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Varian Thread
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Post by
Patty
Whoa, keep it civil or you might provoke another flame war resulting in another locked thread.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
as I said on my edit. think about it for a sec.
if the old gods want it=not good for stormwind, not good for azeroth, not good for anyone, just cuz varian wants' it doesn't mean it's a good thing, or that it will make azeroth a better world.
quite the oposite, the old gods have wanted this war for a long time, this is what they planned to bring about apocalypse to the land, and varian and garrosh doomed us all by foolishly playing the old god's plan to the perfection.
varian and garrosh are both nothing but pawns, nothing more, nothing less.
Sing? You mean Sign?
my bad, my keyboard is kinda malfunctioning.
Please but your bias aside and relate to the situation.
A alien from another plant comes and befriends your father, then brutally murders him and rips his heart out in frount of your eyes.
Not exactly some thing that could be forgiven by a excuse like that
please put your bias aside and relate to the situation.
while varian was under mind-controll he allowed the town of moonbrook to be purged to the ground, it was his duty to protect it and he ignored them. to refresh your memory I'll just copy&paste this:
news flash kiddo, try to tell that to the plp of moonbrook, ohh wait, they are dead.
why are they dead? humm, kay let's see, defias invades, varian refuses to send the army, they die.
see? granted, even if varian had sent the army in, some woudl had died, but not the whole town, it woudl still be in stormwind controll, but varian didn't sent help, so they all died, and the few survivors of the nearby farms had to form an improvised militia to fight the defias.
varian's actions while mind-controlled costed more lives than what garona has killed, true no king died, but HUNDREDS of peasants died, thanks to mister chin's inaction.
their lives are on his hands, that's why he's the frikking king, if he lets them die, its his fault.
there is a reason why the "beaten corpse" is not thrall's fault, wanna know why? because thrall doesn't neglect the defense of his plp.
on every orc village, every single one, u see orc grunts defending it, if some plp die even with that defense, at least thrall can say he did his part by having the town protected.
varian on the other hand sent no help whatsoever, so what should had been just a few deaths became hundreds of unnecesary deaths.
and yhea even when his actions costed the lives of hundreds, you still forgive him for the mind-controll.
he didn't killed them with his own hands, but he let them be killed by outside forces, wich is quite the same considering it's his responsability to protect them in the first place.
thrall however did his part to protect his people, westfall has to be protected by an improvised milita, due to lack of suport form stormwind, duskwood has to be protected by the nightwatch due to lack of suport form stormwind, lakeshire has to be protected by a small garrison due to lack of suport from stormwind.
have you seen a horde town that has to make improvised militias due to lack of suport from orgrimmar? nope sir.
if he can be forgiven by his actions wich costed the lives of hundreds just cuz he was mind-controlled, then why can't he do the same?
Because its old news. Your kicking a dead horse.
no this horse is very much alive, u haven't proven yet, or provided a valid argument to what I expressed here.
varian's actions while under mind-controll costed lives, he was forgiven because those actiosn weren't his own, it was a move made by onyxia, using varian as a puppet.
Garona's actions while under mind-controll costed lives, and yet she wasn't forgiven, even when her actions weren't her own, it was a move made by the shadow-council (and later as we found out, the old god yogg-saron) using her as a puppet.
if garona is to be made responsible for her actions while under mind-controlled, then varian should be held responsible for the hundreds of lives lost due to his pathetic rule as a king, he should step down and let the throne be taken by someone else.
this is not a dead horse, not untill you provide a defense for this rather than say "I'm too tired for this tonight" and then claim it's a dead horse 2 days later. that's not how debates work man.
as for the house of nobles actions leading to the death of varian's wife, the house of nobles were the ones who denied payment to the stonemasons (later known as the defias), they did so under the order of katrana who had them mind-controlled too, and even while their actions led to the death of varian's wife, (and the deaths of many others ) varian forgave them because tehy were mind-controlled.
Last I checked Varian happily allowed for the trade.
he agreed to the trade, and then backed off when the twillight hammer atacked, it was him who called it off, not the horde, wich was inocent of the atack.
wich leads to point 2:
varian knows the horde is inocent of both atepted assassinations to him on theramoore, but even knowing that, he acused thrall of conspiracy to comit murder.
however, when garrosh acuses the alliance of consortign with demons on the argent tournament, without proof, he feels insulted.
is that hypocresy or what?
your move brother (and don't bail on me again, finish your debates like a man)
Post by
Patty
Whoa, keep it civil or you might provoke another flame war resulting in another locked thread.
*Cough*
Your kicking a dead horse.My thoughts exactly on this thread.
Post by
Rankkor
humm patty I am keeping it civil, so far no insults, no name-calling, and no bashing.
see? I can be a nice scout when I want to xD
Post by
Adamsm
(and later as we found out, the old god yogg-saron)I hate Blizzard. Yogg-Saron had nothing to do with Garona, all the spells and enchantments were put on her in Draenor, the Shadow Council never went North into Northrend, there is no way they could have encountered the Old God of Death. Blizzard just added in the Assassination of Llane as a sigh of the Madness the world had experienced.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
I believe Rankkor is spanish. Nonetheless, natural english speakers commit mistakes all the time. This is a provoking statement that contributes nothing to the debate.
