horde who willingly went along with his idea of strength.
Look at the support Varian garners when he calls for aid against forces.
Look at the Night Elves and Forsaken, who don't really need a reason to start a fight.
I still really doubt you are ever going to see world peace on Azeroth, just because the races aren't built for it.
Post by
Rankkor
The Flare ups explode into battles because so far neither of the races have been allowed a long LONG time to be at peace with one another without someone manipulating them into killing each other. They were literally goaded into hostilities right away, while the tempers were still hot.
This bit is very subjective, but I believe that if both races agree to a cease of hostilities, and no outside third party manipulates them again, they honestly CAN get along. And then, the longer they stay without fighting each other, the harder it will be for someone to make them fight.
If a third party intervenes merely months after they've signed a treaty, obviously both sides are gonna react with full blown rage, but if they tried the same trick after both sides haven't fought one another for 2 decades, they're gonna have a much tougher job.
(Though obviously that's just how I interpret both sides and their motivations, its also possible for tensions to reignite if the wrong type of leadership ever gets in charge of either faction.)
Post by
Adamsm
Rank, the only way that would happen is if they are moved to opposite sides of the world where they can't fight. None of the races would be able to hold back. You've got near immortal races with long memories and longer hatreds. You've got races that, for the last 20 years, have only ever known aggression and rage. You've got races who are convinced that they are the ultimate life form on the planet. You've got a race that exists from the dead of those who have fallen.
Hell, you've got an entire group that go insane if they don't have a chance to kill things.
Peace is not something that is normal for Azeroth. Think about how the Human Kingdoms came about; one clan conquered the other 6 and forced them to be their vassals. Look at Elves and Trolls; they've been fighting for millennium, and nothing is really going to remove that. You've got the Dwarves who are so focused on finding the past, they are always going to come into conflicts with other races over it not to mention their own inter clan conflicts.
The only truly peaceful race, the one that wasn't waging wars for survival, was the Gnomes. They were discovered 250-400 years ago by the Dwarves, and the Dwarves were shocked to find them.*
*I know the Draenei and Tauren are peaceful, but they are also survivors as well and had to battle for their lives at points.
Post by
morginar
They entered the new continent without knowing it already belonged to someone, but once they made landfall and established their new foothold, the trolls tried to expel them, and rather than pack up and pick some place else, they stood their ground. Even though that land didn't belonged to them, they had already lost their initial home and sure as hell weren't gonna be displaced again.
Same parallel goes to the orcs, as they fled the eastern kingdoms to avoid another war, and could not retreat to outland because everyone thought it destroyed, and the dark portal was dormant. They start anew in a new land, and suddenly the natives want to deny them every scrap of resource in it? If it was ok for the elves to stand their ground and wrestle it from the trolls, why is it not ok for the orcs to do the same?
The elves didn't deny them for living on kalimdor. Just not in the land they have been living in for over ten thousand years. So the orcs living and cutin in ashenvale/Azshara is a no. Though I asume with the wailing caverns that the elves tried to make the lands more fertile for the orcs. Ab the orcs did chose do live in the desert for redemtion.
As for HE and troll. Think some hostility from earlier remained, plus I belive the high elves tried to move away from the troll lands. Though many details are lacking here I think for me to argue who was wrong. The trolls might just wanted to eat the elves.
Hillsbrad Hills don't make land infertile for trees. And I thought the land looked like any other part of Lordaeron, just not plauged.
THAT'S what I'm saying, the elves left that area thousands of years ago, all you see is ruins everyone and ONE major military outpost (feathermoon), if there are any invisible villages in there, they're recent, because before the third war, the night elves were secluded in their forest on the north.
I have honestly no idea why elves should care for ferelas to build a military stronghold. Maybe druids cuz dream gate would build something. And I don't think those ruins is a valid reson. Or we would have danish runing up into Sweden/Skåne to reclaim some of their old rocks.
