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Mana Regen?
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Post by
449911
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Post by
117913
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Post by
Paolo
In the war between spirit and mp5,
spirit wins
.
However,
intellect
is
superior
to them both. It's your best regen stat.
Edit:
Lol westrock you should write a tutorial on mana.
Post by
ande9249
Spirit will give a bonus to mp5 out of casting a spell, look up an explanation of the 5SR (five second rule) in the stickies. Talents, such as meditation, then take a percentage of that and plug it into a mp5 during while casting. MP5 however, will add its given amount to both in and out of the 5SR.
Mp5 is the more direct way of getting regen, but due to the fringe benefits, and the talents specifically
designed
around
improving
spirit
, usually its a no brainer. yes, int can be a better longevity stat once you have enough, but honestly, I want to see someone actually spec and gear a holy priest towards spirit more than int/crit and see what happens....
Post by
117913
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cawfee
I personally use Spellpower / MP5 gems along with things like the
Energy Siphon
as a Disc Priest, but I also work around the 5SR a bunch so it benefits me quite well. I may not have the same huge mana pool as Int users (21k currently), but I manage to keep it up efficiently throughout long encounters. I think it ultimately comes down to playstyle and group composition / how you time your healing.
E: One big argument for Intellect is the extra mana from
Replenishment
which is almost always present in any Raid composition.
Post by
ande9249
hmm, please indulge in a bit of math for a min.
every point of int gives ~20 mana (being generous) then 1% of that would be .2 mana p5 due to replenishment.
spirit gives .5 mp5 per point, and then with meditation, that is .25 while casting. since spells are now rated by "% of mana pool" as you shift from int to spirit as your main regen stat, the spirit gets better at it, meanwhile the more heavy you are on int, the less spirit is going to do for you.
for example, CoH (staple holy AOE spell) costs 21% of your mana.
if you have a mana pool of 30K it costs 6300 mana, and your 300 mp5 will take 21 sec to recover
if you have a mana pool of 20K it costs 4200 mana, and your mp5 of 300 will take 14 sec to recover
if you have a mana pool of 15K it costs 3150 mana, it now only takes 10 and a half seconds to recover
and as we all know if you are dumping int for spirit, the mp5 will also improve as we go so a more realistic end point would be
3150 mana for CoH at 15K mana, and 450 mp5, now takes 7 sec to recover... considering that it has a cooldown of 6 seconds, you can practically spam it forever.....
now I know that 300 mp5 while casting can be hard to attain, 450 even less.....but with the help of straight mp5 and holy concentration procs....not out of reach....
to recap, adding int will hurt how well spirit regens mana for you...the smarter you are the harder it is to feel your religion :P
PS. I acknowledge that replenish will ALWAYS recover that mana for you in 21 sec if you have 0 mp5
Post by
167046
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Post by
Crysania
The "Spirit Death" of 3.1, isn't actually as bad as most people seem to make it out to be. All it really did was nerf the FSR 40%. Casting mp5 from
Meditation
is still the same.
Ande, where did you get your information?
The formula for mana pool is (Int - 20)*15 + 20 + base mana pool (which is 3863 for a lvl 80 priest)
Your first 20 int will give you 1 mana each, all points after that give you 15 mana.
Spell cost is also determined by your *base* mana pool, not your overall mana pool, so spells do not cost more as your mana pool increases.
The formula for casting mana regen from spirit looks something like this: 0.3*(5*0.005575*SQRT(Int)*Spirit). So Intellect will actually *help* mana regen from spirit and from
replenishment
.
For the OP, as said stack spirit over mp5. Mp5 may be better for regen only, but we have
several
key
talents
that will allow you to get more use out of the spirit.
Post by
ande9249
my apologies
a) I was unaware that the spell cost is determined by the base mana cost, though I personally still doubt this because I think my mana costs change when I change gear, but still I will look into it more
b) My estimates of how much mana and how much regen were not done by a formula other than on my lvl 80 priest i had x amount of mana, y amount of int, q amount of regen out of casting r spirit. x/y q/r....admittedly not researched and wrong
c) as for regen from spirit being increased by the sqrt of int, not encouraging by any means, but still better than I understood.
