This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Adamsm
Um...Rank, the actual settlements all across Kalimdor says otherwise. Feathermoon did not just 'appear' after the Third War, it was a firmly settled location. The Night Elf 'awakening' is that they headed out into the farther world; the western coast of the continent were their lands and had been since the Sundering; the Orcs were invaders. And considering the way the Night Elves reacted to Thrall's Horde cutting trees, you cannot be surprised at all that they are going to go after the Goblins for destroying the natural landscape.
And I'm gonna ask again Rank: Dial back the hostility will you.
Post by
Rankkor
Um...Rank, the actual settlements all across Kalimdor says otherwise. Feathermoon did not just 'appear' after the Third War, it was a firmly settled location.
"all across"? Zero in azshara, zero in winterspring, zero in durotar, zero in the barrens, zero in dustwallow marsh, zero in thousand needles, zero in tanaris, zero in un'goro, zero in desolace.
Having a couple of places in a few zones doesn't make the entire continent yours.
And considering the way the Night Elves reacted to Thrall's Horde cutting trees, you cannot be surprised at all that they are going to go after the Goblins for destroying the natural landscape.
They don't mind at all when the gnomes do it. And they've done it on several fronts, not just in Dun Morog, just look at the oil spill they caused in Borean Tundra. They have no desire to inhabit Azshara, and have stayed away from it for thousands of years. Why should it be any business of them what the orcs do to it? why should it be any business of them what the humans do with their logging camps in elwynn and elsewhere?
And I'm gonna ask again Rank: Dial back the hostility will you.
Where am I being hostile? =(
I thought hostility was personal attacks and insults of which I believe I've done none, I fully admitted this was a subjective topic and that your opinion has as much merit as mine. I'm refuting your points but that's all bro'.
Post by
Adamsm
Azshara: Cursed.
Barrens: Desert
Durotar: Desert
Mulgore: Mesa landscape no trees.
Dustwallow: An inhospitable landscape and Black Dragons...including a daughter of Deathwing.
Thousand Needles: Desert
Tanaris: Desert
Un'goro Crater: Jungle that is possibly 'cursed', full of giant predators, and a volcano; no one lives there, as the out post is an attempt to create a settlement, but it's probably gonna fail eventually.
Silithus: Desert with an Old God in it.
Winterspring: Furbolg lands and Blue Dragons; of course, there is a Barrow up there too so may want to reconsider that Rank.
But any place on Kalimdor where there are forests, where there are places out of the sun, the Night Elves had landscapes.
And they were pissed about Azshara because of what was being done to it, and yes, the Horde was making moves into it...since there is a war on, it would make sense they would want to disrupt a new homeland being created, especially after the problems they've had with the previous new tenants on their continent.
And you may be refuting points, but it's coming off hostile man.
Post by
Rankkor
Azshara: Cursed.
Barrens: Desert
Durotar: Desert
Mulgore: Mesa landscape no trees.
Dustwallow: An inhospitable landscape and Black Dragons...including a daughter of Deathwing.
Thousand Needles: Desert
Tanaris: Desert
Un'goro Crater: Jungle that is possibly 'cursed', full of giant predators, and a volcano; no one lives there, as the out post is an attempt to create a settlement, but it's probably gonna fail eventually.
Silithus: Desert with an Old God in it.
Winterspring: Furbolg lands and Blue Dragons; of course, there is a Barrow up there too so may want to reconsider that Rank.
You're missing the point man, they didn't LIVED in any of those. If they had their reasons, so be it, but the point is, they didn't inhabited those regions, so they have no claim to them. If they do, then by rights the entire eastern kingdoms should belong to the trolls, after all, their empire stretched all the way from north to south.
How come its perfectly fine for the humans and dwarves and whatever to deny the trolls their right to their lands, but at the same time, claim rights to lands the orcs are trying to live on? doesn't that sounds a midge bit hypocrite to you?
But any place on Kalimdor where there are forests, where there are places out of the sun, the Night Elves had landscapes.
So did the trolls, and yet look, if they try to claim any spot where there are humans they will deny them their land. Just because they used to live there thousands of years ago doesn't mean it still belongs to them.
And you may be refuting points, but it's coming off hostile man.
How? I'm not asking out of sarcasm but genuine concern here, if I wanna stop doing it, I kinda need to know where it is that I'm doing it.
I thought hostility meant disrespecting other members of the forum, calling them offensive names, or going into personal attacks and such, and again, I don't believe I've done any of the sort. If I am being hostile unknowingly, I could use some help being pointed out where so I can tone it down.
Post by
Adamsm
And that's my point Rank; it's war because they are trying to take land away from the current settlers. Sure, back when the world was new the Trolls ruled pretty much everything and they broke the back of the mighty Aqir empire...and then they lost, and lost and lost and kept on losing, their once mighty tribes and clans steadily being worn away and driven out of their lands.
