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10.2.5
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Varian vs. Jaina
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Post by
Rankkor
On another note, I'm glad that the whole story with the war is moving forward. If you've read many of my posts I am somewhat of an advocate of this war. I like the Alliance having a strong, passionate leader, and I like that the Horde is finally showing what they can truly be: a force to be reckoned with. For me, this war isn't just about grudges, hatreds, and wrongdoings, but about moving the story out of the stagnant pool that is the "coming together for the greater good" idea. It started out as nice, but it's become boring for me, so I'm glad for the change.I wholeheartedly agree.
I think one of the things that keeps the Warcraft series interesting after all these years is that, even when there's a much greater evil at hand that the Alliance and Horde would be better off teaming up against, they just can't do it.
Oh, sure, they can get a temporary alliance going, like at Mount Hyjal, but their mutually bloody and antagonistic history with each other (particularly that of the Humans and the Orcs) completely prevents them from ever having anything more than a temporary, stand-offish, and fragile peace that is inevitably broken. That's what keeps things interesting: even after all they've accomplished together against the Scourge, Burning Legion, et al, (not to mention all they
still
have to accomplish), the Horde and the Alliance just can't get along. That's the heart and soul of what Warcraft is.
yhea, but as the oracle said (I'm talking about the matrix oracle)
Everything that has a beggining also has an end.
I'd love to see this senceless war come to an end at some point, as much as it makes the game intresting and whatever, it's frustrating that every time I think peace is right arround the corner, there comes plp like garrosh or varian to ruin it completely.
this is the reason I wanted world of warcraft to be based on the second war, or the first one, but not to continue the saga, the saga should move on in the place were it started, as a Real Time Strategy game.
I gotta say I miss the good ol' days of the RTS warcraft, and I bet I'm not the only one.
Post by
taurenmoo812
In my own opinion, well on the one hand I'm glad a story is progressing to do with this, on the other hand, I know for a fact a story has to have a beginning, a middle and an ending.
Perhaps the story is only someway in the middle at the moment, and it was needed to spice things up, so to make the horde vs alliance conflict flame up again, they introduced two characters that would be the opitomy of war between both sides. You have Varian with his fans saying 'omg he has his reasons for it he got ^&*!@ slapped as a child blah blah blah'. And of course you got Garrosh who brings to the horde that old horde style of 'kill all and take everything'.
The problem however is you have characters as Thrall and Jaina who are the complete opposites of these two characters, wanting for this senseless war to end.
Varian has complete tunnel vision and is unable to see how his grudges and hatred for the orcs what it would do in the long term, and Garrosh is even worse because he wants to undo everything Thrall has done to save his people, both from imprisonment and from themselves.
I don't mind them shaking things up in terms of this war, but if they go so far as to kill characters that people not only enjoy, but ones who make the story of warcraft what it is, then all they will end up doing is taking any longevity.
In the long term, do you honestly think one side will be able to beat the other side in this horde vs alliance war? Do you honestly think one side will be labeled as the bad guys and one side the good guys, and the good guys win out? Everything it is built around now is shards of grey, not black and white. And until people can get over thinking this is a war of good vs evil, then nothing will progress.
Post by
Rankkor
back on topic, the main reason I don't think varian is a good leader is this.
Skeeran already touched the first issue, his dismissal of almost all the races of the horde as animals (dehumanizing the enemy to make it seem less wrong to slaughter them)
but an even worst issue is that he's easy to manipulate.
my best example is what happened at the theramoore peace meeting, varian and thrall agreed to meet to negociate a truce for both factions.
then the old gods decided to stirr things up, sent an assassin to kill varian, the assassin was garona herself, she failed (and miserably too) but her secondary mission was completed nonetheless.
varian just saw she was an orc, and automatically assumed she was horde, and worst, he didn't assumed she was a former horde agent gone rogue, nope, he assumed she was sent by the horde to kill him.
his only evidence? her skin was green.
-.- duh this guy is way to easy to manipulate.
if I was a villian who wanted to take over the world, the first obstacle in my way would be the alliance and the horde, if both of them atack me separatedly, or worst if both of them join forces to fight me, then my victory will be harder, or I would simply be defeated.
the smartest move would be to put my enemys at each other's troaths, and while doing that to varian is exeedingly simple, doing this to thrall would be next to imposible.
all I'd have to do was have a small army of humans and orcs at my command, have the humans smuggle the orcs in crates into a populated village like goldshire, put horde tabards on the orcs, and then have the orcs kill as many plp as posible before they are slain.
now a common leader would investigate, would ponder in wisdom, but varian would automatically say "this is an act of war".
if i try the same tactic at razor hill, or bree............ the horde wouldn't be so hasty to draw conclusions since both thrall and sylvannas are among the most cunning figures on azeroth.
now let's review what villians have both orcs and humans working for them:
Arthas: has the cult of the dammed, which has both humans and orcs on them as we've seen in icecrown.
