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Post by
Monday
Ohh you got attacked in gilneas? who cares, you repelled them.
Lolwut? Since when have the Horde been repelled from Gilneas? Currently, it's under complete Forsaken control (barring the small invasion into the capital, which is still up in the air).
I think the Forsaken quest chain involves them being forced out of the country, but stealing the Alliance's momentum via kidnapping of Crowley's daughter.
IIRC, they're only forced out of part while fighting to hold the capital (otherwise the battleground wouldn't exist).
Edit: that also reminds me, to those who complain about how Orgrimmar is a raid and the Alliance is invading a capital city: Gilneas City is a battleground, which is never going away. In a few months, nobody will be in SoO anymore, whereas people will fight in Gilneas City, an Alliance capital (and my favorite, for that matter) until the game is taken offline.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Ohh you got attacked in gilneas? who cares, you repelled them.
Lolwut? Since when have the Horde been repelled from Gilneas? Currently, it's under complete Forsaken control (barring the small invasion into the capital, which is still up in the air).
I think the Forsaken quest chain involves them being forced out of the country, but stealing the Alliance's momentum via kidnapping of Crowley's daughter.
IIRC, they're only forced out of part while fighting to hold the capital (otherwise the battleground wouldn't exist).
Edit: that also reminds me, to those who complain about how Orgrimmar is a raid and the Alliance is invading a capital city: Gilneas City is a battleground, which is never going away. In a few months, nobody will be in SoO anymore, whereas people will fight in Gilneas City, an Alliance capital (and my favorite, for that matter) until the game is taken offline.
Hmm, good point. I don't think we know enough to tell if that's a gameplay = lore thing though or the battle being set before the Forsaken were forced to retreat. I'll concede to it being up in the air.
Post by
Monday
Oh, Neon pointed out that the Gilneas battleground was shifted to a random peninsula. I'd forgotten about that. However, the fact remains that it was originally in the city before being changed.
Post by
Rankkor
You make cata sound a lot worse than it actually was.
... are you screwing me?
Not in the least. It was not as bad as you make it sound. Sure, you lost a lot, I'm not denying that, but you're blatantly ignoring all that you gained, and all that you took in the process. In Cata, the alliance suffered, but they gave as good as they got. In MoP however, the horde suffered, and didn't gave as good as they got. At least not to the alliance. Not once horde victory against the alliance.
The few times we actually won something it was against our own forces. I didn't joined the horde to kill more horde, I joined the horde to kill alliance.
Cata was an expansion where alliance forces killed lots of horde (night elves eradicating the trolls in darkshore, repelling the attack on astranaar, taking out 3 horde bases (Honor Stand, Taurajo, and a good chunk of stonetalon) along with traditional military defeats on the horde.) just as horde forces killed lots of alliance.
Let me lay it out, shall I?
lets.
Ashenvale: Burned and destroyed.
Overdramatic much? The center part was burned but not by the horde, that was the cataclysm, don't mix apples and oranges, here. And the warsong lumber camp was expanded by a TINY amount (about 10% larger) that's it. I hardly call that "destroyed".
Southshore: Plaguebombed into oblivion.
Taurajo was burned into oblivion. We're even.
Gilneas city: Captured by Forsaken
Wrong. As the forsaken starting zone shows, alliance troops reclaimed the city. They then pushed heavy into silverpine, where sylvannas pushed them back. But at no point do we actually sent forsaken troops into the city. We sent troops to the peninsula and currently they're engaged in a stalemate war for control of the region.
Gilneas: Pillaged and bombed with biological weapons
Considering that the Fangs of the Father questline takes place there, as well as the silverpine storyline which follows immediately after the gilnean story also takes place there, I'm calling BS. The zone is not a biological danger.
Stormwind: Burned and heavily damaged by Deathwing
Horde didn't do that. That doesn't count as a victory for us, for that matter, we lost 3 villages in thousand needles when the cataclysm flooded it but you don't see me whining about that being an alliance victory, because it isn't. You complain about ashenvale being burned even though the horde didn't do it but you don't see me complaining about a quarter of durotar being flooded. Why? because the alliance didn't do that, it was the cataclysm. Apples to Oranges.
Stonetalon: Nuked (by you guys) and scores of innocent druids killed.
A: Rogue General who was punished for his warcrime (when was the last time an alliance general was punished for a warcrime? I'm waiting)
B: We also lost druids in there, that was a neutral academy, hosting elven and tauren druids.
So that's not a horde victory either.
Gnomeregon: recaptured and held against the gnomes.
Once again, not by US. Why do I care about the many tragedies the alliance suffers? Those are not victories for my side, that's just life being a bitch.
