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Pures vs Hybrids
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Post by
421780
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Post by
421780
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Post by
anywherenotes
But then hybrids get pidgeon-holed into Tank/Healing.
Bringing back Vanilla WoW
I don't really see what's wrong with that. IMO, the hybrids should get pigeon-holed into tanking/healing end game. If you wanted to DPS, then roll a pure class.
Complaining about hybrids being pigeon-holed into tanking/healing is like saying, "well, pures get pigeon-holed into DPS".
The only problem is new players start the game and just pick some class that looks/sounds fun. Then after hours and hours of leveling, they find out at 80 they can only do X well and that I can imagine would be quite annoying.
No, it's not same.
There are no pure tanking or pure healing classes. People who picked those classes knew they had trees that allow for dps as well. Had all the trees were for tanking/healing (not both), than the person picking the class chose that roll. However there is no such class.
So, when a rogue dpses, it's not because he was pigeon holed into it, it's because he chose to do so during class creation. When a hybrid is told they can't dps, that's you pigeon holing them.
BTW, in Warcraft (before WOW), where paladins a healing class? Did Arthas just heal ... did he tank? no he kicked butt.
Hybrids chose the class because they wanted flexibility. Pures chose their class so they will never be asked to tank/heal. Don't punish those who heal and tank for you.
Post by
xaratherus
Yeah, but you cannot make a point based of incorrect numbers and assumptions. Who the heck is talking about 20% more DPS? Sure, if pures always did 20% more DPS, then of course you wouldn't bring the hybrid. Did you pick out the one or two fights where rets are doing 20% more DPS? If there actaully was an overall problem where one class was AVERAGING 20% more DPS, that is something that Blizz did not inted and will lead to nerfs.
Hell, by looking at wowmeters online, there are only a couple of gimmick fights where Rets are underperforming by that large of a margin, and there are just as many fights where rets are outperforming the pures.
So sorry, you can't build your argument on false accusations and assumptions.
I will try to find the source, but I believe that Blizzard has stated that pures should, all things being equal, out-DPS hybrids by 5%. This assumes an exact equality of gear and skill level between the two characters and players, and that the fight style and boss statistics do not benefit one class over another. In other words, in a perfect world, pures should currently be out-DPSing a hybrid by 5%.
That being said, there are no "perfect world" fights in the game.
Let us assume, though, that this is not the fault of the player's skill but of the class design.
If hybrids currently are able to out-DPS pures during a fight, then that means the 5% rule is not working properly. We would need to increase pure DPS by at least 5% over the supposed 5% bonus they currently have - and that would
only
put them on an equal footing with the hybrid. Now we're at a design-level 10% bonus over hybrids, but at 0% in practice.
So now we increase them by an additional 5% so that we're actually seeing our 5% difference. At this point the pures are out-DPSing the hybrids by 5%, but are in fact 15% beyond the previous "by design" standard.
Now, in order to address those fights where the pure's DPS might be mitigated due to the encounter - say, by the movement required during the fight or a boss's resistance to the types of damage tossed out by the pure class - we would likely need to increase damage by an additional 5%. That puts us at 10% DPS beyond hybrids on fights that are not designed against the pure class, 5 % on fights that do work against the pure's favor - but 20% against the "by design" current number.
The problem with this is it assumes that the fault lies with the class or encounter design, and
not
in other variables such as differences in player skill or character gear levels (or gear choice by the player).
So while you accuse me of false accusations and assumptions, I did not just pull the number out of my ass - it was based on the above line of thought. I'm not a theory crafter; there are a huge number of variables I did not take into account with the above argument, I'm sure. But I feel that it's a solid basis for the number I threw out.
In addition, one thing you should take into account is that while wowmeters might show a large number of fights where Ret is out-DPSing other classes, that also doesn't take into account a huge number of other factors - such as, what's the sampling from those statistics (i.e., how many hybrids versus how many pures, what are the gear differences and skill level gaps between the hybrids and pures in those examples, and what sorts of problems are being introduced by the design of the fight in question in regards to the play mechanics of the classes involved.
Post by
303152
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Post by
421780
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Post by
xaratherus
How do you get to level 80 in 1 to 2 days of /played time? Please I'd like to know, so I can level up my alts faster.
I have to agree: It's been my experience that it's not easier to level an alt than it is to dual-spec. Perhaps it's that I'm not in an overly large guild, but I wound up with a healing off-set for my Paladin that was near-equal in quality to my tanking (primary) set.
Post by
328780
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95795
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Post by
Rubendesmet619
Omg not again "eyeroll"
Stop beating a dead horse. As an armswarrior I also hate it I can't top raidmeters anymore like I did as fury from Karazhan to BT but thats the way it is.
I also hate it that I bring 0 things to the raid as arms and do lower DPS then our little rogues. On the other hand somtimes I DO bring some decent stuf if others can't(only one paladin f.ex.)
