This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
General Lore Discussions
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Rankkor
but the fact that the gnomes unleashed a tribe of magnataurs on the horde
Now that's something I didn't know. Remember the name of the quest, if it was a quest?
yhea, let me link it up, I'll edit this post when I find it, it's a quest in the gnomish airfield on borean tundra.
Edit: here it is:
It Was The Orcs, Honest!
in a nutshell, gnomes build an airfield, but their machines upset the local snobolds and magnataurs, and rather than deal with their own problems or ask their allies to help them, they take the cheap route, and instead ask you to desacrate the corpses of a horde caravan that was ambushed by ghosts, take their clothes, put them on, put a mask on, kill the leader of the magnataur, plant a horde banner on his corpse, and haul outta there.
unlike the horde who didn't took such a foulplaying cowardly tactic (
Gammothra the Tormentor
)
this makes the magnataur stop atacking the gnomes, and instead focus on the horde, and this causes a crap-load of casualties on the horde base of Bor'gorok outpost wich was much less prepared to deal with such an atack, as a result a lot of taunka pilgrims, horde combatants and peons (who are civilians) die, and one of the wisest shamans of the tauren tribes also gets killed by the enraged magnataur tribes....
Farseer Grimwalker's Spirit
as this quest describes
The Sky Will Know
he and his escort were obserbing the local flora and fauna when suddenly the magnataur (provoked by the gnomish scam) atacked them killed the whole group, and killed the shaman too.
Post by
Adamsm
the fact that the horde did not executed the alliance desertors in warsong hold speaks much of their honor, but the fact that the gnomes unleashed a tribe of magnataurs on the horde, wich did caused the death of many combatants and civilians (including taunka pilgrims) IS murder.Yes, because attempting to fight against the magnataurs, the Horde, the crazed hunters, and the robots of the oil fields is a sound decision. It's part of war, and it happens; the enemy of my enemy and all that.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
the fact that the horde did not executed the alliance desertors in warsong hold speaks much of their honor, but the fact that the gnomes unleashed a tribe of magnataurs on the horde, wich did caused the death of many combatants and civilians (including taunka pilgrims) IS murder.Yes, because attempting to fight against the magnataurs, the Horde, the crazed hunters, and the robots of the oil fields is a sound decision. It's part of war, and it happens; the enemy of my enemy and all that.
why not? the horde did it, and we're not in ruin, face it bro' they have AIRPLANES, was it so hard to send a plane to valiance keep and ask for reinforcements?
just so we're clear, the horde was dealing with the exact same threats, poachers+magnataurs+crazed robots+anub'ar troops+scourge+KEL'TUZAD LEADING AN ARMY AGAINST OUR BASE!.
and we did just fine without resorting to dirty-fight to win the battle.
there's a lesson there that the alliance should learn: NEVER forsake honor, EVER.
The hunters attacked the airfield? o.o
no they did not :P adamsm is just trying to justify the cowardly tactic used by the gnomes, the poachers weren't atacking the airfield, in fact they are quite far from it, and their main goal was to hunt animals (and any adventurer who gets close to them) but they weren't an organized militia aimed at hunting alliance or horde troops or bases.
they each hunted alone, thus posed no threat against an organized armed squad of soldiers.
Post by
Monday
why not? the horde did it, and we're not in ruin, face it bro' they have AIRPLANES, was it so hard to send a plane to valiance keep and ask for reinforcements?
Yes. If you didn't notice, Valiance Keep is under constant attack by Scourge, stopping anyone from getting through.
just so we're clear, the horde was dealing with the exact same threats, poachers+magnataurs+crazed robots+anub'ar troops+scourge+KEL'TUZAD LEADING AN ARMY AGAINST OUR BASE!.
Except that was a huge fortress with Trolls, Tauren and Orcs, while the Alliance base was an Airfield populated by SMALL gnomes.
And the poachers would kill anyone, including gnomes, making them an annoyance but possibly weakening them overall.
Oh and they dealt with the Mechagnomes?
Post by
Adamsm
the fact that the horde did not executed the alliance desertors in warsong hold speaks much of their honor, but the fact that the gnomes unleashed a tribe of magnataurs on the horde, wich did caused the death of many combatants and civilians (including taunka pilgrims) IS murder.Yes, because attempting to fight against the magnataurs, the Horde, the crazed hunters, and the robots of the oil fields is a sound decision. It's part of war, and it happens; the enemy of my enemy and all that.
why not? the horde did it, and we're not in ruin, face it bro' they have AIRPLANES, was it so hard to send a plane to valiance keep and ask for reinforcements?
just so we're clear, the horde was dealing with the exact same threats, poachers+magnataurs+crazed robots+anub'ar troops+scourge+KEL'TUZAD LEADING AN ARMY AGAINST OUR BASE!.
and we did just fine without resorting to dirty-fight to win the battle.
there's a lesson there that the alliance should learn: NEVER forsake honor, EVER.