Andorhal: Heavily implied to be taken by the Forsaken
Not implied, that was a Horde victory through and through. However, to that I raise you your complete victory over the shatterspear. Notice a pattern? you lose something, we lose something. You lose something, We Lose something. See that pattern in MoP? NO, we just lose and lose and lose and lose, and the alliance is entirely unblemished. The only thing even remotely close to a tragedy for the alliance in MoP is Rell who may or may not have died in the jade forest (They've been too vague on that. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out magically alive and fine at a later point, he is a guy after all, its female characters that get shafted in this setting)
Then, in MoP, Theramore, the human capital of Kalimdor and one of two major Alliance outposts in Kalimdor (the other being Darnassus) is nuked into oblivion.
heh, not that I wanna go offtopic but I find it amusing that you don't consider the Exodar a major alliance outpost. =P
Face it man, you'd be royally pissed if the sides were reversed. And by that I mean if we had gotten your treatment in cata, and you had gotten ours in MoP.
You know what they say about assuming (hint: it makes an ass out of you and me).
So..... you'd be happy to lose your gunship, lose one of your favorite characters, have a scenario where you get a massive defeat, have your capital invaded, your army broken and shattered, your king battered and bloodied, and your people living only because we let them live?
Interesting.
The horde had it WAY worse in MoP than the alliance had in cata.
Blatantly false. Bias talking. Horde always have it better or worse, depending on the argument at hand and whether someone is saying the Alliance was better or worse. If I was arguing that the Alliance kicked butt in Cata, you would (most likely) be here going on about the major Horde victories. I know this from experience.
Not the same. If you were arguing that the alliance kicked butt in cata, I'd point out the horde victories too, that is correct, but if you said that the alliance had it way worse than the horde in cata, I'd be agreeing with you.
Just look at the many examples above, in cata? Alliance lost places to the cataclysm (To name a few: Park district in stormwind, that village in darkshore, a big chunk of ashenvale, etc) Horde lost places to the cataclysm (namely all our presense in the thousand needles, a large chunk of Mulgore, a larger chunk of stonetalon, a large chunk of durotar, practically all of south barrens, Kargath, etc).
Alliance suffered defeats at the hands of the horde (Andorhal, Stonard, Silverpine, Azshara) Horde suffered defeats at the hands of the alliance (Taurajo, Honor Stand, Shatterspear village, Northwatch, etc)
Horde gained new territories (That sentinel base in ashenvale, new bases in blasted lands, new bases in feralas, new bases in EK in general) Alliance gained new territories (stronghold in swamp of sorrows, new bases in wetlands, Stonetalon, Blasted Lands, etc)
Its all balanced out with a slight disadvantage for the alliance.
You look me in the eye and tell me that this particular win/loss ratio was kept for MoP. Go on man.
Ohh you got attacked in gilneas? who cares, you repelled them.
Lolwut? Since when have the Horde been repelled from Gilneas? Currently, it's under complete Forsaken control (barring the small invasion into the capital, which is still up in the air).
Small recap of the Silverpine storyline since you badly need it: You are sent to silverpine, the Forsaken Front Post is overwhelmed by a zerg-rush by the worgen, we have to carefully stroll across the entire peninsula (Which is not plagued, and is crawling with worgens galore) to pilfer the corpse of Godfrey, and then we GTFO before the worgen anihilate us. After that, the ENTIRE Silverpine zone is exclusively about driving the alliance OUT of silverpine, at no point do we push back into gilneas and reclaim it. So..... The alliance is in control of the area, with forsaken forces battling them for control of it.
So "complete forsaken control" my foot.
Compare that to MoP which was completely devoid of any semblance of balance whatsoever. There was not a single horde victory, or even a single moment that made you proud to be horde, we just lost, and lost, and lost and lost and lost without gaining anything at all.
Reminds me of Cata and Thrall-Jesus. Horde did everything right and were so wise, whereas the Alliance just warmongered.
I seem to recall Thrall going neutral for that. Just as Vol'jin went neutral to battle the zandalari. Way to go faction pride. How would you feel if your best heroes stopped representing the alliance and went neutral?........................ ok that was a bad question lol :P
Point is, Thrall was NOT representing the horde in cata, he was representing the Earthen Ring, which is a neutral organization. Same as Mary Sue Malfurion was not representing the alliance in hyjal, he was representing the Cenarion Circle.
You got attacked on ashenvale? who cares, you repelled them.
Um, they weren't repelled. There's still a large Horde outpost smackdab in the center of Ashenvale, while most of the Alliance territory inside lies burned.