I'm venezuelan ;) but yea my natural language is spanish (el español es el mejor idioma del mundo JAJAJA) and true enough, coments like that are unnecesary, if I had a dime for every time darkton has said "stupied" I'd be a very rich man xDDD
to put another example as to why varian's actions during his mind-controlled state did costed hundreds of lives.
let's supose that mexico invades the united states, the mexican army invades los angeles, and proceeds to execute everyone there, civilians, soldiers everyone, no exeptions.
it is the duty of the president of the united states of america to send the US army there to both fight off the mexican army, and to protect the plp of america.
if the president refuses to send the army to protect los angeles from that atack, then every single one of the dead plp on los angeles is the president's fault, because it's his duty to protect them.
if he refuses to protect them, then is just as bad as if he had gone to los angeles with a machine-gun and pulled the trigger him-self.
same goes here, 3 diferen't provinces of the kingdom of varian needed him, and in their moment of most dire need, what was his answer to their pleas? he gave them the finger.
this costed lives, hundreds of them, the whole village of moonbrook was burned to the ground, every citizen killed, the nearby farms had to form an improvised militia to survive.
the duskwood region had to form a nightwatch to survive.
all of these are terrible crimes, that are directly on varian's hand, and all of them have been forgiven, both by his plp and by himself.
why were they forgiven? because these crimes were comited by varian while under mind-controll.
so yhea, if this excuse works for him, my question darkton (and don't dodge it) is why doesn't it work for garona?.
there is the dillema.
this horse is not dead till u answer that question.
Post by
Patty
humm patty I am keeping it civil, so far no insults, no name-calling, and no bashing.
see? I can be a nice scout when I want to xD
I'm saying generally, I can pretty much see where this will end up going...
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
I'm saying generally, I can pretty much see where this will end up going...
Let it be known that
I
did not want to take part in this.
If you don't want to post - don't post. No one is forcing you to.
Post by
Adamsm
Likley changed due to his return.Have to disagree there; Blizzard hasn't updated the quests at this point so even with Varian in Stormwind, when you do the questline in Redridge to ask for help, General Marcus says no, and the Westfall Garrison and Darkshire groups still say that they are being left out in the cold from assistence from Stormwind.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Still leaves them out in the cold.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
This is one kind of arguments that I dislike. Simply because those places won't be given any "story continuation" until Cataclysm. As far as we know, Stormwind aid may have been sent to Westfall, Darkshire and Redridge as well.
The same is applied to Battlegrounds, Hillsbrad, Arathi and there goes.
Heh I know Delt, but yeah, everything is getting the overhaul once Cata drops.
Post by
Rankkor
Thrall did nothing as Razor Hill was originaly burned down to the ground. he did nothing. He is the worst warchief in the history of warchiefs
first of all, razor hill has never been burned to the ground, and second, even if it was, razor hill is protected by grunts of orgrimmar, so yhea in the event that it was atacked and plp died, it wouldn't be thrall's fault because he placed plpl there to protect it.
moonbrook was diferent, nobody came, they needed help and got nothing.
Varian was kiddnapped at this time, Prestor was the one who refused to send troops.
no sirre, acording to wow's timeline, varian was kidnapped shortly before the start of vainilla wow (4 years after the third war) but the people's militia and the nightwatch were formed several years ago, these events happened while varian sat on his ass on stormwind giving a crap about what went out of his city.
Thrall let the Horde lose the Second war because he was to busy living in Durnholde. He is a discrace to the Horde.
Shame on tee
that's a bad sarcasm, thrall wasn't a warchief back on the second war, he was a baby back then.
Last I checked, there are guards stationed at various towns under Stormwind control.
last I checked, sentinel hill is protected by the people's militia, and darkshire is protected by the nightwatch, all because stormwind dind't sent reinforcement to neither region.
now you name me a horde village that had to improvise a militia due to lack of reinforcements.
He did not rip any of Valeera or Broll's family member's hearts out after pretending to be thier friends. Its quite disturbing to even imagine, let alone actually being there to see it. Thats why I don't forgive Garona
I was hoping u would say that.
because htere is the dillema, he is taking this personal, and leaders aren't suposed to do that.
he doesn't forgive garona, even when she's inocent because he made it personal.
but even if you live on denyal, plp died when varian refused to aid them, lots of them actually, and he doesn't feel neither guilt nor remorse for those deaths, because he didn't made it personal then.
really would like proof that they were forgiven, seeing as how all of them are part of quests where they die, speculating that there is nothing left to forgive.
the players take justice into their own hands, but the leader itself did nothign to the house of nobles, they are still arround stormwind, after causing a riot that provoked the death of varian's wife, they still live and are not even imprisoned (the few killed are done so under-ground illegally by SI-7 operatives, under the table, trias himself says that you keep the whole thing secret after you kill a noble)
Can you prove he knew it?
valeera knows it, and the reason varian kept valeera arround (besides the fact that she's his friend) is to be his advisor, to tell him the truth even when he doesn't want to hear it, and if valeera saw that hte horde was inocent (she even spoke with garona after she was freed, and she knew she was also inocent of the whole thing due to the mind-controll) then we assume she told varian.
is not like valeera will go all like "OMG, I know the horde was inocent but I will keep the secret, there is absolutely no reason for me to tell varian".
of course she told him and varian ignored her, just as he ignores tirion, jaina, and everyone else besides his chin.
Not really, seeing as how we are at war. At the summit, we were at peace.
and who broke that peace? acusing thrall of treason and assassination without any kind of proof? oh yhea, varian did.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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