This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Hybrid Whining
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
188424
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
321143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Disagree, there's no reason why a hybrid class that spec's into a pure DPS build should do any less than a pure DPS class.
Otherwise, every raid would have a mix of hunters, rogues, 'locks and mages as DPS, and no other class, on the grounds that they provide the highest DPS and have enough CC between themselves. DK, Warrior, Pally, Shaman dps would be out the window. Pally tank, shaman healer for the buffs if TPS/HPS isn't gimped too, by that theory.
Otherwise, all a Pally would be good for is selling buffs pre-raid ;p
Post by
Corilithon
Utility mostly. A raid would still bring a hybrid dps such as Boomkin (5% crit, 13% spelldamage if missing a lock, 3% haste, Mark of the Wild if missing tank/healer druid) or Retadin (3% crit, Replenishment if no survival hunter or S-priest, 3% haste if no Boomkin, additional blessings if paladin tank/heals, additional judgment buff, etc.), Shamans for totems in general (including totem of Wrath) and Elemental Oath. Hybrid dps tend to have more utility buffs than pure dps classes (Not always more and not necessarily better, but still.)
It would not eliminate hybrid dps from a raid, but it would make it closer to BC where there was sometimes only one Retadin allowed to provide 3% crit, or one Surv hunter for Exposed weakness.
Post by
177543
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Synectics
I don't mind doing under pure dps as long as my utility makes up for the difference. Personally I have more fun while doing good dps and making everyone around me do better as well
Partly true. Ask any Shadow Priest how much DPS they can put out, and then ask them how much healing and mana they regenerate for their raid.
But I completely agree with Squish on this. When I spec Ret, I am a DPS -- not a "sorta DPS and sorta utility." I spec'd as a DPS, and I will DPS. If I spec tank, I will tank -- not "sort of tank" and "sort of not tank."
It's complete nonsense. Saying, "Paladins shouldn't be allowed to DPS as well as classes that have it as their original job" is just plain stupid and ignorant. If that were the case, Warriors should only be able to "somewhat tank" because their other two specs are DPS. Priests should only be able to "mostly heal" because they do have a DPS spec.
It's just like saying "Blood Elves are better than Tauren because they can be 7 classes, and Tauren can only be 5." It's just a completely asinine statement.
Post by
228908
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Caean, you're missing the point. You get dragged into a raid based on your DPS nowadays, not on your 'oh $#!7' utility. If people actually took the attitude that Ret pallies bring more to the table than an extra set of Blessings and an increased damage aura, then that'd be different. But they don't.
How many people would consider bringing in 4 Ret pallies to have good uptime on Divine Shield/Sacrifice? Or to have 4 Sacred Shields on the MT?
How many people even need Hand of Salvation, unless you have a weak tank? And aren't we talking about raids where such tanks would be kicked out if they couldn't toe the line?
The point is, at the top end, a Ret pally is being brought along or left behind on their DPS benefit. The other utility pretty much ceases to matter. Anywhere lower, and having equal DPS doesn't matter at all unless you're busy comparing sizes.
Post by
amythist
I remember that GC post a while back too, right around when Dual Spec was going live, where he was saying that he would like the pure dps classes, mage, lock, rogue, hunter, to deall a little more damage than the hybrid ones so they are a bit more appealing to bring with in raids, but he was only saying something like 5% at most, which all that really comes out to is that 2 good players in a pure dmamge race the pure dps class would win out by a slim margin, barring any need to move, or heal or pretty much anything else you have to do in about every boss fight
so really just learn your class and play it well and you'll do good dps, your not gimped to under preform or something just because you could have other roles
Post by
Synectics
Look, I play a paladin too, and I've healed, tanked, and done DPS.
Suggesting that we should be able to match dps of classes and specs that bring so much less to the table is what's idiotic.
The fact that you or anyone else only want to do dps and nothing else is a problem with how you play your class not with class balance.
This is common sense. This isn't just utility, these are major abilities that only the short-sighted don't use when "only DPSing"
You completely missed the point. I didn't say, "I LOL DPS AND NUTHIN ELSE OLOL."
The point was, when I am spec'd Ret, I am not a hybrid. I am a DPS. I am not a tank, nor a healer. I am a DPS. The fact that I COULD have spec'd differently should have absolutely no effect on what I DID spec as.
Yes, we have a lot of utility, and as I pointed out, class/specs such as Shadow Priests work much the same way -- they offer a lot of utility, without ever leading the DPS meters.
But this isn't an argument over the utility-to-DPS ratio. This is about possible-jobs-to-overall-DPS ratio.
EDIT:
But I completely agree with Squish on this. When I spec Ret, I am a DPS -- not a "DPS
but also a tank and healer
." I spec'd as a DPS, and I will DPS. If I spec tank, I will tank -- not "sort of tank" and "sort of not tank."
Sorry, Caean. I fixed my above paragraph to make more sense and fit more of what I meant to say. XD My use of the word "utility" in there wasn't at all correct.
Post by
228908
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
96875
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rouen
Both sides of the arguement are right, but wrong too.
It only makes sense that a pure DPS class should always be above a hybrid class on the DPS charts simply because if this wasn't the case, then WoW would only need Druids and Paladins and to hell with all the other classes, they would be reduced to bringing support buffs. Shamans would only be good for their totems (support), warriors and rogues for their interrupts (just one example), priests for their shields and raid buffs, Hunters for CC and Misdirect, Mages for intellect/CC, and locks for whatever else.