Again with the "most"? dude, its a small chunk in the center that got burned and not by us. It was the cataclysm. And "large horde outpost" my rear end. Its one sentinel base that was attacked by the horde. That's it. Guess what? you got a large alliance stronghold smackdab in the middle of swamp of sorrows. See what I told you about balance and equality? Where is that in MoP?
So sorry lil bro' but I'm taking that guy's side (even if his way of exposing his points stinks)
Of course you'll take his side. It's the Horde side. Whether or not it's patently, blatantly false is irrelevant.
Please don't do that. You know I don't just take the side of whatever rabble chooses to preach for the horde (Case in point, you don't see me taking sides with 4dahorde, or other horde nutjobs who blatantly ignore the lore and only see what they want to see).
I don't do that with you, I don't automatically lump you with the nutjob rabble that does the same for the alliance, so please extend the same courtesy to me man =/
The expansion even ends with the horde only suriving because the alliance lets them live, not because we're strong or anything. That's more than a defeat, that is a humiliation. And while the alliance suffered defeats in cata, they weren't humiliated in any way.
Sounds like a good repayment of the Thrall-Messiah act of Cataclysm.
Right, because one horde protagonist going neutral and getting attention is harming the alliance SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much.
I woudln't be as upset if they had only chosen to take one alliance figure and uplift them to messiah status (Which they did, they took every single unpleasant feature of Varian, transplanted them into Jaina, and now all of the sudden Varian is avatar of the gods, praised by the celestials, supreme high king that everyone kisses the floor wherever he walks, and does nothing wrong ever.) But instead, they chose to do that, and then cause A HEAPLOAD of damage to my side in the process. its not the same.
I dont' recall Cata ending with Thrall threatening the alliance to chill out or he'd blast them out of azeroth.
Who lost more? Why, the Horde did!
Noticed what I said above? I'm not denying that the alliance lost more in cata, I'm saying that while they lost, they at least gave almost as good as they got. Unlike my side during this expansion which was a complete unilateral defeat.
Who won more, why, the Horde did!
Not true, all this time I've been saying that the alliance won more in this expansion, why are you putting words in my mouth?
Who has the best characters? The Horde of course! Two sides of a questline? Horde side is better (despite these being completely subjective).
Every time I've said this I've been very clear that it was just my own personal opinion, and that the experience IS subjective.
Post by
morginar
Who has the best characters? The Horde of course!
Mainly becouse horde has more than just three characters. Varian, Anduin and Jaina are the characters that get lore in Ally in MoP, the rest are just sidekicks that licks boots realy.
Well, horde may get retribution (or vengance?) on Jaina Proudmore of the harlot eyeshadow. Given that there has so far been no new update on the dalaran situation. And Jaina seems to take the same path as her father...
Mening we will most likley raid dalaran.
Possibly eaven kill a Windrunner, unless it's just a un-curse/redemtion encounter like Kalec in SWP.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Seriously Rank? Here's the truth why the Horde has done so poorly in MoP.
It was led by Garrosh.
That is literally all that needs to be said. For storytelling reasons, everybody in the Horde except the orcs needed to get pummeled a bit. Why? Because Garrosh was turning the Horde into Orc only. We needed to see that. If he wasn't being a complete idiot to the other races, then why would they revolt? Vol'Jin only bothered to make a move because Garrosh tried to have him killed. If Garrosh wasn't a terrible Warchief, the Horde would have no reason to go up there and kick him out.
As for Cataclysm, comparing things that were blown up is childish. Eye for an eye does not win a war. The Horde comprehensively did greater damage to Alliance forces because they destroyed far more essential areas.
As for Thrall, he was neutral in Cataclysm, but he was Horde before and is now after. As a comparison, Rhonin was neutral, because he did not take sides period (then he died, but the point stands). Malfurion was the same sort of neutral as Thrall at the time, but we have to remember who it was that had ninety percent of Cataclysm's main storyline, cinematics, and even Malfurion's mortal enemy revolving about them. Thrall was there for the Horde players, not for Alliance ones.
Post by
Rankkor
Who has the best characters? The Horde of course!
Mainly becouse horde has more than just three characters. Varian, Anduin and Jaina are the characters that get lore in Ally in MoP, the rest are just sidekicks that licks boots realy.
