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3.3.3 Holy Paladin end-game PvE guide [Outdated 4.0+]
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Post by
valundar
Has anyone done the maths on Judging SoW?
That could come into play here as well...
Im guessing that if you can (and you should) judge all the time... that the additional mp/5 gained from the int may tip the scale..... but still.. its close enough that using mp/5 gems wont make you a moron.
There is no math to be done..
Judging will give you mana. It might not give you a SoW proc each judgement but when it does it will give you 400% mana back, and that's only on a 20k mana pool.
And since there are up to 4 different SoW procs that can occur when judging the chances of not gaining mana from a judgement are very very slim.
I dont see why i have had to say this 3 times already...
If you need math to understand this i feel sorry for you.
I asked what the math difference would be for the extra +int.
Superiority complex perhaps?
SoW grants a % of your MAXIMUM mana.
So, when you manage to get it to proc, the extra mana (from the +int gem) would be greater than the mp/5 one.
Edit:
There is no math to be done..
Judging will give you mana.
How much mana? What about swings?
This is a discussion on the +20 int vs the 10mp5 gem.
You are not adding anything to this.
Edit 2:
Cleaned up unnecessary language.
Post by
pezz
I'm adding a bit to the guide here:
No matter how you play, be sure to cuss and yell at anyone who tells you to do anything different, ever. This is the most important thing about being a healer. Some successful healers stand in void zones, some of us run around DPSing, some of us cast healing spells, but we
all
will yell at anyone about anything until we're blue in the face. And this is why none of us have ever wiped, ever.
Post by
valundar
I'm adding a bit to the guide here:
No matter how you play, be sure to cuss and yell at anyone who tells you to do anything different, ever. This is the most important thing about being a healer. Some successful healers stand in void zones, some of us run around DPSing, some of us cast healing spells, but we
all
will yell at anyone about anything until we're blue in the face. And this is why none of us have ever wiped, ever.
no... most important thing about being a healer is bubble+hearth or div sac the tank 30 sec into the boss fight.
As for the void zones... i miss the days when that was a strategy for mana regen..... (using the shadow priest's heals that are comin anyways by deliberately standin in the fire for a sec for a wee bit o damage.)
Then they went and made spiritual attunement a talent....
Post by
343083
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
vexxon
why was
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sxAzgz0sVu0tgdxZVf0x
(51/5/15) never mentioned?
That's the build i use, and its the one that fits my playstyle the best. (Doing normals so far, and will be starting out heroics tomorrow, dinged about 6 hours ago)
At 1400 Sp and 21% crit i rather take 5% healing over 3% crit.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&n=Imaloladin
<-- Is me if anyone is wondering.
Post by
pezz
I put it in, with a minor fix. Judging every ten seconds should be plenty enough for buffs/debuffs/mana regen, but you might not always be raiding with another paladin with Imp. Might, so I took points from Imp. Judgments and put them into Imp. Might. If you're in a guild where the raiding roster is pretty stable and you can count on a Ret Paladin being there, you could go with Judgments instead, or if you have nothing better to do with your life than farm gold all day you could respec before every raid and switch those two points around depending on who else has improved might. But as a general rule I'd keep the buffing talent.
Post by
pezz
Mini-bump.
Mostly just so everyone knows I've checked the 3.2.2 final notes (basically what the PTR notes have been for about a month now) and I'm sure none of them have made any of the information in this guide outdated. I've changed the title of the thread to reflect that it's still relevant to 3.2.2, so we don't get people saying 'but it was one minor patch old so I didn't read it. My question is, should I stack int and cast healing spells sometimes?'
If Gryphon could edit the name of this thread in the Helpful Threads sticky I'd be much obliged!
Post by
valundar
but with glyphed BoL mana save is bigger, than gain from LoH as mana pot. There is a theorycraft about this in elitistjerks.com
Source please. I don't buy it.
Beacon costs around 1400 mana (with Glyph of SoW). Over a 9 minute fight, you will prevent casting 3 Beacons with Glyph of Beacon. 1400x3 = 4200 mana.
Divinity gives you 7800 mana when used as a mana pot.
7800 > 4200.
If you have a fight shorter than 9 minutes, Divinity wins out by even more. If the fight is longer than 9 mins, Divinity wins out by even more (since you'll be able to use LoH again).
So how does Glyph of Beacon work better than Glyph of Divinity and using LoH as a mana pot?
As I recall. you get more mana from Divinity... IF you use it as a pot on yourself.
Its when you start using it as a tank cd.....(as you should) (it is close if you don't)
BUT: the beacon glyph will open up a few global cd's over the course of a fight. (tie this in with prot spec for longer SS for best effect)
Beacon glyph is fire/forget.
Divinity must be managed to get results ( and wasted tank cd to boot)
TL;DR Beacon Glyph wins.
Post by
StumpJumper
I cant tell you How helpful this post was (some of the re-buttle was confusing) but I have played Ret always, but am now dule speced to help out the guild on raids. I am going to run a lot of 5'ers and Heroics to make sure Im up to the task... But this is a Great way to get up and running with out reading through tons of outdated posts that have tried to update, but only managed to be confusing.
Noob Proof? Good referance? Starters Guide to Pally healing? Know your Classes abilities? all of the above.
I think it woudl be cool to detail out some of the talents and Why they are so helpful (other than common sense) and some possible rotations when speced in holy, and run into a mob or 2 while NOT raiding. IOW - Surviability for dailies or so - or do I have to re-spec to do my dailies, then spec back for running raids, etc...
Either way - Thanks for all the info.