Pally tank for the boss, holy pally to heal the pally tank, ret pally for melee DPS. Feral druid for MT/OT, resto druid for raid healing, Boomkin for ranged DPS.
Forget about the huge competition for plate and leather that this would create, WoW would suddenly become boring. No one would be inclined to roll any of the other classes because they really wouldn't be needed minus their buffs. Pure DPS should always be on the top because this is their job, this is why they rolled a mage/lock (and what I call "lesser hybrids," the DK and warrior since they can only DPS and tank, not all three).
If I was a mage and a ret pally was always beating me, I'm limited to just DPS while a ret pally can DPS just as good as me, plus the potential to heal AND tank? I would ask myself "Why did I roll a mage?"
Post by
Synectics
If I was a mage and a ret pally was always beating me, I'm limited to just DPS while a ret pally can DPS just as good as me, plus the potential to heal AND tank? I would ask myself "Why did I roll a mage?"
On that note, why didn't you roll a different race? You know, Humans can potentially be 7 different classes -- Dwarves can't. Therefore, Dwarves should be better at what they roll, right? Blood Elves can potentially be 7 different classes, so why would you roll them? Better to be a more pure race like a Tauren.
That's really the best way I can state it. Just because you CAN be something doesn't mean you shouldn't be good at what you choose to actually be. I didn't go about getting an entire Ret set to be a tank or a healer -- I did it to be a DPS. I don't roll on tanking or healing gear, because I'm neither -- I'm a DPS. Plain and simple.
On the reasoning that hybrid classes can DPS, tank, and heal just as well as any other "pure" class, I would point out that every class has their little "niche." Mages can conjure food and water and create ports. Warlocks can summon and create soulstones and have really cool pets. Hunters provide Trueshot Aura and have really cool pets. Do you see what I'm getting at? Every class has very cool stuff that makes them more than just a DPS, tank, or healer, and therefore someone who wants to be useful in more ways than just DPS very easily can be -- last I checked, the market for Portals is not challenged by Ret Paladins.
Post by
Rouen
On that note, why didn't you roll a different race? You know, Humans can potentially be 7 different classes -- Dwarves can't. Therefore, Dwarves should be better at what they roll, right? Blood Elves can potentially be 7 different classes, so why would you roll them? Better to be a more pure race like a Tauren.
What classes the races can be are dictated by Warcraft lore aka whatever story Blizzard wants this game to have. That's all. Different races with different classes have minor advantages/disadvantages, nothing game breaking and therefore is not really an issue.
On the reasoning that hybrid classes can DPS, tank, and heal just as well as any other "pure" class, I would point out that every class has their little "niche." Mages can conjure food and water and create ports. Warlocks can summon and create soulstones and have really cool pets. Hunters provide Trueshot Aura and have really cool pets. Do you see what I'm getting at? Every class has very cool stuff that makes them more than just a DPS, tank, or healer, and therefore someone who wants to be useful in more ways than just DPS very easily can be -- last I checked, the market for Portals is not challenged by Ret Paladins.
This goes off topic of what I was saying. Technically all the roles of a raid can be fulfilled with just pallys and druids. Sure, mages and boomkims play differently and have different gameplay experiences, but that isn't the point. Hybrid classes are much more dynamic with the ability to fill all three primary roles. While it's moot to argue "which class is the better healer" since the four classes that can heal (priests/pallys/shammys/druids) have their own strengths and weaknesses, same applies to tanks, but this arguement is primarily about DPS. It just simply makes sense that locks/mages will outDPS a ret pally and a boomkin for the reasons stated above. Whether it's because you want to cast "Wrath or Fireball" and "Chaos Bolt or Crusader Strike" is irrelevant.
Edit: Clarified a couple things in the above paragraph
Post by
299926
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rouen
Never did I say that one class was better then the other in all aspects. I like the way the classes are done as is. My response is geared towards people who are QQing that Ret Pallies or a similar full hybrid like Druids should be equal DPS to a pure DPS class like mages.
Edit: Basically this all comes down to the design of the character classes in WoW today, it is much different then vanilla WoW. If you want to be high end DPS, then roll a pure DPS class instead of a hybrid. A mage is designed to be top-end DPS, not a ret pally. Blizzard will not make a ret pally's DPS go higher to match a pure DPS class. Either let it go and move on or roll a pure DPS class if you want to be DPS. That simple.
Post by
Synectics
My response is geared towards people who are QQing that Ret Pallies or a similar full hybrid like Druids should be equal DPS to a pure DPS class like mages.
Your argument seems to be that, because I can go respec and completely switch out my gear should mean I can't do any position as well as anyone else. But last I checked, most pure DPS classes can switch specs (and usually won't even need different gear) and their entire playstyle changes. In fact, you have 3 different options to DPS with -- Paladins have 1. From this perspective, shouldn't a Paladin's Ret spec be rather great at DPS, while the pure DPS classes are not, because they can choose to have different types of DPS?
If you are fulfilling the role of DPS, then I believe you should be matching everyone else's DPS. You are filling that role -- you don't enter a raid because you are a "hybrid." There is no "hybrid" role to fill in a raid.
Now, Paladins DO have a lot of utility, and as I've mentioned, they are akin to Shadow Priests in that from a balance perspective, perhaps they shouldn't do as high of DPS as everyone else because of all the non-DPS abilities they offer the raid.
But this has NOTHING to do with being a hybrid
-- it has to do with the design of Ret Paladins.
Post by
299926
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
387114
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.