This is sadly true. You know, I noticed something funny when I did the visions of time quest this week. It showed a vision of the ending sequence of SoO. Namely garrosh on the ground, with Cho and Zhu chaining him, and to his left, all the horde leaders (Thrall, Vol'jin, Lor'themar, Sylvannas, Baine, and Galliwyx) and to his right all the alliance leaders (Varian, Jaina, Anduin, Gelbin, Tyrande, Greymane, and Moira)
And yet........ you'd be forgiven for thinking none of the alliance leadership was present if all you saw was the cinematics in youtube rather than do the quest. Notice how in the horde cinematic
all
the horde leaders show up, even if most just make a small cameo, at least they show up.
In the alliance cinematic, its just Varian, Jaina, and for a small second Anduin. No attention at all to the elves, draenei, worgen, dwarves, or gnomes. As far as blizzard goes, alliance is humans only. Everyone else is riff-raft.
I'm still upset that in order to make Varian more likable (an endeavor in which I may say they succeeded, I don't hate him anywhere near as much as I did in Wrath where he was a total asshole) they transplanted ALL of his nasty features into Jaina. That is SO not cool.
Well, horde may get retribution (or vengance?) on Jaina Proudmore of the harlot eyeshadow. Given that there has so far been no new update on the dalaran situation. And Jaina seems to take the same path as her father...
Meaning we will most likley raid dalaran.
If there's even a shred of justice left, this will happen.
Post by
Stabhorn
Well, horde may get retribution (or vengance?) on Jaina Proudmore of the harlot eyeshadow. Given that there has so far been no new update on the dalaran situation. And Jaina seems to take the same path as her father...
Meaning we will most likley raid dalaran.
If there's even a shred of justice left, this will happen.
I can see it now; the Siege of Dalaran. This will happen when the Alliance realize that Jaina is corrupt and leading the Kirin Tor down a path of darkness. The Alliance rebel against her, aided by the mighty Horde.
Post by
Adamsm
Raid Dalaran fine,,,but don't do the exact same thing as what is happening now.
Post by
Stabhorn
I think if we did raid Dalaran, it would be far to similar to SoO.
Post by
morginar
Depends on how you do it, nothing is impossible.
Post by
Rankkor
Raid Dalaran fine,,,but don't do the exact same thing as what is happening now.
many feared the siege of orgrimmar would be too similar to the battle for undercity. It clearly wasn't. Come on man, give blizz some credit, they screw up a lot but they also do it right just as often. Also bear in mind that if the next expac is against the legion, then the possibility of some casters turning traitors is entirely possible, given how arcane and fel magic corrupt the user (The latter is just faster than the former but both corrupt). If Jaina's hatred is big enough, she could see allying with the legion as a "end justifying the means" scenario and if her recent Thunder King powers make her sufficiently cocky to think she can then screw over the legion, then I can definitely see her throwing her lot with the legion just to kill horde. Forcing both sides to take her out.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Raid Dalaran fine,,,but don't do the exact same thing as what is happening now.
many feared the siege of orgrimmar would be too similar to the battle for undercity. It clearly wasn't. Come on man, give blizz some credit, they screw up a lot but they also do it right just as often. Also bear in mind that if the next expac is against the legion, then the possibility of some casters turning traitors is entirely possible, given how arcane and fel magic corrupt the user (The latter is just faster than the former but both corrupt). If Jaina's hatred is big enough, she could see allying with the legion as a "end justifying the means" scenario and if her recent Thunder King powers make her sufficiently cocky to think she can then screw over the legion, then I can definitely see her throwing her lot with the legion just to kill horde. Forcing both sides to take her out.
That would be just awful storytelling, Blizz repeating themselves for a third time. If Jaina went over to the Legion then we may as well just start calling her Kael'Thas with a sex change.
Post by
Rankkor
Raid Dalaran fine,,,but don't do the exact same thing as what is happening now.
many feared the siege of orgrimmar would be too similar to the battle for undercity. It clearly wasn't. Come on man, give blizz some credit, they screw up a lot but they also do it right just as often. Also bear in mind that if the next expac is against the legion, then the possibility of some casters turning traitors is entirely possible, given how arcane and fel magic corrupt the user (The latter is just faster than the former but both corrupt). If Jaina's hatred is big enough, she could see allying with the legion as a "end justifying the means" scenario and if her recent Thunder King powers make her sufficiently cocky to think she can then screw over the legion, then I can definitely see her throwing her lot with the legion just to kill horde. Forcing both sides to take her out.
That would be just awful storytelling, Blizz repeating themselves for a third time. If Jaina went over to the Legion then we may as well just start calling her Kael'Thas with a sex change.
That was just an example. All I'm saying is that we have a woman with a HUGE boulder on her shoulder, a hatred that goes above and beyond reason, and the massive powers of a demigod to use as she sees fit. That right there my friend is a dangerous and unstable combination.