and yes i am bored,
sqrt of 1000 int~31 vs sqrt of 800~28, and so in the general range of lvl 80 priests, 200 int for a 10% loss
while a jump from 500 spirit to 700 spirit would be a 40% increase
and if a player would actually make that kinda of shift, they would gain 26% (weird proportions from the formula) regen then they have currently
ex: 132mp5 becomes 166, gain of 34 mp5 (and yes this is in casting with meditation)
and lose (15*200=) 3000 mana from their mana pool and thus 30 mp5 from replenish,
total gain of 4 mp5
while the opposite (300 spirit, 1200 int) would result in a 66% loss from spirit, a 20%gain from int,
132->87 or 45 loss mp5
and a 3000 increase in the mana pool gives a 30 mp5 gain from replenish
15 mp5 loss
obviously no one will take the second route, I agree, but when going from the stats of 1000:500 int:spirt, regen is STILL better found from spirit than replenish, that said.....mana base is good.... crit chance is good.....and so with the whole game in perspective....once you get about 500 spirit, int > spirit as an overall stat.
(also note, after 1000 int:500 spirit, if the item choice is 1 mp5 or 3.86 spirit, its worth it for the mp5 proportionally,
so an item with 15 mp5 is worth 58 spirit, 20 mp5 is worth 77 spirit, and so on after this point in regards to mp5 and not in regards to any other skill in the holy tree that uses spirit, the discussion with holy would have to account for having a proc to effectively double the contribution from spirit to mp5 and the conversion of 4:1 spirit to SP,
Post by
106152
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Post by
387103
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Post by
387103
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Post by
cawfee
I personally use Spellpower / MP5 gems along with things like the
Energy Siphon
as a Disc Priest, but I also work around the 5SR a bunch so it benefits me quite well.
If you are a Disc priest milking the 5SR ... you fail.
The 5SR was so last expansion. I'm not saying the 5SR is irrelevant because Ulduar fights in particular are designed using a chaos->respite->chaos model (think Mimiron).
But when you are engaged in a fight in WotLK -- after the nerfs to spirit-based mana regeneration -- and looking for ways to get outside the 5SR then you fail. It's just not worth it. And as a Disc priest in particular, your play style should have you casting often ... often enough that if you're sneaking out into the 5SR zone, you're probably not doing what you should be doing.
My 2 cents.
As you said, there are plenty of fights (Mimiron, XT) that allow for downtimes, and even in the more hectic ones it is far from impossible to jump into the 5SR without sacrificing healing output (this is assuming you have a well-composed group). Now, the +MP5 items aren't reliant on the 5SR anyway so I might have mis-stated my point a bit, but what I was trying to point out is that there are other methods of mana management than stacking Int, and that they are still viable to date.
I would personally rather have an efficient on-the-spot regeneration than no method of recovering if all my CDs are blown and my giant mana pool is empty. Once again, playstyle preference, has nothing to do with failure.
Post by
Crysania
sqrt of 1000 int~31 vs sqrt of 800~35, and so in the general range of lvl 80 priests, 200 int for a 10% loss
You may want to double check your math here. The sqrt of 1000 is ~31, but the sqrt of 800 is about 28.3. The square root of a number will always increase as the number increases, so more Int will never negatively affect spirit based mana regen.
Yes an item with mp5 will generally get you more casting regen than a comparable piece of gear with spirit, especially since they just buffed mp5 on gear by about 20%. However the spirit itself and its regen effectiveness can be increased with talents and buffs as well as give us more spellpower so it becomes an output stat as well as regen.
Post by
ande9249
@ gothri,
I was only comparing the gain from replenish to the gain from spirit, since those are the two sources that in general WILL always be up in a raid setting, or background regen if you will, rather than CD based skills. And if you did the math yourself, you can see I was taking into account the equation given above my post that included the sqrt of int,
the mana pool size is not a regen source, it is a mana source.... and so it was not in my scope of discussion
as for the 1000:500 ratio, please forgive me, those were simply averages of my own priest ratio atm and so I used them as the example. being a disc priest I would argue without the holy concentration skill and spiritual guidance, that spirit does less for me, and so Have gone the way of stacking int. However, I would like to say then when OOM happens on the large mana pool, it is a very hard thing to recover from if shadowfiend is down.
I agree whole heartedly, that If i was playing a Holy priest I would have a ratio closer to 7:6, but I was trying to do an analysis that was independant of current spec. (acknowledging that every priest gets meditation no mater what)
Thank you for your comments :)
PS thank you crysania for the math check
Post by
Vindeta
my brain hurts just watching this thread accumulate with all the numbers.... the answer is 42!
that's my story and i't sticking too it
Post by
ande9249
lol, thank you , sorry for the mental grief,
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