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Little question on hit and expertise please help.
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Post by
174083
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
If you're Alliance, odds are any Hit over 7% is wasted. If not, any Expertise over 6.5% is worth an identical amount to Hit, so if you subtract 6.5% from your expertise and then add the 2 together, whichever has the highest number is the best (Although it would be more proper to consider 1 Expertise slightly higher than 1 Hit even after 6.5 % because of Parry-haste).
I would say 7.7 / 8.75 is your best bet, unless you're Alliance, then I'd go with 6 / 10.
Post by
MegaVolt
Heckler is a little off here. You are talking about tanking, right?
For tanking the best thing to shoot for is 15% expertise and hit doesn't matter at all.
Hit and expertise will both increase your threat generation at the same rate. If all you are interested is threat then you just take the higher combined number. However, expertise will greatly reduce the incoming damage since parry hasted attacks from the boss won't happen. That's why expertise is
a lot
more important for tanks then hit. Hit only gives you threat (which shouldn't really be much of an issue anyway), expertise gives you damage reduction and threat.
Go with 6% hit and 10% expertise. Try to get more expertise as long as it's not at the expensive of other important stats (like stamina or agility). Just ignore hit, it doesn't matter.
Post by
Aadramelekh
I also suggest you stick with the higher value for expertise. But there are some considerations to be made:
As
MegaVolt
also said, expertise reduces the number of times you get parried, thus reducing incoming damage and the risk of instagib from fast spike damage.
But on the matter of "hit doesn't matter at all", I disagree.
Hit is also very important
. Not only for landing attacks in itself, but also for successfully using
Growl
and
Faerie Fire
. Since these two are spells, their miss chance is (don't know precisely, but somewhere around) 17%. And they are very important abilities - I won't get into detail, you should know why being able to land a Growl at the right time is of utmost importance and why Faerie Fire is very useful in the TPS rotation of a tank (it does about 3.5K threat, free to use every 6 seconds between Mauls, Mangles and Swipes while maintaining 5 stacks of Lacerate).
Bottom line is I suggest keeping at least 10% expertise and aiming for 8% (or even higher if you have hit loaded gear at your disposal) hit.
Post by
MegaVolt
Just to avoid any misunderstandings: When saying "ignore hit" I mean that you should never gem/enchant for it. Yes, hit is not completely irrelevant. But your gear will naturally have hit on it anyway. What I meant is: Take the hit that comes with your gear anyway and don't worry about it. But don't try to go for more, it's usually not worth it. For a tank hit is not one of the stats you want to actively pursue (those would be stamina, agility and expertise for Druids).
Oh and @Aadram:
I just happened to click your armory link in your signature. For your tanking spec you might want to think about moving points out of Improved Mangle (it will only screw up your rotation anyway since it won't fit with FF anymore) into Infected Wounds (attack speed reduction = mitigation).
Moving points from Feral Aggression (the effect is so minor, it really doesn't matter and isn't worth 5 points) into Master Shapeshifter (4% more threat is quite nice to have) is imho also worth it ;)
Post by
Aadramelekh
Oh and @Aadram:
I just happened to click your armory link in your signature. For your tanking spec you might want to think about moving points out of Improved Mangle (it will only screw up your rotation anyway since it won't fit with FF anymore) into Infected Wounds (attack speed reduction = mitigation).
Moving points from Feral Aggression (the effect is so minor, it really doesn't matter and isn't worth 5 points) into Master Shapeshifter (4% more threat is quite nice to have) is imho also worth it ;)
Oh, dear, thank you very much for your educated opinion, I am so glad you decided to help me out on this one etc etc etc. I assure you I use that spec for a certain reason. I use it for maximum damage reduction when tanking in 10 man raids (in 25 man I am raiding as Cat) because...
FIRST: I have a DK that provides improved Frost Fever for -20% attack speed, so I don't need Infected Wounds.
SECOND: I don't have a Retribution Paladin to provide Vindication nor a Warrior using Improved Demo Shout. So I took Imp Demo Roar exactly for maximizing my AP reduction power. The effect is not at all minor (it further reduces incoming physical damage by about 8-10%).