But that's not the same as the Night Elves; the Night Elves are living on some of the lands that the Horde is attempting to expand into, and they are defending their lands(such as Stonetalon, Ashenvale, and Feralas).
I know the Night Elves shot first, I'm not disputing that...but they were defending their lands. Even now, if you notice, they may attack back against the Horde, they don't actually keep going into the lands and attempt to take them over, until Azshara. And that to me is again, the Goblins are trying to set up a new home land, and the last time that happened, the Elves lost their immortality.
It's not right, or correct, but from a military stand point, the Night Elf move was a good one; don't let the Horde get a new supply point set up.
The hostility is how you respond some times man; I know there are posters that rub ya the wrong way, but when you get going on some topics, it's not 'this is my opinion, please refute' it's more like 'this is my opinion, take it or leave it!'. Maybe it's the language thing, but the last few posts have seemed more like you want me to back down then continue the discussion.
Post by
Rankkor
And that's my point Rank; it's war because they are trying to take land away from the current settlers. Sure, back when the world was new the Trolls ruled pretty much everything and they broke the back of the mighty Aqir empire...and then they lost, and lost and lost and kept on losing, their once mighty tribes and clans steadily being worn away and driven out of their lands.
But that's not the same as the Night Elves; the Night Elves are living on some of the lands that the Horde is attempting to expand into, and they are defending their lands(such as Stonetalon, Ashenvale, and Feralas).
But what about the places that they DON'T live in, yet they also refuse the horde to live in as well? That's my point man, their empire under the queen used to cover the whole continent, but after the first war of the ancients, once the males went into the emerald dream, the females retreated to their forest and never left again. You can see a bunch of ruins from the ancient night elf empire spread across kalimdor but they never resettled those zones, I named you all the ones they don't inhabit (and I'll do so again: Durotar, Barrens, Mulgore, Dustwallow, Thousand Needles, Desolace, Azshara, Winterspring, Un'goro, Tanaris.) All of those are zones they've not lived in for thousands of years. They had their reasons for not living there, but that's besides the point, the main thing is that they don't live in there and haven't done so for thousands of years, so why do they have any rights to dictate who ELSE lives there?
They have a point in defending Darkshore, Ashenvale, Moonglade, hell, I could even agree stonetalon (though that's pushing it considering they have just a single barrow den in there and nothing else) and Feralas (even though they don't have any villages or cities in there, just a single military base) but why are they entitled to dictate who can live in the other regions of kalimdor?
In the specific case of Feralas, that place has nothing but a single military base and nothing more. Under those rules you could argue that Swamp of Sorrows and Badlands belong to the horde and not the alliance by virtue of the former having a military base in each while the latter doesn't.
I know the Night Elves shot first, I'm not disputing that...but they were defending their lands. Even now, if you notice, they may attack back against the Horde, they don't actually keep going into the lands and attempt to take them over, until Azshara.
Not really, they made a push into stonetalon too, even though the tauren have been living in there for at least 2 or 3 generations. They also made a push into desolace, and as of cataclysm, even to Thousand Needles, and they back the alliance in expelling the horde from other regions of kalimdor, regions that they have no right to claim, by virtue of not living there nor wanting to in the first place.
And that to me is again, the Goblins are trying to set up a new home land, and the last time that happened, the Elves lost their immortality.
wait whoa whoa whoa back up a bit. When exactly did the goblins had anything to do with them losing their immortality?
It's not right, or correct, but from a military stand point, the Night Elf move was a good one; don't let the Horde get a new supply point set up.
Well, this is one of the things that irks me, how when they make a move against the horde, they justify it as "its pragmatic from a military point of view" and necessary, and don't let the horde get supply caravans, and blah blah. But if the horde does anything pragmatic on their military campaigns, its treated both in-universe and by the players as the most heinous monstrous act ever (Forsaken securing gilneas, The horde destroying theramoore, and a large segment of the officer ranks of the alliance, etc etc)
How come if the alliance does it its fine but if the horde does it its not? I'm not saying you specifically say that, but its the common point of view held by a lot of people, both fans of the game, and actual characters in it.
The hostility is how you respond some times man; I know there are
posters
that rub ya the wrong way
not quite. In all my time here I don't think I've ever disliked any user except 4 that are all gone by now. Even if I disagree with a lot of folks in the Lore discussions I actually like a lot everyone here.
but when you get going on some topics, it's not 'this is my opinion, please refute' it's more like 'this is my opinion, take it or leave it!'. Maybe it's the language thing, but
the last few posts have seemed more like you want me to back down then continue the discussion
.
That couldn't possibly be further from what I intended. And I apologize if it seemed that way U_U
I like debating, and I like discussions (so long as they're carried in a civil way with no personal attacks involved) and even when I don't agree with others, the refute back and forth of the different points of view is entertaining to me, and I don't want in any way to discourage that. I'm sorry if my tone seemed to indicate otherwise.