Also, I don't remember Kael'thas plotting to overthrow the legion, he honestly thought they would save his people.
Post by
oneforthemoney
It was more a Dalaran mage going over to the legion that had no reason to do so, merrily skipping all the way.
But good point. Though honestly? I would really like to see something of a redemption story with Jaina in some way. The woman's had personal ties to nearly every character who went off the deep end and paid for it. Arthas, Kael'Thas, Aegwyn. If she of all people can't redeem herself but instead follows down that road like all those others, we may as well just throw all of her story before Mists out the window.
Post by
Rankkor
It was more a Dalaran mage going over to the legion that had no reason to do so, merrily skipping all the way.
But good point. Though honestly? I would really like to see something of a redemption story with Jaina in some way. The woman's had personal ties to nearly every character who went off the deep end and paid for it. Arthas, Kael'Thas, Aegwyn. If she of all people can't redeem herself but instead follows down that road like all those others, we may as well just throw all of her story before Mists out the window.
PFfft, if garrosh couldn't be redeemed, then neither can she.
I know he's miles worse, but the way blizz works, they only redeem someone by transfering their negative qualities to someone else. and she already took all the emotional baggage of Varian. Look at her, she's acting EXACTLY like varian did in Wrath.
Post by
oneforthemoney
It was more a Dalaran mage going over to the legion that had no reason to do so, merrily skipping all the way.
But good point. Though honestly? I would really like to see something of a redemption story with Jaina in some way. The woman's had personal ties to nearly every character who went off the deep end and paid for it. Arthas, Kael'Thas, Aegwyn. If she of all people can't redeem herself but instead follows down that road like all those others, we may as well just throw all of her story before Mists out the window.
PFfft, if garrosh couldn't be redeemed, then neither can she.
I know he's miles worse, but the way blizz works, they only redeem someone by transfering their negative qualities to someone else. and she already took all the emotional baggage of Varian. Look at her, she's acting EXACTLY like varian did in Wrath.
This is true. But looking at it another way, if she does go crazy and homicidal, it will mean that every important female in WoW has either become evil, or given the personality of wet toast. At least with Garrosh there was loads of build up to go along with floppy character assassination.
Post by
Rankkor
It was more a Dalaran mage going over to the legion that had no reason to do so, merrily skipping all the way.
But good point. Though honestly? I would really like to see something of a redemption story with Jaina in some way. The woman's had personal ties to nearly every character who went off the deep end and paid for it. Arthas, Kael'Thas, Aegwyn. If she of all people can't redeem herself but instead follows down that road like all those others, we may as well just throw all of her story before Mists out the window.
PFfft, if garrosh couldn't be redeemed, then neither can she.
I know he's miles worse, but the way blizz works, they only redeem someone by transfering their negative qualities to someone else. and she already took all the emotional baggage of Varian. Look at her, she's acting EXACTLY like varian did in Wrath.
This is true. But looking at it another way, if she does go crazy and homicidal, it will mean that every important female in WoW has either become evil, or given the personality of wet toast.
Not exactly a news flash. Some of my friends refer to MoP as "The Great Estrogen Purge of Azeroth" :P for all the character derailment inflicted onto women.
Jaina turned from a pacifist and idealist smart diplomat, into WOTLK!Varian with a Vagina.
Zaela turned from a strong, and militant warlord with an idealistic mindset and a desire to end tyranny and oppression, as well as shake off the dark roots of her people's past, to the flunky of another dictator just as bad as the one she helped depose.
Tyrande has come full circle, from the badass she was in War3, to a completely stupid, leeroy Jenkins that falls for the most obvious traps, and does nothing of use, other than be useless. She doesn't even sound like a night elf anymore.
Suna Silentstrike is introduced just long enough to let us know how much she loves her husband, and then he gets iced, and she goes WAAAAAAAAAAY off the deep end of crazy.
Taoshi almost never gets to do anything awesome on her how, she's mostly Taran Zhu's Hypercompetent Sidekick. It would had been (IMO of course) much better if Taran had died off his wounds on the battle with Shen Bu, and it was Taoshi who confronted Garrosh on the 5.4 trailer, as well as her coming to deliver justice at the ending cinematic. But noooooooooooooo SHE'S A GURL, SHE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
/frowns.
and the list just goes on and on.
So again, this is not old news, we are talking about blizzard here.
Post by
Stabhorn
Well Sun realli didn't go insane, since she was already dead once we confront her in the Vale of Eternal Sorrows.
On another note; who thinks Zaela survived SoO?
Post by
Monday
Rank, if I make another post I'm going to actually get angry, so let's agree to disagree, yes?
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