THIRD: I tank some Ulduar 10 Hard Modes (especially General Vezax and Algalon) & ToC 10 Heroic (the bosses there hit like damn hordes of German Tiger Tanks in my furry face).
So you see, some people actually have calculated specs tailored for their personal raiding groups (and I have been raiding with this 10 man group for about 5 months now regularly) and don't really have use for 'all purpose all around' builds.
Post by
174083
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
368348
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Cross-Thread quoting FTW (
source
):
The sad truth is that Blizzard has built the talent trees in such a way that there usually is only one viable spec and all others suck in comparison. At most you got a few talent points that are totally unimportant (filler points or left overs) that you can freely distribute. Those are mentioned in the sticky.
It would be cool if the situation was different. But it just isn't.
He was talking about Resto, but apparently his opinion carries through Feral as well, so... L2P Aadra, duh ;) (/sarcasm)
Anyways, my posting above was apparently not clear enough. I agree with everything you guys are saying about the effects of Expertise on mitigation, but the OPs question was about maximizing Stamina in trade for the Hit/Exp values he listed.
1 Stam adds a LOT more TTL than 1 Expertise Rating
, and I think we can all agree there (I'm not saying it's not important, but the parry haste is at-most 40%, and since we all basically agree that you're never going to hard-cap 15%, we already accept a few parries as inevitable anyways).
For tanking the best thing to shoot for is 15% expertise and hit doesn't matter at all.
Most will agree that aiming for 15% Expertise is unwise. Some bosses have parry chances as low as 11%, maybe lower (?) -- 15% Expertise means you may have a LOT of wasted stats in some (most?) situations.
In terms of failure rate
(or,
TPS
), when you have over 6.5% Expertise, 1 Expertise Rating and 1 Hit Rating are identical, so if the OP is doing what he implied and trading out any stats he loses for pure stamina, then he will gain more TTL AND more TPS by choosing the highest sum-total, which is 7.7 Hit / 8.75 Exp.
If the OP was in fact asking a different question than the one he wrote, then perhaps I'd offer a different answer.. My tank set has 6.6 Hit / 9.5 Exp (I'm alliance), so maybe that reveals my opinion about the proper choice -- but the OP asked a very specific question:
so I cna gem more hp without gimping my threat gen.
If I make the assumption that whatever Hit / Exp comes out gets replaced by 1.5x as much Stamina (stat budget), then
the best choice for both TTL and TPS is 7.7 / 8.75
.
But if this assumption is untrue, and it's more of a "general tanking advice" question, I think I'd say 6% / 10%.
Post by
MegaVolt
Cross-Thread quoting FTW (
source
):
The sad truth is that Blizzard has built the talent trees in such a way that there usually is only one viable spec and all others suck in comparison. At most you got a few talent points that are totally unimportant (filler points or left overs) that you can freely distribute. Those are mentioned in the sticky.
It would be cool if the situation was different. But it just isn't.
He was talking about Resto, but apparently his opinion carries through Feral as well, so... L2P Aadra, duh ;) (/sarcasm)
Yes, I was talking about resto. That statement does not apply to tanking in general. And yes, if he only runs with this team then the changes he made to his tank spec are at least partly wise.
Still I think it was a very valid assumption that he might have just specced a little wrong without knowing it. After all I worded my criticism very carefully and in no way offensive (since I know that there is a chance that those changes he made to the normal spec are intentional - as opposed to the one in the resto topic you quoted, that resto spec just sucked and I said that plain and simple).
About demo roar:
AP reduction is about 410, with talent its around 570. 160 AP reduction should equal around 11 dps, right? Is my calculation wrong? Does it work different then the tooltip says or does AP have a much higher effect on mobs then it has on players or something like that? I have to admit I never really payed much attention to the talent since it looks so crappy and until now everybody here has always confirmed that is is completely useless. It just doesn't seem like a good way to spend 5 points. I'd put those into Master Shapeshifter still.
