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Post by
Skreeran
How about time? It would take weeks to build a town the size and quality of Vengeance Landing, even without fighting a battle meanwhile. It's difficult for me to believe that the sea battle started weeks ago, and in that time, while being boarded and cannoned by the Alliance, the Forsaken managed to clear out the perimeter of their town, have the various materials shipped in from the Eastern Kingdoms, and then built it from scratch?
It seems far more plausible to say that the Forsaken had already arrived, cleared the land, built the town, and then the Alliance showed up, cobbled together a piecemeal fort while fighting a battle, and has been fighting this battle for a few days, maybe a week tops. That's why we still have constant hand-to-hand fighting on ships.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
It seems far more plausible to say that the Forsaken had already arrived, cleared the land, built the town, and then the Alliance showed up, cobbled together a piecemeal fort while fighting a battle, and has been fighting this battle for a few days, maybe a week tops. That's why we still have constant hand-to-hand fighting on ships.
All I said was that it was a possibility. Not that it was more plausible.Perhaps.
However, when nothing about it is specified by the npcs, I prefer to go by what is the most probable.
Post by
Adamsm
I'm not sure if it was the RP books, or Rise of the Lich King, but one of them had a comment about Sylvanas vanishing for weeks at a time, supposedly heading north; as one of those, the RP books occur before the official start of Vanilla, and the other happens just before Wrath, the Forsaken towns could have gone up at any point between those two time periods.
As for the Alliance; the base in the Fjord was the first location on Northrend, built on the remains of one of the original northern expeditions, which, again, according to some of the RP books, occurred during the 4 year gap. So, the Forsaken might have had their Landing up first, but the Alliance had the area of Valgarde there first.
Post by
Skreeran
I'm not sure if it was the RP books, or Rise of the Lich King, but one of them had a comment about Sylvanas vanishing for weeks at a time, supposedly heading north; as one of those, the RP books occur before the official start of Vanilla, and the other happens just before Wrath, the Forsaken towns could have gone up at any point between those two time periods.
As for the Alliance; the base in the Fjord was the first location on Northrend, built on the remains of one of the original northern expeditions, which, again, according to some of the RP books, occurred during the 4 year gap. So, the Forsaken might have had their Landing up first, but the Alliance had the area of Valgarde there first.That's probably true.
However, I don't think that that little scrap-fort that they have just south of Vengeance Landing was built before Vengeance Landing.
Post by
Adamsm
Right, the scrap fort probably went up as soon as they found out the Forsaken had created a base there.
Post by
306612
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Post by
229054
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Post by
Adamsm
Also, I'd like to say that the Gnome plan was pure genius
Isn't that the... tenth framing quest we've seen?
I think he meant that it sent the magnataurs after the Horde and took focus off themselves.
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229054
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Post by
451455
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229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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229054
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451455
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Post by
Adamsm
Jumped the Shark.
Post by
Rankkor
I just showed you proof
, the Forsaken had to have sailed a great distance to meet up with the North Fleet.
where? all you did was talk, but not link evidence to what you talk about.
Ok... So if treating people who are on the same side as you is nothing special, why are you acting like it is?
because you pointed out that he only treats people with respect if they are on his side, conviniently forgetting that so does everyone else in the game save for a few selected people (like tirion, jaina, Rhonin or Thrall)
Wtf? Are you saying Anselm showed respect and honor to the Alliance?
nope, what I meant with that quote is to the point I ilustrated above, I said "why do you call him an asshat? he shows respect to his own troops and doesn't treats his men like a jerk would"
your anwser? "he only does that because they are on his side, he doesn't extends the same courtesy to his enemies"
My repply "name me a single alliance or horde character that does"
seriously man, alliance and horde HATE each other, they don't play nice with the oposite faction, why do you call Anselm an asshat just cuz he's mean to the ENEMY?
Loyal to his people, yes (He stuck with an evil fraction over an evil fraction. Woop-de-do).
He isn't loyal to the Horde
as a whole in any specific way.
again with the PERSONAL character interpretation? if there isn't a single quest that proves he is disloyal to the horde, then please do not say that he isn't loyal, all military leaders of the forsaken+tauren+trolls+blood elves+orcs are loyal to the horde, unless specifically stated by a quest that they have an inner agenda (like neeru fireblade who clearly isn't loyal to the horde and it's actually a spy of the shadow council, or that dude in hammerfall wich is an agent of the twillight hammer)
but unless a quest or quote directly says otherwise, ALL alliance and horde NPC's are loyal to their respective factions.
don't add speculation wich was created from a rather PERSONAL point of view plx.
I disdain him because he wants to eliminate the Alliance like any Forsaken. Dude, put the peices together here.
He ambushed an Alliance fleet
, he says he'll crush the Alliance where ever he finds them, and you said yourself how loyal he is to Sylvanas. Surely he agrees with her goals to destroy humanity.
again with this? what part of PROVE IT isn't in clear english here?
Ok, rankkorr,
you seriously need to get this through your head
.
Anselm his not a man of honor. He is not a war hero. He is not a widely known and respected commander
. He is not famous for countless victorys against enemys forces.
first off, drop the hostile tone, I'm not using it on you, it's not too much to ask that you don't use it on me, let's keep this civil shall we?
secondly, a man willing to stand by his convictions is a man of honor, also anselm IS a known and respected comander, I should remind you that he is a HIGH EXECUTOR, the forsaken's equivalent of Grand Marshal.
not many reach that position unless they have proven themselves in the battlefield.