Sure, you can send off reinforcements... except those reinforcements are dealing with the Scourge forces attacking the Keep, as well as a San'layn being in a position of power and keeping the forces from being used as well as they should, I mean, a Gnome does send us off to find out what was going on in the Airstrip.
The hunters attacked the airfield? o.o
no they did not :P adamsm is just trying to justify the cowardly tactic used by the gnomes, the poachers weren't atacking the airfield, in fact they are quite far from it, and their main goal was to hunt animals (and any adventurer who gets close to them) but they weren't an organized militia aimed at hunting alliance or horde troops or bases.
they each hunted alone, thus posed no threat against an organized armed squad of soldiers.The large groups surrounding the 'leader' of the Mammoth Hunter kinda of dispells that idea.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Yes. If you didn't notice, Valiance Keep is under constant attack by Scourge, stopping anyone from getting through. while Warsong hold is a huge fortress with Trolls, Tauren and Orcs
right, because Warsong Hold was just fine...... ohh wait...... while the scourge forces only atack valiance keep from the front (the side-entrance is empty) Warsong has an
anub'ar invation on the quarry that surrounds the entire hold......
and
a full army led by kel'tuzad from behind in the fields of nasan
plus ya know, the whole
sea-access cut off by kvaldir
, and of course we can't forget about the
warsong farm outpost
being over-ran by a rampaging army of scourge and cult of the damned who manage to turn the swine into unliving weapons, and are led by a
high necromancer oficer of the scourge
a full nest of magnataurs
right on our doorstep
, and we can't forget the other more mundane dangers of the tundra, like the naga, the poachers, the mechagnomes, the scourge city of en'kilah. and yet, we never resorted to dirty fighting to survive, nor did we neglected our other bases who needed help
yhea, we're having a vacation on the beach........
stop making excuses.
Except that was a huge fortress with Trolls, Tauren and Orcs, while the Alliance base was an Airfield populated by SMALL gnomes.
wait a sec, u're comparing fizzlecrank airfield with warsong hold? that's a bit unfair, either compare fizzlecrank airfield (a minor outpost) with bor'gorok outpost (a minor outpost) or compare Valiance Keep( major base) with Warsong Hold (major base).
Oh and they dealt with the Mechagnomes?
so did the horde, Taunka'le Village was being beset on both sides by a HUGE scourge city of en'kilah+the necropolis of naxxanar, an army of mechagnomes, undead magnataurs and they were COMPLETELY cut off from horde reinforcements.
did they resorted to dishonorable tactics? no.
Sure, you can send off reinforcements... except those reinforcements are dealing with the Scourge forces attacking the Keep
the horde base of warsong hold was being assaulted by even larger forces (valiance keep had only the anub'ar atacking on the front, and that farm they established being taken by a bunch of low-ranked scourge wich they ended up defeating. so no, not sending reinforcements isn't justified for them.
and even when the horde was facing a larger enemy (kel'tuzad+HUGE army on nasan, scourge abominations+high ranking necromancer of the scourge on the farmlands, Kvaldir on the beach, Magnataurs on the south, Anub'ar army on the front, back and sideways of the hold rather than just the front as in the alliance case, plus the other dangers of the tundra), they still didn't resorted to a dishonorable tactic, and in fact had time to be diplomatic by turning the alliance desertors rather than simply taking the cheap route wich is executing them.
and you're all ignoring the fact that while the gnomes in their small base wich was cut-off from reinforcements took that coward solution, the small orc outpost of bor'gorok when faced with the magnataurs didn't lowered to the gnomes' level, and instead fought the magnataurs, while being also cut-off from the rest of the horde, and having less resources (they didn't had a full airfield stacked high of airplanes+bombers+siege machines, and enough explosives to raze half of the area)
Post by
Rankkor
What the gnomes did was... well terrible but in the same lines as the (possible) attack the Forsaken unleashed upon the North Fleet
exept that while the gnomish part is confirmed, the forsaken part isn't.
we DO NOT know what happened, all we know are the hard facts.
A: alliance fleet in the forsaken base.
B: Crew of some of the downed ships made a camp near the forsaken base.
C: Forsaken troops fought against alliance sailors.
D. Forsaken won.
and that's it, you cannot posibly compare one with the other, specially when it's unknown what the heck was the alliance fleet doing there in the first place, all you can do about that is speculate, and speculation is invalid on a debate, present hard facts, or restrain from mentioning the unconfirmed issue.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
In Classic WoW you had the bulk of Alliance and Horde fighting together against Ahn'Qiraj. But there were still rag tag bands fighting each other for that exclusive mineral resource of the desert. You also had the small conflicts of Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch and so on.
agreed, on vainilla the horde and the alliance were more in a "Cold-war" state, in wich if they randomly met somewhere they would fight, but if the need arises, they join forces to fight the common enemy.