Post by
Adamsm
To Feralas; Rank, you are confusing game world with lore world. Feralas was populated by quite a few settlements beyond Feathermoon.
To Stonetalon; Stonetalon Peak was sacred to Night Elves and Tauren, but they have had a lot more settlements there then the Horde do, and have expanded that as of Cata.
To Thousand Needles; the Night Elves always had a settlement on the border between Feralas and the Needle, then the place was flooded and suddenly they have Grimtotmes invading them....do you expect them to do nothing? Also, if you notice, the Night Elves don't move into the Needles and set up shop.
As to the why they dictate who lives where...because they see it as their homeland. Same as the Forsaken dictate that only the Undead are to live in their lands, the Humans dictate that it should be their people in their lands and etc etc etc.
And the Goblins didn't, but the Horde and Alliance forces showed up, the Scourge/Legion chased them, and the Night Elves were forced to blow up their World Tree to save the day....and now here comes the Goblins, strip mining and clear cutting the lands, altering things and actively working to support the Orcs who are the main enemy of the Night Elves. It would be stupid that they don't attack, since the supplies of Azshara are going to the Horde War Machine.
And the reason it's treated is worse is because how it's done: Forsaken invade with the lesser Blight and kill the Gilnean Prince then take the daughter of the GLF captive and threaten her death if the leader doesn't step down.
And come on man, I know you hate Jaina but you have to admit that the Mana Bomb is up there with the Blight when it comes to cause death and destruction; again, the descriptions of everyone who died to the Bomb have them with horrified pain twisted faces, those people did not die easily.
Post by
Rankkor
To Feralas; Rank, you are confusing game world with lore world. Feralas was populated by quite a few settlements beyond Feathermoon.
I'm not convinced. I know the scale of the villages in-game is not representative of their scale in the lore (Goldshire ingame has 3 buildings and 20 peolpe, in the lore its a huge village with over 6000 people) but if lorewise the night elves had any form of civilization in feralas, it would had shown ingame. I mean come on, they have one of their biggest former capitals right there and they never moved into them. The entire zone is dotted with ruins of their ancient civilization now claimed by ogres and other creatures.
Are we to assume there's hundreds of thousands of invisible unnamed villages on every zone that belong to different races? How are we to prove what exists and what doesn't?
To Stonetalon; Stonetalon Peak was sacred to Night Elves and Tauren, but
they have had a lot more settlements there then the Horde do
, and have expanded that as of Cata.
Funny how I never saw them during vanilla. Just the barrow den at the peak and nothing more. The Tauren however had 3 different villages there (Though one was razed by the grimtotem)
As to the why they dictate who lives where...because they see it as their homeland.
This is completely illogical to me. They see these lands as their homeland but they don't live in it? Again I can understand their desire to defend and expel intruders from ashenvale, darkshore, whatever. But seriously, THE WHOLE CONTINENT? As soon as the horde tries to move into any kalimdor zone, there goes the alliance with the aid of the night elves to drive them out citing that the land isn't theirs for the taking.
If they don't live there, who are they to decide who the land belongs to or not? It doesn't compute man.
And the Goblins didn't, but the Horde and Alliance forces showed up, the Scourge/Legion chased them, and the Night Elves were forced to blow up their World Tree to save the day....
And that has to do with the goblins how?
and now here comes the Goblins, strip mining and clear cutting the lands, altering things
They don't care about that land, they don't live in it and consider it cursed, so why should they care what others do to it? If they do care about nature so much, why don't they care about the damage that the alliance does to the environment?
and actively working to support the Orcs who are the main enemy of the Night Elves. It would be stupid that they don't attack, since the supplies of Azshara are going to the Horde War Machine.
Another logical fallacy. Orcs getting lumber from Azshara = less orcs trying to get lumber from Ashenvale. if there's to be peace there needs to be a compromise.
Lets break this down piece by piece. The orcs need timber to survive, that's a fact. The elves don't want the orcs to take timber from ashenvale, as those trees are both sacred and their home = that's fair. The elves hate Azshara, consider it cursed, and want nothing to do with it, and don't use its resources. The orcs take resources from Azshara which could lead to less necessity from resources to ashenvale = Attack orcs and prevent them from taking them?
HOW DOES THAT MAKES SENSE? X_X
And the reason it's treated is worse is because how it's done: Forsaken invade with the lesser Blight
I will agree that the forsaken used unnecessary cruelty during the invasion, but it was still necessary to secure their borders. War aint pretty. Funny how that justification is wielded often by alliance but if used by the horde everyone gets into a fit.
then take the daughter of the GLF captive and threaten her death if the leader doesn't step down.
Whoa whoa whoa, you see this as a BAD THING? believe it or not, harsh as that meassure was, that was a DIPLOMATIC solution to warfare, and it bloody worked. You know what would had happened had sylvannas not made that move? big ass battle, and regardless of who won it, thousands of lives would had been lost in the battle. By taking a hostage, Sylvannas ensured a peaceful solution to the Silverpine war, and forced a cease of hostilities, and once this was done, honored her end of the deal and released the prisoner unharmed.