Malygos: has spellcasters of human gnomish trollish forsaken elven and even orcish race. (yhea we're not in cataclysm yet and already there are some orc mages on dragonblight :P I should had taken those as a sign)
Deathwing: has the wyrmcult, wich includes humans, orcs and..... o_O WTF? dranei? yhea draenei too.
Old gods: have the twillight hammer cult, wich includes members of all the races including orcs and humans,
Burning legion:; has the shadow council, composed mostly of orcs, and also several human worshipers, heck even gnomes, draenei (maybe I should call them eredar out of respect) and blood elves (out of spite I'll jsut call these fel elves)
my point is: all the bad guys have several races including humans and orcs working for them, and for all of them it would be exeedingly simple to put varian against the horde because he's easy to manipulate.
Velen, Tyrande, and Malfurion may not be humans, but they certainly aren't easy to manipulate like that.
and if it's a human leader u want, Jaina is definitly not easy to manipulate.
Humans have been under the rule of leaders easy to manipulate long enough, I think is time a leader who's actually smarter and more cunning steps in. I'm sure they certainly dont' want another force manipulating their leader.
Post by
Arkham
In the long term, do you honestly think one side will be able to beat the other side in this horde vs alliance war? Do you honestly think one side will be labeled as the bad guys and one side the good guys, and the good guys win out?Who said it had to be like that? Even if it does turn into a "good guys versus bad guys" thing (which is hardly a requirement anyway), that doesn't inherently mean that
any
one has to definitively win, much less specifically the good guys. I think you assume too much about those who want the war to be escalated.
Post by
taurenmoo812
In the long term, do you honestly think one side will be able to beat the other side in this horde vs alliance war? Do you honestly think one side will be labeled as the bad guys and one side the good guys, and the good guys win out?Who said it had to be like that? Even if it does turn into a "good guys versus bad guys" thing (which is hardly a requirement anyway), that doesn't inherently mean that
any
one has to definitively win, much less specifically the good guys. I think you assume too much about those who want the war to be escalated.
I didn't say I was against the war, since it would keep things flowing in terms of the mechanics of the game.. but I think thats where the games lore, and the game itself differ. Warcraft has a rich lore to it with in depth characters, but all that doesn't matter when it comes to making warcraft into a gaming enviroment as it is. In a real world situation, no war is meant to last forever, but in a gaming enviroment, it would do for the gaming aspect.
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
taurenmoo812
And as for YOU, taruenmoo, you need to stop acting so stubborn over Varian and see how the Alliance sees things. I understand how you see things, but ask yourself this...
Has Varian said "You orcs will never change"? Has he brought up the first or second wars once since he returned?No, he has not; he said "We allowed them to prosper and in turn they perpared for our destruction."Which is ture, in the back round. And i dont know where you got the idea Varian wanted the orcs all dead at the end of the second, he supported Terenas' interment camp idea.
I don't think someone who's point of view stems from what is said by a character (thats only had a spotlight for the last year in warcrafts lore) has much say in the opinion of others, simple because the characters new.
What you seem to be saying is that the alliance point of view is based purely on what Varian Wrynn says and thinks, that his word is absolute. Everything you've said on your post is a confirmation of how you really don't think outside the box.
I however have certain favourite lore characters that have the alliance banner, I don't like that fact because how I feel the alliance are now, but that doesn't change my opinion of them, ones like Brann, Jaina, Tyrande, Velen.
You got to stop deluding yourself that Varian can be seen as a redeemer, and be it I've yet to see any other alliance leader back what he wants to do, only those dumb enough to follow him into a senseless and pointless warfair are as stupid as those who would follow Garrosh.
p.s: the avatar trying to be ironic?
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Well... you really need help
again with the personal atacks? and I though we had left that behind, can u really not post your opinions wihtout atacking everyone arround you? seriously, take a good look at my post, did it contained ANY SORT of atack agaist you?
I have reported you for harrasment again, I'm not gonna take the flame bait this time.
you know, is amazing how fast you've managed to alienate yourself from 90% of this comunity in less than 3 days.
that's got to be some sort of record.
as for the rest of your post, I'm not gonna add my brilliant repply simply because of that atack against me, unlike you I don't want to repeat what happened at the "garrosh vs thrall" thread.
if u wanna dance that tango, go find yourself another parthner cuz I'm not gonna play along.
and taurenmoo, brother, I like you, a lot, we're buddys, and as friends I recomend you to take my aproach, and let this guy dance alone, we don't need him.
he's the one new on the comunity, he's the one who's really fast running out of friends here, he's the one who's gonna end up alone because he doesn't seems to stop his atacks agaisnt everyone else.
seriously, I've seen others defend varian without resorting to that low low standard.