Well, I do think people agree that the writing was far more solid back in the strategy games. When they announced wow the first time, my literal first thought was "wait..... WTF? Horde and Alliance are enemies again? what the hell happened to the ending of warcraft 3 where they finally set aside their differences and started working together, man they better give us one hell of a good reason for why they're at each other again"
Cue wow, and the excuse was......... less than stellar. And they keep repeating the pattern of horde and alliance hating each other, take a quick break to deal with the current big bad, then resume hating each other. Its starting to look ridiculous. I mean sweet jebus, look at cata, full war in there, and yet they take a small break and work together for the zandalari crisis, and again on the molten front/hyjal, and again on 5.3 (
Notice the horde gunship and alliance gunship orbiting DS
and how the ground troops are made of horde and alliance races, and how in the skybreaker there are orc troops too)
But hey, as soon as those nuisances are out of the way, BACK TO GO A-KILLIN'
It starting to make "war" look more like a caricaturesque self-parody of it than actual real warfare =/ I'm hoping they finally cut it out now that the horde and alliance have officially made "peace" with one another.
I agree too. I dislike the whole war thing. I think it would be more logical to form something like eu. Make it financialy suicide to start a war.
As for the gunships... Why didn't Deathwing tail whip the alliance sky ship?
Post by
Adamsm
Though I asume with the wailing caverns that the elves tried to make the lands more fertile for the orcs. Ab the orcs did chose do live in the desert for redemtion.The Cenarion Circle was the ones who attempted to increase the Oasis's to cover more land...but as we saw it, it failed and let the Nightmare take a position in the world for a time.
No, the Orcs 'had' to live in the deserts because the Elves would not let them spread their borders into the forests or try to set up a trade for it. And since there was a dragon filled swamp with a city of humans to the south, a stoney rocky landscape to the north, and the Barren landscape of well the Barrens, they didn't have much choice.
As for HE and troll. Think some hostility from earlier remained, plus I belive the high elves tried to move away from the troll lands. Though many details are lacking here I think for me to argue who was wrong. The trolls might just wanted to eat the elves.Um...No. The High Elves settled in Tirisfal first and were driven off by the madness. Their next choice was a sacred location to the Amani Trolls, and rather then move on, they told the Trolls no, desecrated the place(IE tore it apart and built a city) and started a war....and if it weren't for the deal with the humans, the Trolls would have taken it back and wiped the arrogant elves off the face of Azeroth.
Post by
morginar
No, the Orcs 'had' to live in the deserts
Word of Thrall in the shattering. It was for redemtion, or something like that. Thrall picked it becouse it was harsh. Implying there where easy mode places Green Jesus didn't pick.
The Cenarion Circle was the ones who attempted to increase the Oasis's to cover more land...but as we saw it, it failed and let the Nightmare take a position in the world for a time. Explains the one tauren, though the idea is what counts. Who could have seen old god coming?
sacred location to the Amani
With a unused nexus of ley lines. And the elves did not know someone had ownership of it. It wasn't much comunication between the two.
Post by
Adamsm
The Amani Temple located there should have tipped them off.
After many more years, the high elves discovered a land in the northern forests which suited them, and founded the kingdom of Quel'Thalas. Unfortunately, they would learn that Quel’Thalas was founded on a sacred and ancient troll city. The trolls began to attack the elven settlements en masse in retaliation. Although the Amani outnumbered them ten to one, the elves utilized magic to its fullest effect and defeated the trolls.
Post by
781960
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Absolutely but look at the responses pertaining to Thrall when Wrathgate happened and how people were calling him a terrible leader because he didn't know what was going on.
That's another double-standard that gets on my nerves. When an orc (or SPECIALLY Thrall) does (or doesn't do) anything at all, its BAD.
But when a human does (or doesn't do) anything at all, its GOOD.
Varian was VERY in your face for alliance players this expansion yet I've not heard ONE single complaint. Anduin was also very very in your face too, showing up in half of pandaria as well as the legendary quest, but again nobody complains.
But hey, lets have Thrall show up in the goblin zone, ONE questchain in hyjal, ONE dungeon and ONE raid and suddenly "EHMAGERD GREEN JESUS SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS". How does that make any sense? even now in MoP thrall shows up a grand total of TWO TIMES in the whole expansion (5.1 questchain, 5.3 event) and there are still SOME people (a few of them posting less than a week ago in this very thread) complaining that the devs were too busy shoving green jesus in the game over and over.