How in heavens name could that be seen as a morally incorrect course of action? had the roles been reversed I'm finding it hard to imagine ANY leader within the alliance that would had chosen the diplomatic peaceful solution to an engagement with the horde, let alone honoring their word once the hostilities cease. (and no, SoO doesn't count, that was the horde and the alliance fighting against Garrosh and his goons, and once the battle was over, the alliance decided to not screw over the horde. I'm talking about having an Alliance vs Horde battle, and the alliance choosing to end the battle via a non-violent solution, and then keep their end of the bargain. I'm REALLY having a hard time trying to picture any leader of the alliance doing that other than Anduin and maybe Velen)
And come on man, I know you hate Jaina but you have to admit that the Mana Bomb is up there with the Blight when it comes to cause death and destruction; again, the descriptions of everyone who died to the Bomb have them with horrified pain twisted faces, those people did not die easily.
Why? Its instant death. Big flash of light, and poof, you're gone. Its not like they languished in the ground whithering in pain for long excruciating moments before gasping their final breath. It was BANG, and adios. Quick and clean. The blight is a horrible way to die, we've seen before that its not instantaneous, and in some cases EXTREMELY painful (on the wrathgate cinematic there's an orc having his face melting off....... AUCH) but the mana bomb? quick and clean man.
Quick and clean. Not that I'm saying it should be used over and over (it ravages the land and renders it infertile and barren, more or less destroying the bit where its used forever) but its not really any cruel and unusual method of killing troops in battle. Not when you have mages shooting fireballs, warlocks twisting your flesh with shadow, Death Knights infecting you with horrible diseases that boil your blood, or rogues shanking you with poisoned blades.
Post by
Adamsm
No of course not Rank....never mind the pain, or the fact that bodies were stuck floating in small time warps, or the bodies that suddenly shattered into a million pieces....yeah, just a quick flash and things were over.....Of course, since we didn't get the view point for anyone, for all we know that quick flash, what with the time warping that was occurring, the people who died that way could have been in pain for the Naaru knows how long; again, pretty much every body found had expressions of pain and terror on their face.
Post by
Rankkor
No of course not Rank....never mind the pain, or the fact that bodies were stuck floating in small time warps, or the bodies that suddenly shattered into a million pieces....yeah, just a quick flash and things were over.....Of course, since we didn't get the view point for anyone, for all we know that quick flash, what with the time warping that was occurring, the people who died that way could have been in pain for the Naaru knows how long; again, pretty much every body found had expressions of pain and terror on their face.
So did the dwarves still frozen in Thunderfall when Thorim smashed the ground with Krolmir, insta-freezing them all in death and in time (some of them are floating mid-air).
That doesn't mean it was a prolonged excruciating death, just a flash and boom, you're gone. And it was a manabomb not a timebomb, unless there's proof that thing had time-altering capabilities I'm not buying it. It used the Heart of Magic from the blues as a power source, not the sands of time from the bronze.
The mana bombs used in outland (yes the elves of kael used a few) didn't had any time-altering capacities, and just like in theramoore, you detonate one and boom, everyone dies instantly and then its all over.
Still think taking a shadow-bolt to the face or a Mind Blast outta hurt a lot more.
Post by
Adamsm
/shake head Alright, then we'll let it drop here.
Post by
morginar
They had no interest in Azshara for thousands of years, but hey, as soon as the horde claimed it, all of the sudden they DO want it. pfft.
Rank, Warcraft 3: TFT first map of the night elf campain.
Maiev runs thrught night elven villages in Azshara.
It takes around 15 mins or so to go from winterspring to silithus ingame but in lore it takes a lot longer than that.
Thats becouse Azeroth is biger in the lore and villages that we can not see ingame exist here and there.
The night elf villages are like the dragon shaped rock outside of durnholme. There in lore, not the game.
Post by
Rankkor
They had no interest in Azshara for thousands of years, but hey, as soon as the horde claimed it, all of the sudden they DO want it. pfft.
Rank, Warcraft 3: TFT first map of the night elf campain.
Maiev runs thrught night elven villages in Azshara.
I'm still not fully convinced but you do have a good point there.
I will point out however that a lot of things have changed from the RTS games when they transitioned to wow, such as dalaran being a cross-shaped island, Arthas not needing a traitor to breach the defenses of quel'thalas, etc etc.
The loading screen
has azshara as practically a part of ashenvale, and all green and pretty, whereas in the game its radically different.
It takes around 15 mins or so to go from winterspring to silithus ingame but in lore it takes a lot longer than that.
Thats becouse Azeroth is biger in the lore and villages that we can not see ingame exist here and there.