(BTW that ban is getting closer and closer by the minute, I really mean it bro' post what you think about varian WITHOUT atacking those who are agaisnt him)
Post by
taurenmoo812
Well, im not saying Varian i right in every way, but you are saying he is wrong in every way. Im trying to think outside the box and what you think, you think declaring war on the horde always means that they look at the past.
Considering this is exactly what Wrynn is doing, and basing his actions on events that happened to him in his past, its hard to argue saying nobody else should base events on the past.
I read the comics, and saw how that idiot, after the events in theramore and his attempted assaination, pinned it on the horde because Garona, being green skin and being who she is, that it must have been the hordes doing. Even his own son shows more aware of events around him.
I am not saying im right 100% and everyone else is wrong, im just trying to stand up for the person im defending, like you defending Thrall in your "I will not follow Garrosh Hellscream" thread. But, yeah, there are a few people here proving me wrong. Not including Rankkor. Hivoltage really needs to read the comics be for he jumps into this, or at least study Varian a little better.
I'll give you that. You want to defend a character in the lore you like and thats your choice to do so. But when you have to say other characters in lore are wrong, in an effort to try and make your character more right, even when your turning the other cheek, and unable to admit the fatal flaws in your character, then people will draw upon it.
In the horde case, the opposing nature of this has Garrosh as the aggressor, and its easy to draw on the fact nobody likes him and with good reason, but you, despite having Jaina as a counterpoint to Varians aggression, can't take wind of his major faults?
Anyway, how is someone in the Horde admitting to herself that she wants the human race dead, i dont think the war is so senceless. It seems most of the main characters in WotLK are right in thier own ways... expect mabye Garrosh.. not sure, dont know that much about him :/ Anyway, Varian appears not to want his personal revenge, but to AVENGE those family members dragged into the forsaken's labs and torn to shreads.
Thats complete and utter rubbish. Varian wants to find any excuse he can to make his war against the horde as justified as he can. You seem to overlook the fact its the orcs he hates the most because of what happened in the lore surrounding his capture, and wanting his own vengence on them means he will use anything to add to it.
It seems like your basing a lot of it on only half the facts, only playing it from an alliance point of view, and probably reading scources of information from websites. If the only source of information you're going on are the comic books, those comics are baised towards the horde more then the alliance.
I've read the books, the comics, and I've played an alliance toon to lv80 to get an idea of there side of things, but I'm a horde player. I can at least say I have a more open view of the games lore then anyone just playing one side with a one sided opinion.
and taurenmoo, brother, I like you, a lot, we're buddys, and as friends I recomend you to take my aproach, and let this guy dance alone, we don't need him.
You are right dude, its not worth having myself get hot headed over something like this. I guess just the nature of the thread had a subject I wanted to discuss, but I ended up in the flame war instead.
I think I'll just observe from this point on.
Post by
Adamsm
I really can't wait till November, then the comics split to a Horde and Alliance version. But again, as most keep forgetting, the events of the comics occur a few months behind the normal timeline of WoW, so it is more then likely, by the split the council will have been created and the Battle of undercity will occur, where they will go from there.... hard to say.
Still, I am of the hope that eventually Blizzard will alter Varian away from the way he is now, because it's more of a hindrance then anything else.
Post by
Rankkor
You are right dude, its not worth having myself get hot headed over something like this. I guess just the nature of the thread had a subject I wanted to discuss, but I ended up in the flame war instead.
I think I'll just observe from this point on.
same thing happened to me at the garrosh vs thrall topic, and look how that turn out? a flame war :S after that mess I apologized, he apologized, I extended an olive branch, an offert of peace, and then I post my opinion on his thread wihtout any type of personal atack agains him and he goes at again and resorst to atacking his debater.
is not worth it, there is already a similar topic made by patty, one in wich this guy already said wasn't gonna post anymore (so we can asume he's not gonna launch any atacks against anyone over there) so I vote we continue this rather intresting discussion in a more civilized place.
I really can't wait till November, then the comics split to a Horde and Alliance version. But again, as most keep forgetting, the events of the comics occur a few months behind the normal timeline of WoW, so it is more then likely, by the split the council will have been created and the Battle of undercity will occur, where they will go from there.... hard to say.
Still, I am of the hope that eventually Blizzard will alter Varian away from the way he is now, because it's more of a hindrance then anything else.
=/ bummer, the comics are not sold in my country, I have no idea what they say.
in a single word addams, am I missing anything good? or is just alliance propaganda?
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