Apparently ANY form of cameo from Thrall is deemed as bad, but if they insert King Chin every two quests, everything is right with the universe =/
Where am I being hostile? =(
I thought hostility was personal attacks and insults of which I believe I've done none, I fully admitted this was a subjective topic and that your opinion has as much merit as mine. I'm refuting your points but that's all bro'.
Take it from me. There are some on these forms who consider hostile to include proving their pro alliance points to be wrong.
hey now =( there was no need to go there man, lets keep it civil, I recognized my wording was a little too pushy on my last few posts, no need to peg others for their opinions.
Post by
oneforthemoney
It wasn't that Thrall was there. It was that the camera was throwing itself at him whenever he did show up. Varian and Anduin get a break because they are leaders for their factions, so are expected to show up as there is a war going on. Same with Garrosh and those in the upper echelons of the Horde like Sylvanas.
With Thrall, it was because he's
Thrall
that he was important. He is the ultimate shaman and is the only one who can save the world, fill the role of a dragon aspect, get torn in four by an elemental lord's minion because apparently killing him is a bad idea, and can on his own keep half the Maelstrom from going nuclear. He acted like the main character of a book. After he was the main character in the book. His matrimonial life was actually a massive underpin to the climax of two major parts of the expansion, Deathwing and Ragnaros, and it was handled just horribly.
And then...yeah, he did nothing when Garrosh was turning the orcs into Dark Horde 2.0 during Pandaria despite being the previous warchief who only stepped down to deal with the Cataclysm, only resurfacing abruptly when it's time for the final showdown. He has no sympathy from me.
Post by
Rankkor
It wasn't that Thrall was there. It was that the camera was throwing itself at him whenever he did show up. Varian and Anduin get a break because they are leaders for their factions, so are expected to show up as there is a war going on. Same with Garrosh and those in the upper echelons of the Horde like Sylvanas.
But the thing is: Thrall WAS the leader of a faction, the earthen ring. Much the same way as Tirion was the leader of the Argent Crusade and showed up in a whooping ELEVEN times during WOTLK (even getting credit for the LK kill) and yet nobody had any problem with that.
With Thrall, it was because he's
Thrall
that he was important. He is the ultimate shaman and is the only one who can save the world, fill the role of a dragon aspect, get torn in four by an elemental lord's minion because apparently killing him is a bad idea, and can on his own keep half the Maelstrom from going nuclear. He acted like the main character of a book. After he was the main character in the book. His matrimonial life was actually a massive underpin to the climax of two major parts of the expansion, Deathwing and Ragnaros, and it was handled just horribly.
Everything (or at least almost everything) you said there, are fair criticism for what has to be one of the worst written questchains in the whole game (Elemental Bonds). Having said that, having ONE really crappy questchain makes him that much of an insufferable character? Because his role in the actual GAME was practically non-existant prior to 4.3. I'm serious, you never once saw him in any of the zones save for a tiny intro before Stonecore and the Goblin starting zone, that's it. He never showed up again except during the final patch. I can think of a few worse offenders that have humped the spotlight in much worse ways, and yet never got even a fraction of the flak that Thrall got.
And FYI at no point is thrall ever highlighted as the sole reason the maelstrom didn't go nuclear. There were multiple shamans there too, and in the book its also shown that they take turns holding the maelstrom together, because everyone needs to eat and sleep. So saying that he's acting like a mary sue due to helding the maelstrom by himself is really unfair because he didn't, and that was shown both in game and in the books.
And then...yeah, he did nothing when Garrosh was turning the orcs into Dark Horde 2.0 during Pandaria despite being the previous warchief who only stepped down to deal with the Cataclysm, only resurfacing abruptly when it's time for the final showdown. He has no sympathy from me.
Now, bear in mind that I'm only drawing conjectures here, and that I could be wrong, after all I don't remember your opinion on what I'm about to say, so If I'm mistaken, please correct me and I'll gladly admit my mistake.
But...... if you feel this way about thrall, do you have ANY sympathy for Jaina? This is the debate I was having with a few folks here a few pages back. Thrall gets SO MUCH flak for all the mistakes HE makes, such as not keeping a closer eye on the undercity, the horrible experiments, the RAS playing Doctor Macabro, Varimathras manipulating stuff behind scenes, and then appointing Garrosh as Warchief and doing nothing afterwards.