I mentioned this before that I know the scale of the world isn't the same ingame as it is in the lore (for example Goldshire is just 3 buildings and 20 NPCs ingame, but in the lore its a huge city with over 6000 people)
The night elf villages are like the dragon shaped rock outside of durnholme. There in lore, not the game.
Not the same, Durnhold has a lot of rocks around it, just none of them shaped like a dragon, that could just as easily be the game designers not being on the same page as the book writers, after all, golden (same author who mentioned the dragon-shaped rock) also said Oshu'gun was triangular and smooth, and ingame its not. Not even close to a triangle.
Having said all of that, just for the sake of argument, I'm willing to concede, and lets pretend there's dozens of unnamed villages here and there that we just don't see in the game. That still doesn't changes a thing, the alliance has no more right to dictate where the horde can live, than the horde does. Just as Kalimdor doesn't belong exclusively to the orcs, it also doesn't belong exclusively to the night elves. The elves willingly abandoned several zones where they've had zero presence for the past thousands of years, and other races have as much right to live in them as anyone else.
Post by
morginar
I'm still not fully convinced but you do have a good point there.
I will point out however that a lot of things have changed from the RTS games when they transitioned to wow, such as dalaran being a cross-shaped island, Arthas not needing a traitor to breach the defenses of quel'thalas, etc etc. The loading screen has azshara as practically a part of ashenvale, and all green and pretty, whereas in the game its radically different.
Ofcourse things have changed. Now the arcane addiction is not leathal. And back in WC3 there wasn't that many geotypes. But when they worked with wow they added a lot more geotypes to keep the zone difrent and intresting. Imagine how kalimdor would look like if Northern Kalimdor would all be like Ashenvale and Southern woul be all like the barrens. It would be dull.
Not the same, Durnhold has a lot of rocks around it, just none of them shaped like a dragon, that could just as easily be the game designers not being on the same page as the book writers, after all, golden (same author who mentioned the dragon-shaped rock) also said Oshu'gun was triangular and smooth, and ingame its not. Not even close to a triangle. You have a point there. For a more acurate similarities I can point out the dungeon wher Trall first meet Jaina and the prophet in Stonetalon mountains. That cave is no more. Even thought it would be a neat 5m.
Having said all of that, just for the sake of argument, I'm willing to concede, and lets pretend there's dozens of unnamed villages here and there that we just don't see in the game. That still doesn't changes a thing, the alliance has no more right to dictate where the horde can live, than the horde does. Just as Kalimdor doesn't belong exclusively to the orcs, it also doesn't belong exclusively to the night elves. The elves willingly abandoned several zones where they've had zero presence for the past thousands of years, and other races have as much right to live in them as anyone else.
Ofcourse. No one has that right, but neither have anyone the right to waltz over into someone elses border and claim it for their own and just butcher the original inhabitants. Even if they need wood or whatnot (There are more places with wood than the night elven lands). Germay had a sour time prior to WW2 (becouse WW1 happen). But that gave them no right to conquer the french mines they needed for their economy.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm still not fully convinced but you do have a good point there.
I will point out however that a lot of things have changed from the RTS games when they transitioned to wow, such as dalaran being a cross-shaped island, Arthas not needing a traitor to breach the defenses of quel'thalas, etc etc. The loading screen has azshara as practically a part of ashenvale, and all green and pretty, whereas in the game its radically different.
Ofcourse things have changed. Now the arcane addiction is not leathal. And back in WC3 there wasn't that many geotypes. But when they worked with wow they added a lot more geotypes to keep the zone difrent and intresting. Imagine how kalimdor would look like if Northern Kalimdor would all be like Ashenvale and Southern woul be all like the barrens. It would be dull.
Again, another good point. I mean, northrend in W3 was just snow, nothing but snow, ingame its a lot more varied than that.
Not the same, Durnhold has a lot of rocks around it, just none of them shaped like a dragon, that could just as easily be the game designers not being on the same page as the book writers, after all, golden (same author who mentioned the dragon-shaped rock) also said Oshu'gun was triangular and smooth, and ingame its not. Not even close to a triangle. You have a point there. For a more acurate similarities I can point out the dungeon wher Trall first meet Jaina and the prophet in Stonetalon mountains. That cave is no more. Even thought it would be a neat 5m.
Well it would be hard to add it to the game, that cave was underground and (if my memory serves me correctly) it collapsed.
Having said all of that, just for the sake of argument, I'm willing to concede, and lets pretend there's dozens of unnamed villages here and there that we just don't see in the game. That still doesn't changes a thing, the alliance has no more right to dictate where the horde can live, than the horde does. Just as Kalimdor doesn't belong exclusively to the orcs, it also doesn't belong exclusively to the night elves. The elves willingly abandoned several zones where they've had zero presence for the past thousands of years, and other races have as much right to live in them as anyone else.
Ofcourse. No one has that right, but neither have anyone the right to waltz over into someone elses border and claim it for their own and just butcher the original inhabitants.