We never saw what exactly did Bolvar did to earn his rank, nor did we saw what exactly did how he was promoted, yet we know he's a war hero and a respected comander due to his postion in the military ranks, Cuz..... you know they don't put average joes there.....
only people who have proven themselves get to the top.
First you go around saying that its unknown what happend, and then you start making up trash like this that the Alliance was invading the Forsaken even though they were not anywhere near them.
Stick to your (false) story.
again, drop the hostile tone, I'm keeping my cool on this discussion, so please do the same frankie.
and second, I am not stating that the alliance was invading the forsakens, as I've said multiple times, there is no proof as to who started what. That comment was aimed at delt, who was listing "the forsakens and their (posible) ambush at the alliance fleet"
I simply asked him to not put it that way ,as it's not clear who ambushed who, and to Illustrate that point I said "why don't you put it the other way arround? alliance atacking forsakens, since it's their fleet on the forsaken's zone"
I wasn't implying anything by that line, simply saying that neither version can be stated as "canon" simply due to lack of evidence.
It just seems so set up that the Forsaken started it
TO ME
. The North Fleet marines are clearly in no proper condition to fight. The Forsaken could not have run into the fleet easily if the ruins are so far away. And quite frankly, I can't see the marines being so persistent without a cause of vengeance
see? personal opinion, again, all of this is from YOUR PERSPECTIVE, but when asked to show proof of that all you say is "I already did".
bro' let me define proof.
A: link a quest that actually directly bluntly states WHO started the conflict.
should no quest of that nature exist, then B: link a quote from an NPC (NPC's tend to chatter a lot even out of quests, plus they have their gossip texts) that says WHO started the conflict.
should no quotes exist, then C: link any book, or comic, or CANON (as in non-fan-fic) source of lore that states WHO started the conflict.
should neither of the above exist, then the matter at hand cannot be proven, and your PERSONAL interpretation of it doesn't count as proof (just as my personal interpretation doesn't count either, in your POV the forsaken's started it, on my POV the north fleet started it, and that's that)
In the scenario of him starting the battle just because the North Fleet is Alliance,
murderer sounds appropriate
TO ME
.
see? again with the PERSONAL point of view.
if (and only if) the forsakens atacked the north fleet, then that would make Anselm a ruthless merciless man, who ordered an atack and ended up a lot of lives.
however, since these are MILITARY lives, it still doesn't count as murder, that would be the case had he ordered the deaths of civilians or non-combatants, or of troops who have waved the peace flag, or of troops who lay down their weapons and surrendered.
however, that scenario is not clear, it's not "canon" who started what, and as such, when listing reasons to dislike Anselm you cannot use this against him.
if the alliance was the one who atacked the forsakens (wich also cannot be proven) then Anselm was just a general protecting his people, and his men. Nothing more.
in this second scenario, if the north fleet had civilians on it, or if the troops waved the peace flag, or if the troops lay down their weapons and surrendered, and he still killed them, then yhea, he's still a murderer and an asshat.
but (and this is the puch line) in neither scenario (Alliance atacking forsakens, or Forsakens atacking alliance) did the north fleet had any civilian personell (all their troops are sailors and marines) they never waved a peace flag, nor did they attempted to surrender, they fought, and as such killing them does NOT counts as murder.
and that part my friend, is not speculation, they really didn't surrendered, and as such, Killing a combatant in a field of battle is not murder, it's WAR (and if you bring again the whole "but alliance and horde weren't at war by then" then I'll just bring up the fact that they were in a cold-war state, and that the gnomes did exterminated a bunch of orcs tauren and taunka WHO DEFINITLY DID NOTHING TO THEM in borean tundra)
Post by
Monday
Although Rankkorr, I must admit you do pose your story as the truth and your views as fact, just like he did. (I'm not trying to insult you or take Darkton's side, just pointing out you are also being hostile and posing your views as fact).
Oh and for honor to the Enemy, remember Bolvar Fordragon?
Post by
Rankkor
Although Rankkorr,
I must admit you do pose your story as the truth and your views as fact, just like he did
. (I'm not trying to insult you or take Darkton's side, just pointing out you are also being hostile and posing your views as fact).
:P the main diference being that I'm willing to openly admit that what I say cannot be proven, and as such I don't hold it as canon.
I think the forsaken were atacked by the alliance, but since that cannot be proven, that's not a point I'll use against the alliance in a debate.
(for example if there's a debate of someone asking "yo, name me a time the alliance has atacked the horde unprovoked" you will definitly NOT see me saying "well there was this time where their fleet ambushed us". I won't say that because while I think it's true, I cannot prove it's true, thus it's not valid for a discussion)
Oh and for honor to the Enemy, remember Bolvar Fordragon?
and Tolerance isn't the same as honor, what I meant was that other than jaina, thrall, tirion, and Rhonin, few people treat "nice" the members of the oposite faction.
Bolvar was willing to work with them, but he clearly wasn't happy about it (as shown by his tone to saurfang on the wrathgate) Of course I'm not downplaying the heroicness of bolvar, I'm simply stating that he was a good man to his own people, and a pompous jerk to the horde (in the same way that almost 99% of the military leaders of BOTH factions, are nice to their own men, and jerks to the enemy, and there's even people in both factions that are jerks to his own men, and to the enemy as well)
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