All of those are awful horrible decisions and people are very much right to point them out and hold them against him, but I don't see ANYONE doing the same for the piss poor choices made by other leaders, instead, I see people goign "Ohh poor jaina, she's gone through sooo much tragedy" when she either willingly aided with her forces to attack the horde on multiple fronts (Unprovoked I must add, there was a treaty in place when those attacks happened) or (as adamsm suggested) she did absolutely jack squat as her own troops went AWOL on her ass and joined Varian's crusade against the horde, looting and pillaging and killing everything horde on the way.
I just can't wrap my head around how can some people (I'm not directly accusing you specifically, just putting this out there that a lot of people do say this) can say that the attack on Taurajo was perfectly justified, but the attack on theramoore was an attrocity, even in-universe the characters on both sides say this, when in reality, Theramoore was more than asking to get nuked to kingdom come for the many many MANY attacks its troops did to the horde on multiple fronts.
Then we get to the HORRIBLE piss poor choices made by Varian, such as leaving his kingdom undefended and relying on improvised militias, and ragtag bunchs of misfits to protect themselves against the many menaces that go their way because for their king, taking over a piece of land on the other side of the continent is more important than safeguarding his own people. But hey, who cares about that? instead lets lampoon that buffoon Thrall for putting garrosh as warchief and doing nothing. Its this "lets ignore all the screwups made by everyone else and instead focus on the screwups made by Thrall" that annoys me, just as badly as "hey lets ignore the many IN YO FACE moments every other major character gets and instead complain EVERY SINGLE TIME thrall gets any form of cameo"
tsk tsk tsk.
(Pardon me if my tone seems agressive =/ but this is a really hair-pulling trend I've noticed lately)
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Thrall has shown up at least twice as much as the second highest faction leader.
Where? please tell me where?
In cataclysm? he shows up on the goblin starting zone, the intro to stonecore, one really awful quest in hyjal, 1 dungeon and 1 raid. That's a lot of appereances, but there are others that have shown their faces WAAAAAAY more.
Meanwhile, Baine, The Council of Three Hammers, Tyrande, and others have practically been left out to dry, Vol'jin only now getting the spotlight because he's the bloody warchief now.
Yes there are a lot of other faction leaders that have gotten next to zero love since the start of the game (Lor'themar was until recently the worst case since he's had pretty much ZERO involvement with the plot save for a microscopic "blink&miss" cameo on the quel'delar questchain. He only had finally his big break in MoP) but again, there are other faction leaders who've humped the spotlight way worse than thrall with practically zero of the venomous hate he's gotten. WHY?
Meanwhile, Thrall is always right. Thrall is always good. Thrall is perfect. Anywhere he shows up, he wins. I'm a little sick of the attitude. It's poor writing.
You know this is not true. EVERYONE in-universe and out has chewed Thrall out for his really horrible call of making Garrosh a warchief, and nobody can ever say he always makes the right call, because he's made a ton of screw ups that the fanbase just LOVES to point out.
Meanwhile, King Chin's decisions are always portrayed as being in the right, he NEVER EVER loses any fight, and everywhere he goes, everyone agrees with him and NOBODY calls him out on his really bad calls (such as STILL leaving his kingdom unprotected just to claim a piece of land on the other side of the continent). Varian was portrayed in MoP just as bad as thrall was in cata, and yet nobody complains about that. WHY?
Anywhere he shows up, he wins.
Right, because his duel with garrosh went so well we didn't needed a final boss for the expansion. Ohh wait.........
He also got his ass handed to him by Fandral, by Mannoroth, by Benedictus (Who knocks him out when he transforms into his twilight form) by that first ice boss that freezes him in a block of ice and would had killed him if we weren't there, and by many others.
meanwhile Varian, NEVER loses a fight. EVER, not only he never loses, the times he fights, he wins wihtout even trying, or even looking tired, without even taking so much as a scratch. But again, no green skin = acceptable.
See where I'm having a problem with the double-standard yet?
Post by
355559
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Thrall AND Varian are some of the biggest problems in the story right now, among others. And quite frankly if they both got shot into the twisting nether to infiniternity, I would be glad.
There's something we could both agree on.
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