ANYONE taking into account that a hybrid can offtank/offheal is a moron, hybrid DPS CAN'T heal for !@#$ and ANY DPS gets one shotted by any decent bos(I get hit by patches hateful for 50k+ on my armswarrior).
And let's b honost, any hybrid that gets asked to heal/tank in a progres raid wil just laugh like has been said.
Hybrids only have the advantege of respeccing on farmruns wich is o so interesting.
And if you have trouble finding a spot in a heroic as a DPS you got issues, its called friendslist and guild.
Guildruns are getting boring now though when you have 3 DPS doing 4k+ overal, Mostly I don't even get an OP to proc from rend for crying out loud!
Being able to respec matters outside of raiding but during the raid itself an ele shaman wil be invited because he can DPS, not because if things go wrong he can trow a heal.
And one last thing. Pures have the disadvantege they can't heal/tank. As a warrior who didn't tank a 25-men in 2years+ of raiding I call that a damn advantage as nobody is going to beg you to do it(tip: if you as a warrior have protgear don't tell your guildies or it wil be the last time you do a guildrun to a 10 or 5 men as DPS) I often thought about deleting my tankgear.
Not being able to heal/tank a disadvange? Sorry but I disagree. I call that a HUGE advantage.
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79224
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322291
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Post by
Bairforem
I personally think that hybreds deserve to do as much dps as others. Why you ask? Because those who play pure dps who bring no extra occasional support to raids really shouldn't get all the fun. Let me tell you playing a hybrid and having the expectation to do a tank or dps role.
At the same time I do think that blizzard could do more for pure dps classes. They should be up near the top of meters. When it comes to damage they should access at both single target and AoE. I think a good benefit would be to add more buffs pure dps classes give to raids that many hybreds get. Having good raid buffs such as what hybreds tend to have would be good.
Post by
Orranis
I was wondering what makes a "pure?" A class that can do nothing fulfill one party role, or a class that can only fill one role when they're specced to do so.
Is a pure's dps decided by their damage potential whilst subtracting their flexibility and utility?
Look at it this way, a pure dps class such as a mage
should
do more dps than a more flexible class. I don't see many mage tanks or healers in lfg. But something like, say, a Pallie should they do less dps just because their 3 talent trees all do something different? It is quite hard for a holy pally to perform well as a tank.
I am not entirely convinced that a pure's damage should be higher simply because they can't do anything else. If we take the same argument and apply it to healing, for instance, then druids should be the worst healers because they can fulfill 4 party roles (Tanking, healing, Melee dps, Ranged dps).
Taking the same line of thinking and applying it to Death Knights, DK's should be the worst at tanking because they have, three tanking trees, and the same trees could be dps, if talented slightly different.
I find the notion that "hybrid classes" should perform to a lower caliber when compared to "Pure's" is flawed. I understand that these statements apply mostly to dps but, what if the line of thinking was extended along the lines of my examples?
I understand that "hybrids" can perform more than one role, but to do that role to the best of their ability they must be properly specced, glyphed, and enchanted, something that "Pure's" also have to do. (they just have more choices on how to do that)
I'd like some input from people who play different classes, and I'd like it if they picked apart my argument and pointed out if, and where, my thinking is flawed.
Sorry about the wall of text, and please refrain from simple posts that are little more than QQ moar and L2P nub.
I agree with it. There is several things you should mention to make it more valid, I'll give you one.
Mages are ranged. They can attack almost any mob, and take a lot less AOE damage, and are favored in the average PvE enviroment. Only 3 out of 6 (Druid, Priest, Shaman/ Druid, Priest, Shaman, Death Knight, Warrior, Paladin) can do this, and while it's a little unfair to rouges, that's life.
Post by
skumbananer
I have no problem with pure classes having better potential dps than me as a warrior. I can tank.
But as it is now, the gap aint that huge. If we play with equal skill and gear, lets say im about 90% of a rogue.
Thats a ok advantage for a pure in my book, that means that if i learn my class i will be a better dps than for example a rogue who hasĀ“nt. Bring the player not the class.
Would be really lame if the difference was greater though, and thus forcing warrs into a tank role.
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303152
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203406
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113039
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Post by
Rubendesmet619
It kinde sucks imo that al the way trough Karazhan, Gruul, Maggy, SSC, TK, MH and BT I had the POTENTIONAL(yes, that, POTENTIONAL) to top meters. I remember comming in second spot on my first ever SSC raid in a new guild. I remember telling the rogues to stop slacking and them actualy doing it simply to be able to beat me(rogue clasleader loved me for that). I remember being in top 5 permanently without even being called overpowered as a furywarrior.
These days that is simply gone imo. Playing in one of the better guilds on my server makes it imposible to even compete for it making it pretty lame imo.
Now with this ArP nerf on top of that and a future titan grip nerf(common, you know it's comming) I don't have a good feeling about this.
Wel, I leveled up my DK to 63 this weekend so I have a replacement ready although I don't see myself replacing a character that has been my main for 3 years.
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