Why not? the high elves did it to the trolls. And so did the humans once elves gave them the gift of magic.
Even if they need wood or whatnot (There are more places with wood than the night elven lands).
Where? the night elves lay claim to every piece of wood in kalimdor. Ashenvale? theirs, Darkshore? theirs, Azshara? theirs, Feralas? theirs. Hyjal? Not only theirs but also sacred ancient hallowed ground, the tauren would not allow it, and the ancients would smite down anyone who tried. Felwood? Yeah that wood is no longer useful. Winterspring? Technically feasable, but it would be ridiculously hard to transport the wood to durotar considering all the MANY dangers along the way (The legion forces in felwood, and the alliance forces in ashenvale)
And those are the only dense forested areas in the continent other than Un'goro which isn't feasable to set up a logging operation considering that the area is full of silithid, titan constructs, dinosaurs, giant beasts, and in close proximity to old god territory. There's a reason why even today neither the horde nor alliance has ever had a major presence in there, and the one neutral base that dared to do so met a rather brutal end.
Unless I'm forgetting another one, there is nowhere else to harvest wood in kalimdor, the elves laid claim to the only relatively safe ones, and the rest are too unfeasable to set up shop. The horde was perfectly willing to BUY the wood from the alliance, and it was the alliance (or rather, bonehead varian) who backed out of that deal, even though it could had saved many lives and prevented many hostilities, while still giving both sides something to win: Money for the alliance, and resources for the horde.
This was a case of both sides being too stubborn to compromise. The alliance was too stubborn because they refused to either sell wood to the horde, or allow them to use at least ONE zone to get their supplies. They expected the horde to simply roll over and die. And the horde was too stubborn because just as they could had purchased the wood from the alliance, they could had also purchased it from other factions, such as the Argent Crusade, the Steamwheedle Cartel, etc. They could had also set up logging operations in plenty of areas in the eastern kingdoms that are relatively safe (Such as Stranglethorn Vale, and Swamp of Sorrows) and then export the wood back to kalimdor.
But since neither side wanted to compromise, or look for another solution, we got war. Its that simple.
Germay had a sour time prior to WW2 (becouse WW1 happen). But that gave them no right to conquer the french mines they needed for their economy.
Hey, what did we said about not using more WW2 analogies? =(
Just in case: That happened because of the ridiculously oppressive treaty forced on germany at the end of WW1. If the winning side had been a little more reasonable when they demanded reparations, the rise of the Nazi would had probably never happened. But if you push someone hard enough, its only a matter of time before they snap. Not that I am excusing in any way the ethnic genocide that followed, I'm just saying that the unreasonable taxation imposed on germany is what gave way to horrible people to rise to power.
I suppose there is a similarity up to a degree with the orcs, many were disenfranchised with Thrall because the orcs were starving, their land was barren and devoid of any natural resources, and the cataclysm only made things worse. They tried to obtain their resources in a more civil way and were denied, and then they were simply enduring brutal colds and starvation. It was these conditions that made way for anyone who promises change, to rise to power. Garrosh promised prosperity, economic boom, and more, and once he got enough power, its when things got crazy. Had the orcs simply lived on more prosperous conditions where they weren't starving, people like garrosh wouldn't be able to gain so much power or popularity.
At least that's what I think.
Post by
Monday
WW2 comparisons are completely valid, imo. Just not Hitler ones.
Post by
Rankkor
WW2 comparisons are completely valid, imo. Just not Hitler ones.
I usually consider it forum etiquette to not make needless nazi comparisons just to highlight that whoever its being compared is "evil". Other than that, I don't mind, though if possible I usually try to use other wars as parallels to avoid going to the obvious target.
Post by
morginar
Well it would be hard to add it to the game, that cave was underground and (if my memory serves me correctly) it collapsed.
I do not think it colapsed. And it could be added as a instance.
Why not? the high elves did it to the trolls. And so did the humans once elves gave them the gift of magic. The high elves did so unknowingly, ironicaly it was becouse they where pushed out of their original setelment by forest trolls and random crazynees. And the nexus of ley-lines might have had a guiding hand to where to build their civilazation.
And using trolls is not the best example as they are rather agresive. And if you start a war and lose, historicaly you lose teritory, germany lost lands in the first world war for a not a second world war comparison.
Where? the night elves lay claim to every piece of wood in kalimdor. Ashenvale? theirs, Darkshore? theirs, Azshara? theirs, Feralas? theirs. Hyjal? Not only theirs but also sacred ancient hallowed ground, the tauren would not allow it, and the ancients would smite down anyone who tried. Felwood? Yeah that wood is no longer useful. Winterspring? Technically feasable, but it would be ridiculously hard to transport the wood to durotar considering all the MANY dangers along the way (The legion forces in felwood, and the alliance forces in ashenvale)
And those are the only dense forested areas in the continent other than Un'goro which isn't feasable to set up a logging operation considering that the area is full of silithid, titan constructs, dinosaurs, giant beasts, and in close proximity to old god territory. There's a reason why even today neither the horde nor alliance has ever had a major presence in there, and the one neutral base that dared to do so met a rather brutal end.