Post by
pezz
You won't die doing dailies. Ever. Just faceroll everything you have that does damage and be prepared to alt-tab while all (two or three) of your offensive abilities are on cooldown. Keep DP up all the time and you won't have mana problems doing this. If I was you and was dual specced ret and holy I'd do all my dailies as ret. You can solo just fine as either spec but I won't claim that you can put out the same damage as holy as you can specced ret.
As for the talents, most of what you can pick in holy is pretty much set in stone. As for the few that can be moved around and the differences between sub speccing prot and ret, I feel like I explained the pros and cons in those situations adequately. I'd be happy to answer specific questions about specific talents but going through why each one or at least why most of them are worth taking without any prompt to do so isn't really worth the time or effort, in the opinion of this very lazy guide writer.
Post by
462701
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
Judgements use melee hit, so 8% means they'll never miss. If you're a holy paladin you'll have 4% from talents. Only time you should aim for hit is if you're a ret paladin.
If your judgements are disappearing it's because of something else.
Were they replaced or did they just get removed as a debuff from the boss?
Did they disappear from an addon keeping track of your debuffs or from the actual boss?
Was it a particular boss or all of them?
Post by
pezz
A lack of hit rating will never cause judgments to fall off a boss shortly after they go up. Hit rating only affects whether your judgment goes up for the full duration or not. As svirve said, do not get any hit at all. You get 4% from talents and you might get some raid buffs, that's good enough. He also covered the reason this happens: someone else judged the boss with the same judgment. Don't worry about this happening. You judge for three reasons: your haste buff, a small mana return (hopefully), and to put the debuff on the boss. If you successfully judge and a few seconds later someone else overrides the effect on the boss, all three of those reasons for judging are still achieved.
Post by
462701
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Awesome, feel free to blatantly copy/paste any of my info so they can remove my post. I haven't played holy since naxx(or raided on my pally since naxx for that matter), so I haven't been updating it.
Post by
pezz
Sweet, I might go scavenging through it. If I take anything out I'll credit you somewhere near what I stole.
Edit: I didn't really realize how much Holy has changed since WotLK first started until I looked through your thread again. I don't there's much of anything left that it would still be useful to copy out.
Post by
StumpJumper
Thanks again for the help. I was ableto assist healz on our weekly Naxx 10 man badge farming, as one of our healers was out. healed Military, Saph, and KT. Stressfull, but fun. I keep forgeting to Heal myself, but this will be fixed with experience.
/bump
/thanks
/Should be a sticky
Post by
pezz
/You're welcome.
/It's already in the Helpful Threads thread, which is where these sorts of guides go.
Post by
valundar
The following is some # crunching on the
Bacon glyph
vs
Divinity glyph
debate.
LoH Grants 1950 mana
with glyph of divinity: 3900 mana when used on someone else... 7800 mana when used on yourself.
This can be used once per boss fight.
4394 base mana for paladins
Source
1537.9 is the mana cost of Beacon.
1384.11 mana is the cost if you specced 5/5 in
Benediction
9 min fight
you will spend 12456.99 mana refreshing beacon (13841.1 if not specced for benediction)
With the beacon glyph, that same 9 min fight ... you will spend only
8304.66 mana (9227.4 if not specced benediction)
thats a savings of 4152.33 mana (4613.7 if not specced for benediction)
You also saved 3 global cool-downs.
6 min fight:
8304.66 (9227.4 no benediction) without glyph of beacon
5536.44 (6151.6 no benediction) with glyph of beacon
mana saved:
2768.22 (3075.8 no benediction)
with 2 Globals opened.
3 min fight:
4152.33 (4613.7 no talent)
2768.22 (3074.22 no talent)
1384.11 (1539.48 no talent)
1 global opened.
Summary of mana saved:
9 min fight:
Glyph of divinity: 3900 mana vs Beacon Glyph 4152.33 (4613.7)mana
6 min fight:
Glyph of divinity: 3900 mana vs Beacon GLyph 2768.22 (3075.8) mana saved
3 min fight:
Glyph of divinity: 3900 mana vs Beacon GLyph 1384.11 (1539.48) mana saved
Unless you want to use
Lay on Hands
as an innervate rather than a
Tank Cool-down
.... Id say the glyph of beacon wins..
Where Divinity pulls away.. the fight is so short that it really doesn't matter.
It seems to me that Prot sub-specced healadins would lean towards Glyph of beacon... whereas Ret sub-specced healadins would lean towards Divinity. (seeing as there is a greater benefit to beacon glyph without being specced into benediction.)
P.S.
Just thought of it... If you time your beacon refresh to go with
Divine illumination
That would somewhat reduce the savings from Beacon glyph.
Either way.. i still like the open globals that bacon glyph provides. They are close enough that it should be just personal preference... I found that I wasn't ever using my LoH as a mana battery.. so it makes sense for me to use Beacon Glyph.
Post by
pezz
Just from eyeballing the numbers I'd say the bacon glyph probably saves more mana at the 7.5 minute cast, maybe? Or possibly even the 9 minute one? (If someone could figure which one, that would be helpful.) In which case, Divinity is a much better glyph for early content, especially with well geared DPS, with beacon pulling ahead in later content.
As for your P.S. note: It's always good practice to time beacon with DI, because it is a mana intensive spell. If I understand how the numbers work correctly, you'd refresh beacon during DI as long as it had less then half its duration left, so you have a pretty reasonable chance of using it such that at some point beacon would be half over and you'd still have DI up, so that's an important point.
As for the open global cooldowns: as I mentioned in the glyph discussion at the beginning of the guide, if you know a fight well you're going to be refreshing Bacon at times when you can afford the GCDs. If you have 10 seconds left on beacon and you know a HL spam is coming in 8 seconds, you're not going to squeeze the last little bits of mana efficiency out of beacon, you're going to over-right the old one. As such I don't think the few global cooldowns you gain from the glyph are going to make that big of a deal.
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