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Post by
Heckler
There's a lot of things about this whole Zimmerman situation that bother me. The actual verdict is sort of a tricky one, because I tend to agree with the general ideas of innocence until guilt is proven, and a high-burden standard on that proof, so I'm still sorting my thoughts. The race discussion is a really big one that I am still sorting my thoughts on, so I won't comment on either of those for now. But to summarize two things among many that are buzzing in my mind at this moment:
1: It bothers me that the justice system, at least as far as I understand it in a situation like this, has no proper way of applying a punishment to a situation described in the following hypothetical:
One man legally walks unarmed and innocent into a black box (
using "black box" in the electrical engineer sense of 'a device which you can only know input and output, but have no knowledge of the internals'
). A second man, armed with a weapon and convinced that the first man is a criminal, also enters the black box with the intention of locating / confronting the first man. The black box later outputs a dead first man, and a living second man. The second man makes a claim of lethal force in self defense, and because he just killed the only person who could possibly rebut that argument, or provide legal doubt against it, he cannot be punished.
From an engineer's mindset, simply considering the inputs and outputs of the unknowable 'black box' situation seems to warrant punishment by logical necessity... to me it doesn't seem to matter what happened inside the black box, because there's no series of events in the
entire set of possible events
that does not involve a human death at the hands of the instigator of a conflict -- but I don't think we have a law that reads like that.
2: It also really bothers me that people are describing Zimmerman as "a hero." I don't understand how that word can be used in any way to describe anything Zimmerman did. It seems instead like a knee-jerk reaction of half of the political landscape, in order to firmly place themselves on the opposite side of the argument from the other half -- for the sake of being on the opposite side.
Zimmerman will probably write a book about this situation, and it will be a #1 best seller among the group of people that consider him a hero. Political groups will buy thousands of copies to give away as prizes on their radio shows, or just store in boxes somewhere, and Zimmerman will be a millionaire. It irritates me to see him not only unpunished for his admitted killing of another human, but actually adored and rewarded for it. It feels wrong.
Post by
Nathanyal
There are several people trying to get cases against him, I doubt he is completely off the hook. The NAACP is trying to get a civil rights case against him, as well as having a petition signed for it that has already reached 450k plus signatures on it.
How about a change of scenery?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_IPh1Gm50k&feature=share
This was on the front page of youtube, so if you havnt seen it yet, here's a laugh for you :)
completely disregarding the fact that there was an incident.
Asiana Airlines brings LAWSUIT against NTSB and T.V. station
Post by
Magician22773
In cases like this, where there is no doubt about who killed someone, the burden of proof should be shifted.
Zimmerman should have had to "prove" he acted in self defense, not the other way around. When you only have 2 witnesses to a killing, and only one of them is living, it should be up to the shooter to provide the evidence that he was justified in pulling that trigger.
And, IMHO, Zimmerman could not have convinced me that he was justified. His injuries were less severe than your average 10 yr old gets in a playground scuffle. A bloody nose and a couple cuts on his head that did not even require a stitch? That does not seem to imply immediate threat of life or serious bodily harm...that implies he got his butt whooped.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I think that by virtue of him pursuing the kid armed with a weapon, he is guilty of at least manslaughter. You shouldn't be able to instigate conflict with people who you clearly haven't seen do anything criminal just because they're unknown to you, and then claim self-defense when the conflict you instigated goes south for you and you shoot the person.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I think he's a danger to society, and I think this verdict sets a frightening precedent for people who are trying to be vigilantes, or who feel justified in harassing people based on their preconceptions about them.
I believe that someone will take the law into their own hands in this case. The irony being that Zimmerman paved the way himself for people to be able to act as vigilantes and get away with it.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##
Post by
Nathanyal
Don't you think it's kind of hard to get up and run with someone on top of you, punching you?
And there are other people who would have done the same thing as Zimmerman, I know because I have read about it on my FB news feed. If they saw someone going around their community, who wasn't suppose to be there, they would have asked what they were doing.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
If some strange man was following me at night, I'd be scared. If strange men were allowed to stop me in the street and question me any time I was visiting a friend, was new to the neighborhood, walked to the store, etc., I'd never walk outside anywhere. Civilians do not have a right to stop people and interrogate them just because they have never seen them before. That's harassment. And based on Zimmerman's 911 call, and his lack of remorse about the killing, I would say he was likely anything other than calm and non-threatening when he approached him. You can not go around starting fights, and then kill the person when they start to win.