Unless I'm forgetting another one, there is nowhere else to harvest wood in kalimdor, the elves laid claim to the only relatively safe ones, and the rest are too unfeasable to set up shop. The horde was perfectly willing to BUY the wood from the alliance, and it was the alliance (or rather, bonehead varian) who backed out of that deal, even though it could had saved many lives and prevented many hostilities, while still giving both sides something to win: Money for the alliance, and resources for the horde.
This was a case of both sides being too stubborn to compromise. The alliance was too stubborn because they refused to either sell wood to the horde, or allow them to use at least ONE zone to get their supplies. They expected the horde to simply roll over and die. And the horde was too stubborn because just as they could had purchased the wood from the alliance, they could had also purchased it from other factions, such as the Argent Crusade, the Steamwheedle Cartel, etc. They could had also set up logging operations in plenty of areas in the eastern kingdoms that are relatively safe (Such as Stranglethorn Vale, and Swamp of Sorrows) and then export the wood back to kalimdor.
But since neither side wanted to compromise, or look for another solution, we got war. Its that simple.
The orcs could have wood shiped to them from grizzly hills, stranglethorn or hillsbrad. If they wanted local then there is Ferelas. I don't think that the elven setelments there are that old. Might just have been added there for the old ruins, emerald dread stuff and wild hipogryphs. And I have not heard of any isues with the new tauren campt there. Then there is Thunder ridge pre cata and overgrowth post cata in the barrens.
And if you gonna blame the elves for not traiding with the horde. I think it was also to add sparks to create a war from nothing. Even thought it doesn't affect the night elves at all. Would be more logical if it was becouse of warsong clan moving into ashenvale.
If anything they can addapt their materials used to build houses. In nagrand they build houses out of clay. That is a more logical choise to build stuff out of than wood. And coal can be mined to heat houses. Or use the ragefire chasm. Make use of the shamans to use geothermal power for heating.
Realy I think blizzard just wanted to put war into warcraft. And look what we got.
Post by
Rankkor
The high elves did so unknowingly, ironically it was because they where pushed out of their original setelment by forest trolls and random crazinesses. And the nexus of ley-lines might have had a guiding hand to where to build their civilization.
They entered the new continent without knowing it already belonged to someone, but once they made landfall and established their new foothold, the trolls tried to expel them, and rather than pack up and pick some place else, they stood their ground. Even though that land didn't belonged to them, they had already lost their initial home and sure as hell weren't gonna be displaced again.
Same parallel goes to the orcs, as they fled the eastern kingdoms to avoid another war, and could not retreat to outland because everyone thought it destroyed, and the dark portal was dormant. They start anew in a new land, and suddenly the natives want to deny them every scrap of resource in it? If it was ok for the elves to stand their ground and wrestle it from the trolls, why is it not ok for the orcs to do the same?
And using trolls is not the best example as they are rather agresive. And if you start a war and lose...
And the night elves weren't? should I remind you how they attacked the humans and orcs unprovoked? no warning, no negotiation, no "hey guys these forests are sacred, could you please relocate?" nah, they just went BOOM HEADSHOT!!!!
But again, that seems to be ok because the ELVES did it. If an orc has the balls do the same, SHAME ON THEM. I severely have to frown at that double-standard.
Where? the night elves lay claim to every piece of wood in kalimdor. Ashenvale? theirs, Darkshore? theirs, Azshara? theirs, Feralas? theirs. Hyjal? Not only theirs but also sacred ancient hallowed ground, the tauren would not allow it, and the ancients would smite down anyone who tried. Felwood? Yeah that wood is no longer useful. Winterspring? Technically feasable, but it would be ridiculously hard to transport the wood to durotar considering all the MANY dangers along the way (The legion forces in felwood, and the alliance forces in ashenvale)
And those are the only dense forested areas in the continent other than Un'goro which isn't feasable to set up a logging operation considering that the area is full of silithid, titan constructs, dinosaurs, giant beasts, and in close proximity to old god territory. There's a reason why even today neither the horde nor alliance has ever had a major presence in there, and the one neutral base that dared to do so met a rather brutal end.
Unless I'm forgetting another one, there is nowhere else to harvest wood in kalimdor, the elves laid claim to the only relatively safe ones, and the rest are too unfeasable to set up shop. The horde was perfectly willing to BUY the wood from the alliance, and it was the alliance (or rather, bonehead varian) who backed out of that deal, even though it could had saved many lives and prevented many hostilities, while still giving both sides something to win: Money for the alliance, and resources for the horde.