About the hit/exp issue:
Yes, he was asking the threat question. That's why I wrote that if all he is concerned with it threat then he should just go for the bigger combined number.
But I think it is also important to tell him that under normal circumstances this is the wrong question to ask. That normally he should be more worried about survival then threat and that expertise has additional benefits - it generates as much threat as hit but it also keeps him alive.
Oh by the way I think there might also be a typo in the original post:
hit at 7.5% and expertise at 7%
or
hit at 7.7% and expertise at 8.75% ?
That doesn't really make any sense. 7.7 > 7.5 and 8.75 > 7. Why would he ever even want to consider taking the lower ones if the alternate setup has both stats higher? Well it could be that he is losing agil or sta then but he didn't mention other stats so it might very well be a typo.
Post by
174083
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
About demo roar:
AP reduction is about 410, with talent its around 570. 160 AP reduction should equal around 11 dps, right? Is my calculation wrong? Does it work different then the tooltip says or does AP have a much higher effect on mobs then it has on players or something like that?
First of all I never said you should spec into Demoralizing Roar. It was simply an asnwer to
MegaVolt
. Second of all it has a bigger impact on incoming damage than you imagine. Why? Read here:
WoWWiki - Attack Power
Mobs have different attack power formulas than players. Damage done per second of mobs is given by:
(DPS_from_AttackPower + Base_DPS) * Multiplier.
For most mobs, attack power is about 30% of total damage; bosses have higher multiplier than trash mobs. That means -attack power debuffs have significant effect on raid mobs. Some tests suggest Improved Demoralizing Shout could reduce the damage taken from a level 60 mob by 25%
And the same is true at level 80. So Demoralizing Roar has a significant effect. Improved Demo Roar further increases that effect by 8-10% - when faced with bosses that hit like trucks, any help you can get maximizes the chances of success of your raid.
It's all about min/maxing and careful planning. You should tailor your spec according to the raid composition you run with on a regular basis. If you mostly PuG, then use an all around build and leave out Imp Demo Roar from your talent tree.
Post by
pelf
Wow, l2p aa.
Post by
Aadramelekh
Wow, l2p aa.
Q Q
Et tu, Brute?...
Post by
202475
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
175113
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
GenXCub
Growl works off melle hit btw. Has done since wrath or a pach not long after.
I believe it's still spell hit, otherwise why have a glyph that adds 8% chance to succeed, as well as Paladin and Warrior taunts using spell hit.
Post by
MegaVolt
Growl works off melle hit btw. Has done since wrath or a pach not long after.
I believe it's still spell hit, otherwise why have a glyph that adds 8% chance to succeed, as well as Paladin and Warrior taunts using spell hit.
Should be easy enough to test ;) I've heard both claims and I'd really like to know which one it is.
Read here:
WoWWiki - Attack Power
Mobs have different attack power formulas than players. Damage done per second of mobs is given by:
(DPS_from_AttackPower + Base_DPS) * Multiplier.
For most mobs, attack power is about 30% of total damage; bosses have higher multiplier than trash mobs. That means -attack power debuffs have significant effect on raid mobs. Some tests suggest Improved Demoralizing Shout could reduce the damage taken from a level 60 mob by 25%
And the same is true at level 80. So Demoralizing Roar has a significant effect. Improved Demo Roar further increases that effect by 8-10% - when faced with bosses that hit like trucks, any help you can get maximizes the chances of success of your raid.
It's all about min/maxing and careful planning. You should tailor your spec according to the raid composition you run with on a regular basis. If you mostly PuG, then use an all around build and leave out Imp Demo Roar from your talent tree.
Thanks, I wasn't aware of the higher impact of AP on mobs. Guess I have to use demo roar more often ;)
Still got a question about that: The Wiki meantions lvl 60 mobs which suggests that this information is extremely outdated. Is there anything more up to date on the effects of mob AP? I know you wrote the same is true at lvl 80 but I'd like to read some more details if possible.
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