Post by
Nathanyal
So you would go to a gated community, that you're not invited to, in the middle of the night, dressed like a thug, just for the hell of it?
If someone came around our house that we didn't invite, we would greet them near our door with something nearby incase they weren't friendly.
And I'm not saying Zimmerman isn't at fault for anything. He could have stayed in his car, but he didn't. And Martin didn't have to start attacking Zimmerman, but he did. If they both did things that they didn't, we wouldn't be where we're at now.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
1) The kid was staying with someone IN the gated community. He HAD been invited. He was walking back to her house. So he was killed somewhere he was allowed and supposed to be. And Zimmerman has no ability whatsoever to tell who is and is not a friend or guest of every person in his gated community. Should he be allowed to harass every friend and relative of his neighbors who don't meet his dress code?
2) He wasn't at Zimmerman's house- he was walking down the street. I understand someone who was out front of your home, but would you stop people walking past your house, or on the cross street? Would you follow them away from your own property to see what they were doing?
3) Dressed like a thug. A hoodie is a reason to be suspicious. I'm not sure if you're aware, but in most US high schools these days about 50% of the student body wears hoodies. It's a pretty popular fashion, from upper class suburbia to the impoverished inner city. So in your opinion, you have reason to stop most teenagers for wearing a sweatshirt, because in your opinion in makes them look like a criminal?
4) We don't know who attacked who first. We only know who brought the weapon, who followed who and who ended up dead.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##ElhonnaDS##DELIM##
Post by
Nathanyal
But they are minding their own business, if you're trespassing on/near their "business". IF you didn't leave after being told to, someone might force you to leave.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
1) The kid was staying with someone IN the gated community. He HAD been invited. He was walking back to her house. So he was killed somewhere he was allowed and supposed to be. And Zimmerman has no ability whatsoever to tell who is and is not a friend or guest of every person in his gated community. Should he be allowed to harass every friend and relative of his neighbors who don't meet his dress code?
2) He wasn't at Zimmerman's house- he was walking down the street. I understand someone who was out front of your home, but would you stop people walking past your house, or on the cross street? Would you follow them away from your own property to see what they were doing?
3) Dressed like a thug. A hoodie is a reason to be suspicious. I'm not sure if you're aware, but in most US high schools these days about 50% of the student body wears hoodies. It's a pretty popular fashion. So in your opinion, you have reason to stop most teenagers for wearing a sweatshirt, because in your opinion in makes them look like a criminal?
4) We don't know who attacked who first. We only know who brought the weapon, who followed who and who ended up dead.
1) I heard he was staying at his father's fiancee's house, I never heard where that was at. If it was in-fact in that community, he should have just told him so. He even had a phone to call the lady who could confirm that she was in-fact a resident of the community that Zimmerman stayed at.
2) If I saw someone suspicious around my neighborhood, I would watch and see what they were doing. For all Zimmerman knew he could be going to someone's house to break in. Granted, I live in the woods and we can barely see our neighbor's porch lights through the trees, much less anything going on at their house. But we also live secluded out here and don't have to worry about break-ins. But at a place like my Grandparent's this would be almost the same thing.
3) If it was the middle of the day, sure it would be fine. But late at night, dressed in a hoodie with it up over your head can be seen as suspicious. Yeah, I always wore a hoodie in high school, and sometimes I still do. But I don't go walking around the neighborhood in the middle of the night dressed like that. If did, I'm sure people would ask questions.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
Just so you know, there was a history or robbery and break ins at the community. There was a right to be suspicious of people in the area that you didn't know.
From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times. During the 18 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men's race without first being asked by the dispatcher. Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting. Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.
2) By all means, and good for you! We all do the same. The difference is that we might note license plates "just in case", or say "C'mere ta me, d'ye see that van that was round earlier?" just in case, but we wouldn't call the police unless it was very serious. We don't carry guns, but you definitely wouldn't follow somebody suspicious up the street with a billhook, knife in your pocket, or even your bare fists. If you did, and a fight resulted, you would be in the wrong. If they broke into your kitchen, there would be more leeway.
So in response to this you can see why he had suspicion. It seemed routine for breakins to happen, and Zimmerman wanted to prevent another from happening.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nathanyal
Yes, I got that. And like I said several times, the way Zimmerman handled it was wrong.
He should have stayed in his car, keeping watch from a distance until the police showed up.
Something less serious:
Pro gamers can now get visas to the US.
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