This was a case of both sides being too stubborn to compromise. The alliance was too stubborn because they refused to either sell wood to the horde, or allow them to use at least ONE zone to get their supplies. They expected the horde to simply roll over and die. And the horde was too stubborn because just as they could had purchased the wood from the alliance, they could had also purchased it from other factions, such as the Argent Crusade, the Steamwheedle Cartel, etc. They could had also set up logging operations in plenty of areas in the eastern kingdoms that are relatively safe (Such as Stranglethorn Vale, and Swamp of Sorrows) and then export the wood back to kalimdor.
But since neither side wanted to compromise, or look for another solution, we got war. Its that simple.
The orcs could have wood shiped to them from grizzly hills
And they did, didn't you see the massive goblin shredders? But take a guess? Ohh yeah, the alliance ALSO claimed those lands. Start to see a pattern? orcs need resources to live, and no matter what land they go to, the alliance ALSO goes there, and ALSO lays claim to it, and ALSO prevents the horde from harvesting the resources there. Its kinda hard to export large quantities of wood out of Grizzly Hills when they also have to battle the westfall brigade, the scourge, the wolfcult, the old god tainted furbolgs, and god knows what else.
This is a prevalescent problem, the alliance doesn't seem to be going an economic crisis, all their lands are fertile, all their lands have plenty of resources, all their lands are bountiful. But the orcs live in a DESERT, they need to harvest their resources from somewhere else to survive, and the alliance seems to think that the only morally good thing the orcs can do is roll over and die, because it doesn't matter WHERE the orcs try to harvest resources, there the alliance is to put a stop to them. Be it in northrend, kalimdor, pandaria, or the eastern kingdoms, its irrelevant, if the horde wants something somewhere, the alliance has made it their sworn duty to prevent them from having it.
And nobody has a problem with that? how are the orcs the bad guys when they just want some freaking resources. They TRIED to trade for them, the good ol' tried method of barter and the alliance will have none of that either, so what other option do they think the orcs should try?
hillsbrad
Hillsbrad is not a heavily forested area. Its mostly meadows and hills, hence the name
HILLS
brad.
If they wanted local then there is Ferelas. I don't think that the elven setelments there are that old. Might just have been added there for the old ruins, emerald dread stuff and wild hipogryphs. And I have not heard of any isues with the new tauren campt there.
THAT'S what I'm saying, the elves left that area thousands of years ago, all you see is ruins everyone and ONE major military outpost (feathermoon), if there are any invisible villages in there, they're recent, because before the third war, the night elves were secluded in their forest on the north.
If anything they can addapt their materials used to build houses. In nagrand they build houses out of clay. That is a more logical choise to build stuff out of than wood. And coal can be mined to heat houses. Or use the ragefire chasm. Make use of the shamans to use geothermal power for heating.
Errr no.
First off, the nagrand homes are most certainly NOT made entirely of clay, look closer and you can see that they need something solid as support, or your house will fall apart at the slightest breeze. And using coal to heat your house is a colossally bad idea. One word: Fumes.
Coal produces smoke and fumes that are toxic, or at least unpleasant to smell at.
I think it was also to add sparks to create a war from nothing. Even thought it doesn't affect the night elves at all. Would be more logical if it was becouse of warsong clan moving into ashenvale.
Realy I think blizzard just wanted to put war into warcraft. And look what we got.
Well, I do think people agree that the writing was far more solid back in the strategy games. When they announced wow the first time, my literal first thought was "wait..... WTF? Horde and Alliance are enemies again? what the hell happened to the ending of warcraft 3 where they finally set aside their differences and started working together, man they better give us one hell of a good reason for why they're at each other again"
Cue wow, and the excuse was......... less than stellar. And they keep repeating the pattern of horde and alliance hating each other, take a quick break to deal with the current big bad, then resume hating each other. Its starting to look ridiculous. I mean sweet jebus, look at cata, full war in there, and yet they take a small break and work together for the zandalari crisis, and again on the molten front/hyjal, and again on 5.3 (Notice the horde gunship and alliance gunship orbiting DS and how the ground troops are made of horde and alliance races, and how in the skybreaker there are orc troops too)
But hey, as soon as those nuisances are out of the way, BACK TO GO A-KILLIN'
It starting to make "war" look more like a caricaturesque self-parody of it than actual real warfare =/ I'm hoping they finally cut it out now that the horde and alliance have officially made "peace" with one another.
Post by
Adamsm
War is honestly always going to exist in Warcraft; the game has been built around that idea since Orcs vs Humans. Yes sure there are times where the factions group up to fight together....but 98% of the time, that's because the Neutral Factions are dope slapping them into stop being idiots and focus. But as soon as the Neutrals turn away, the factions go back to fighting...because there is just way too much bad blood for them to ever properly seek peace. All of the factions, except the Gnomes, have experienced things at the hands of other races that are just too much to forget.
Heck, we see that here in our world; how long has the various hatreds and fighting been going on in the Middle East?
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.