In BC you had the fighting over the surroundings of the Hellfire Citadel, the Ghost Towers of Auchindoun, Halaa, the Eye of the Storm and perhaps something in Shadowmoon as I've never managed to complete the Outland Loremaster before I had to stop playing.
slightly wrong, on BC the horde and the alliance still cooperated with each other, while still retaining the cold-war state. In BC the political situation was "if we don't meet, we don't kill each other, if we meet, we kill each other, however, if we meet, and there's demons nearby, we join forces, kill the demons and THEN we kill each other"
this is shown in places like the stair of destiny, also on shadowmoon they don't fight each other, too busy dealing with the legion and the Illidari.
In Northrend, things get toned down a bit for sometime. But you still have the gnomes not caring for Bor'gorok, the possible Forsaken attack on the North Fleet and perhaps something else that I don't remember now
again, stop mentioning the forsakens "atacking" the north fleet, it's not confirmed who is the antagonizer on that battle, at best you can describe it as the forsaken vs alliance confrontation, but you cannot label it as forsakens atacking alliance, because is not clear who started it, it's only clear that forsakens have hostile troops in their zone, and they are fighting back.
But then things get 10 times worse then before after the Wrathgate happens: you have the conflicts in Grizzly Hills, which carry over to Storm Peaks (and the Horde trying to kidnap Brann) and finally to Icecrown (Broken Front, Gunship Battle and the like).
true enough exept for 1 part, "the horde" wasn't trying to kidnap brann, this was the plan of a single horde sargent, and this plan gets scraped in later quests, where other horde officers say that
this is not the way of the horde
, nor would it do any good, as such this small officer tries and fails to capture brann, and later the horde actually seeks to
cooperate with brann.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I did :P I'm Loremaster after all /flex..........
and about the forsaken, even with the word "posible" you are still taking it as a factor, even an unconfirmed factor, why don't you post it the other way arround? alliance atacking forsakens? after all it is alliance troops on what is basically a forsaken section of the land.
who's invading who?
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
When the hell did this start? Was it at the sea, before Vengeance's Landing was even founded? Perhaps it was the Forsaken coming that triggered the whole mess.
it coudn't had started on the sea, because if you look at the forsaken base, it's a full established base, with complete buildings and perimeter and all of that.
While the alliance base is a makeshift camp made of tents and stakes of wood.
it's clear who got there first, Forsaken got there and built their base first, and their fight with the north fleet was much much later, as the north fleet's base seems more recent (not to mention that it would had been imposible to build structures of the size seen on vengeance landing if they were under atack at that time)
Actually, I think the correct way of listing it would be as a conflict without stating who might have started it.
yup, a good way of naming it would be simply the "forsaken vs human battle", or if you prefer "the human vs forsaken battle", both work, because neither implies who started the battle.
Anyways, we simply can't speculate enough about the whole thing.
^ this.
there is simply no info whatsoever about that conflict, only that they fought, and the forsaken won, but that's about it, who atacked first is never ever mentioned in any way shape or form.
that's like trying to figure out who won in the battle for Strand of the Ancients........ wich is left ambiguous on purpose and left for the players to interpret.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
it coudn't had started on the sea, because if you look at the forsaken base, it's a full established base, with complete buildings and perimeter and all of that.
While the alliance base is a makeshift camp made of tents and stakes of wood.
Why not? The Derelict Strand is simply very derelict. If you take a look on its wall, its clear that its improvised, the survivors of the North Fleet most likely didn't have the resources to stabilish a proper base.
Meanwhile the victorious Forsaken continued their plan, went to the fjord's coast and stabilished a based while trying to deal with the sailors.
It
is
a possible scenario =p.It seems pretty clear to me that Vengeance Landing was built before the conflict began and the Alliance base was built after.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
It seems pretty clear to me that Vengeance Landing was built before the conflict began and the Alliance base was built after.
I also feel inclined to believe that the North Fleet was attacked by the Forsaken, still I recognize that its not necessarily true. Why do you believe that Vengeance Landing was built before the initial sea battle between the Windrunner and the Stormwind Fleets?
because of the extreme proximity of the enemy forces.
It's just not posible to build structures of the size the forsaken have built while at the same time having such a close proximity to the enemy.
its not like for example Valiance keep and Warsong hold, these 2 structures are quite apart from each other, so both factions could had built them without obstructions from the other.
but if the alliance had gotten to vengeance landing first, THEIR buildings would had been more complex, more abundant, but no, it's the exact oposite, the forsaken have a large base, with well built structures, while the alliance has a makeshift camp made up of tents and an improvised barricade built from what can only be described as wrekage........
as I've said multiple times it's IMPOSIBLE to know who atacked who, but based on the complexity of the structures, it's an easy guess who started building first.
also I feel inclined to resalt this segment
I also feel inclined to believe that the North Fleet was attacked by the Forsaken, still I recognize that its not necessarily true.
this is what you believe, however, what I believe is that the alliance was the one who atacked the forsakens.
however, neither you, nor me can prove either case, all we can do is speculate, and point out "posible" reasons as to who could had atacked who.
since nobody can really prove who started the battle, then this point cannot be used in a debate against someone, in this case Anselm, who was acused by darkton of being evil just because he won the battle.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.